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We are imperfect because we are GIFTED choice.
Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by DeadSeraph
We are imperfect because we are GIFTED choice.
Is it really choice when "God" knows exactly what we'll do, and allows it? That's not our choice, that's his.
Assuming the story is true, I think "God" had more choice in this whole deal than any of us. Considering he can end it, fix it, change it, start it over, copy it, or abandon it at any time with no repercussions on his end whatsoever, I think he has a crapload more choice than we ever did.
And you still think it's fair?
I would rather my little girl love me because she wants to, than because she has to (as the latter is contrary to the nature of love).
He likened his illustration to how our free will is within the bounds of omniscience. Essentially, God has "drawn" every possible path and obstacle you can take and over come. It's up to you which path you choose. But looking at it in that dimension, he knows where all outcomes lead. So no matter what you choose, He knows.
Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by defcon5
But "God" knows everyone who will ever go to hell, if the Bible is perfectly accurate. And he still doesn't change anything. Which means he WANTS half of us to burn forever.
Furthermore, the king of hell, "Satan", was created by "God"...and you can bet that he knew exactly what he was doing when he made that happen. So he designed hell for us, designed a creation that would betray him and trick Adam and Eve and rule the fiery pits that would torment us for being exactly the way he created us...
Does this seem at all fair to you? From my perspective, we had the short end of the stick from the very beginning. And "God"s laughing at us all this time because we're too meek to call him on it.
See, the only part that doesn't make sense about the Bible and "God", is how we're still worshipping the jerk. It's no wonder we're all violent and barbaric...after all the time we spend selling our soul to a being whose existence is questionable, let alone its right to our souls, I'm not surprised that we no longer have the integrity to actually behave honorably.edit on 6-9-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)
Why should I believe or have faith that your concept of fair and just have my best interest in mind?
Nope, birds don't sow, reap (harvest all at once), nor gather food into barns. They go and work for their food every day. And they have these migratory patterns that are a pretty neat gift, so that they shouldn't have to.
25 "For this reason I say to you, do not be worried about your life, as to what you will eat or what you will drink; nor for your body, as to what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? 26 "Look at the birds of the air, that they do not sow, nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not worth much more than they?
Just had a buddy that was told by his doctor, this past year, whom the doctor told him that his stress level (aka: worry) was going to send him to an early grave. Dude quit his job, what was providing for his future, because that future wasn't going to exist by the way he was providing for it.
27 "And who of you by being worried can add a single hour to his life?
1. What is God clothing people with? Is it just covering for the body that's going to die? Considering what's following, I doubt this is just about clothing.
28 "And why are you worried about clothing? Observe how the lilies of the field grow; they do not toil nor do they spin, 29 yet I say to you that not even Solomon in all his glory clothed himself like one of these. 30 "But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith!
1. Ah, the conclusion, which usually expands upon the opening. Orly? Look, Christ was in the habit of stating something, then giving examples, then adding further detailing for a fuller conclusion. Actually rather like how an essay is still written.
31 "Do not worry then, saying, `What will we eat?' or `What will we drink?' or `What will we wear for clothing?' 32 "For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. 34 "So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
Originally posted by jiggerj
In another thread it was suggested that I read the New Testament. Admittedly, it's been years since I've done this, but I used to read it often. Like the religious today, I allowed my eyes to glaze over the utterly ridiculous parts. I don't do that anymore. For instance, the following are considered the wise words of Jesus:
"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes?
If this is such great advice why don't we all just quit our jobs. Let's teach our kids that when they grow up they have no need to save money for the future, no need to spend money on food and clothing. Yep, real super advice.
----------------------------------------
And then there's this from the NT.
Matthew 27: The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
Really? I mean, REALLY? And the mature religious adults with an IQ over 80 believe this happened? Come on now.
-------------------------------------
Religion has been an ongoing conspiracy against the masses for thousands of years. Isn't it time to really look at what you're buying into?
edit on 9/4/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by jiggerj
And then there's this from the NT.
Matthew 27: The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus’ resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
Really? I mean, REALLY? And the mature religious adults with an IQ over 80 believe this happened? Come on now.
Lots and lots of the bible was altered by the Romans to hide its message, but don't think that all of it is lies because it's not, much of it has truth in it, you just have to dig a little to find it.
