When will America be #2?

a reply to: Vroomfondel


If the US goes down, so does the world. What this means is even in your dystopian view, America will still be the better place to live compared to all the other 1st world nations.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
a reply to: Vroomfondel


If the US goes down, so does the world. What this means is even in your dystopian view, America will still be the better place to live compared to all the other 1st world nations.

No one has gone bankrupt because they found themselves needing serious medical treatment in the UK, Canada and various other countries around the globe, Russia and China included.

How many have lost everything in the US because they found themselves or a loved one needing medical help?

The US ain't all that and some. It may portray itself as the land of milk and honey, the American dream, and all that, but it's far from it. you ain't got $$$$ you ain't got #.

a reply to: Slayer

always seen Babylon rome britain and usa as hyper powers in the context of the world they existed in..

only a hyper power can bring about a peace like pax Romana/Britannia/Americana

the usa over took the british empire in a power exchange process that lasted nearly 100 years.. it started with the first great depression in the late 1800s when the us overtook the uk economically then mid ww2 when it overtook the uk militarily, and the post ww2 when it overtook the uk financially but it wasn't until the late 1960s when the us$ took reserve status away from sterling.

the Nazis and japan thought they could short circuit the process.. as i am sure russia did/does.. currently both are super powers like Japan and the Nazis germany was..

in this the us needs the uk not for any soft or hard power but knowledge (reserve currency ect). the way the us democrats have taken to treating all the red countries as enemies (Britain/russia/china) leaves the uk little space but to eventually pivot back to side with china, the uk/china golden era was knowledge exchange as the uk has nothing else to offer.

these are also the key things the eu loses in not being able to come to win win terms with britain being unable to deal with the uk removes the eu as a potential super power as it to loses that knowledge to either the usa or china.

with the eu pivoting back to china the uk won't be far behind..

so we are fast approaching a point when us allies will continue to throw their lot in with a multipolar world led by china.. from there its only time before the us like uk and rome vanishes in the distance..

in terms of time outside a global war it'll be 50 to 100 years though a war will speed up the process just as ww2 did..

originally posted by: nickyw
a reply to: Slayer

always seen Babylon rome britain and usa as hyper powers in the context of the world they existed in..

only a hyper power can bring about a peace like pax Romana/Britannia/Americana

the usa over took the british empire in a power exchange process that lasted nearly 100 years.. it started with the first great depression in the late 1800s when the us overtook the uk economically then mid ww2 when it overtook the uk militarily, and the post ww2 when it overtook the uk financially but it wasn't until the late 1960s when the us$ took reserve status away from sterling.

the Nazis and japan thought they could short circuit the process.. as i am sure russia did/does.. currently both are super powers like Japan and the Nazis germany was..

in this the us needs the uk not for any soft or hard power but knowledge (reserve currency ect). the way the us democrats have taken to treating all the red countries as enemies (Britain/russia/china) leaves the uk little space but to eventually pivot back to side with china, the uk/china golden era was knowledge exchange as the uk has nothing else to offer.

these are also the key things the eu loses in not being able to come to win win terms with britain being unable to deal with the uk removes the eu as a potential super power as it to loses that knowledge to either the usa or china.

with the eu pivoting back to china the uk won't be far behind..

so we are fast approaching a point when us allies will continue to throw their lot in with a multipolar world led by china.. from there its only time before the us like uk and rome vanishes in the distance..

in terms of time outside a global war it'll be 50 to 100 years though a war will speed up the process just as ww2 did..

But you are forgetting that the political alignment of the UK is much closer to right-wing authoritarianism in recent years, and that is at odds with where most of Europe aligns politically, so the motive will not be the same as Europe's.

a reply to: Logicon

there is nothing right wing about the UKs main political parties as all trying to be clones of the US democrats to appease them while walking a fine line with China, that was the game of the cameron years.

the pro sino cameron lot that lost the brexit vote now make up the bulk of this gov and are appointing the same pro sino types too policy think tanks and to the bank of england.. alongside that the city is still focused on internationalising the rmb and in keeping its status as writer and arbiter of international contracts, as you say the drivers are totally different to the eu.. but both motivated on surviving what's to come.

in terms of authoritarianism, its easy to see why, johnson appointed a bcp member to lead sage/covid response, a number of other bcp members appear dotted through his administration which led to the argument on the left that his was a libertarian communist administration but ultimately the conservatives had no idea what to do with their win, so less authoritarian and more a admin that needs to be led by the nose by others.

the worse thing for Europe is not this establishment cluelessness but rather the populist discontent bubbling away the incompetence is creating as it will drive the way policy looks in the end.. now less farage and the plague island stuff and more terf island stuff, which is also a threat the the us democrats as it is to china.