Paul tells us that the Christian's goal with respect to material things is godliness with contentment. Godliness in Paul's vocabulary means the genuine Christian life, a faith-relationship with God and a new way of life. Contentment is a Pauline word in the New Testament (2 Cor 9:8; compare Phil 4:11). It had a prominent place in Stoic philosophy, where it defined an attitude of "self-sufficiency," meaning detachment or independence from things or possessions. Contentment came from within. Paul approved of this idea but naturally supplied a Christian basis for it: "I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. . . . I can do everything through him who gives me strength" (Phil 4:11, 13). Thus for Paul the Christian goal is a genuine relationship with God, our source of contentment, and a healthy detachment from material things. This combination is great gain. In contrast to 6:5, gain here is measured according to spiritual rather than material value. Eternal benefits are surely promised, but the focus is on how the believer with this healthy perspective can avoid the many pitfalls of greed in the present life.The Eternal Perspective (6:7)
Originally posted by trekwebmaster
reply to post by jiggerj
Jigger, why the sour grapes?
Why go all that way and use time and hard work if you don't plan on acknowledging the answer?
Originally posted by defcon5
Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
And there is really not that much difference fundamentally from the Catholics or the Lutherans. At least to me there is not.
There are HUGE differences between the Lutheran and Catholic faiths, and it would take days to go over them all. Just to list a few of the biggies off the top of my head.
1) Salvation through grace vs Salvation through faith and works.
2) Teaching in a loving God vs an angry God.
3) Belief in the Bible alone vs Belief in the Bible and Church Tradition (aka Roman Pagan tradition)
4) The use of intercessionaries, eg... Prayer to saints, Mary, etc.
5) Consubstantiation vs transubstantiation.
6) Purgatory.
These are but just a few of the bigger issues, there are thousands more...
As a matter of fact, in case you also missed it, Lutherans believe that the “little horn”, one of the Antichrists is found in the person of the Pontifex Maximus, or the Holy Pontiff. All by itself that should tell you that there is a MAJOR difference between these two faiths.
Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
They are both very ritualistic and don't allow you to ask questions.
I never had too much problem with asking any questions in the Lutheran Church, though sometimes I found that the people I was asking didn't have an answer and would fall back on the cliche that you have to have “faith”.
Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
Instead of Religion I've found that if I nurture my own personal relationship with God it is much better for me spiritually. But many people don't seem to know that they can do this. They feel that church is the only way to go because thats what they have been told their whole lives. If thats what works for you then good for you. It does'nt work for me however. My church is on the porch with my coffee in the mornings. I don't have to be judged, give money to anyone, confess my sins to anyone and God listens to me just as much as he does anyone else that seeks him.
As long as you realize that you are not gaining salvation through your own “works”, and that it still comes through Christ and the Holy Spirit, then I guess that there is nothing wrong with this. As a Christian though, you should want to have other Christian fellowship.
Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
And I do believe that I am ultimately in control of my Salvation. If I turn away from God, then I will suffer an existence without him. As long as i want to be with God however, he will never ever turn me away.
As long as you remember:
Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast.
Salvation does not come from you, it can only come from God...
Originally posted by Cancerwarrior
Thats another problem I have with the church in general. They say that God has a special place for all the sinners who do evil, full of fire and brimstone and suffering where he will send you for all eternity to burn in fire 7 times hotter than the hottest flame on earth........but he loves you......lol.
This is a product of the Roman Catholic Church through much of the Middle ages. Most of the imagery of hell comes from this, there is very little of it in the actual Bible itself. You might also enjoy reading the 'Apocalypse of Peter', which several of the Church fathers believed was divinely inspired.
It seems to me that Hell has become sort of the Elephant in the room with Religion nowadays. Just don't talk about it, focus on how God loves you and sent his son for you and ignore the things we don't like. After all, they gotta keep people coming to church and putting money in that collection plate and preaching about unpleasant things in the Bible might make them not want to come back.
Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by MamaJ
But how can we find at-one-ment if we are constantly dividing ourselves from one another in an effort to make ourselves feel better about what we've done with the world?
We have to accept the past in order to embrace the present and change the future. Half of our race isn't willing to open its eyes yet, and the other half is busy convincing itself that its eyes are already open.
We have to stop lying to ourselves before we can do anything else.
How do you change millions of people's way of thinking? The only way to pull this amount of people together is a disaster....
Originally posted by ALightBreeze
reply to post by MamaJ
How do you change millions of people's way of thinking? The only way to pull this amount of people together is a disaster....
...or create a religion
Christianity is the Sicarii movement of Judas the Galilean deliberately blurred and transformed. The Romans transformed the history of the cult of the militant Maccabean Messiah into the history
of Christianity.
At the end of the 66-73 C.E. war [Flavius] Josephus recorded that no matter how Titus tortured the
Sicarii, they refused to call him "Lord." To circumvent the Jews' religious stubbornness, the Flavians therefore created a religion that worshiped Caesar without its followers knowing it.
Billions have been fooled.