the on the grpound situation is we are now down to one leader saying 100% of women don't have willies and the other saying 99% of women don't have willies and this is where british politics has ended up.. it needs a reboot.

originally posted by: nickyw
a reply to: Logicon

there is nothing right wing about the UKs main political parties as all trying to be clones of the US democrats to appease them while walking a fine line with China, that was the game of the cameron years.

the pro sino cameron lot that lost the brexit vote now make up the bulk of this gov and are appointing the same pro sino types too policy think tanks and to the bank of england.. alongside that the city is still focused on internationalising the rmb and in keeping its status as writer and arbiter of international contracts, as you say the drivers are totally different to the eu.. but both motivated on surviving what's to come.

in terms of authoritarianism, its easy to see why, johnson appointed a bcp member to lead sage/covid response, a number of other bcp members appear dotted through his administration which led to the argument on the left that his was a libertarian communist administration but ultimately the conservatives had no idea what to do with their win, so less authoritarian and more a admin that needs to be led by the nose by others.

the worse thing for Europe is not this establishment cluelessness but rather the populist discontent bubbling away the incompetence is creating as it will drive the way policy looks in the end.. now less farage and the plague island stuff and more terf island stuff, which is also a threat the the us democrats as it is to china.

the on the grpound situation is we are now down to one leader saying 100% of women don't have willies and the other saying 99% of women don't have willies and this is where british politics has ended up.. it needs a reboot.

But how does the post Johnson government suddenly become pro Sino?

The political commentary coming out of the UK seems to be taking a much more aggressive stance with China.

It could be that the UK is trying to appease the US with its more aggressive stance, but there is nothing I see from either the US, UK or Europe that looks more friendly towards China.

If anything, relations clearly have soured.

originally posted by: ShadowXIX


Megapower is really used to described going beyond a Superpower, Hyperpower like American Mad Man said is the same thing.

Zcheng interesting choice in Japan to join the club they are a great economic nation in their own right.They dont seem to like or be liked by the nations in their area. A Union of East Asia countries China , Japan, S Korea (or even better a unified Korea) would be one heck of a world power.

Japan is losing its people. It is now in a minus growth time. Currently there are a bit over 3 million foreign residents in Japan as permanent residents .
I most likely see these people will in the future be asked to join the SDF of Japan as reserve statis .

originally posted by: musicismagic

originally posted by: ShadowXIX


Megapower is really used to described going beyond a Superpower, Hyperpower like American Mad Man said is the same thing.

Zcheng interesting choice in Japan to join the club they are a great economic nation in their own right.They dont seem to like or be liked by the nations in their area. A Union of East Asia countries China , Japan, S Korea (or even better a unified Korea) would be one heck of a world power.

Japan is losing its people. It is now in a minus growth time. Currently there are a bit over 3 million foreign residents in Japan as permanent residents .
I most likely see these people will in the future be asked to join the SDF of Japan as reserve statis .

Japan seems to have already gone their own way and broke away from the agreement of not buying Russian oil recently.

But the tensions with North Korea will likely still see Japan wanting to align themselves with the US, despite whatever reservations they have about being told not to buy Russian oil.

It certainly is an interesting period, in terms of which old alliances will stay and go, and which new ones will be formed...

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

No one has gone bankrupt because they found themselves needing serious medical treatment in the UK, Canada and various other countries around the globe, Russia and China included.

How many have lost everything in the US because they found themselves or a loved one needing medical help?

People say this and never look at the numbers. The overall cost for healthcare in the US is stupid high compared to other countries but is much better than most. I can get an MRI tomorrow as example. Last year I had a rotator cuff repaired and it took like less than a week to get in and done. I'm insured so it cost me zero, but the bill was like 25k.

Less than 8% of Americans are uninsured, and it is because they mainly fall into the category of not poor enough for Medicaid, not old enough for Medicare, don't get insurance through their work, (122 million and their families do) and then elect not to get it on their own. Many in this group are young people...It's like people living in a flood zone and do not buy flood zone insurance on their house, they just roll the dice each year.

When you look at social medicine it has a lot of issues too. The first one is you pay for it out of your check no matter what, so whether people elect to pay in America, or just get it as part of their job, poor, or old (92%) people are paying one way or another. The 8% who roll the dice is on them, but it is that group that you and so many others bring up as your shining example of why the best healthcare system in the world is so much worse than yours.

BTW, look at France, who pays the healthcare bill when the Government is broke? I ended up paying 8% federal last year, and that other 30%+ I would pay in socialized countries would buy a hell of a lot of life insurance for me then what those countries could possibly give as socialized medicine.

The US ain't all that and some. It may portray itself as the land of milk and honey, the American dream, and all that, but it's far from it. you ain't got $$$$ you ain't got #.

The point is America could be independent from the world in food, energy etc... Other places are not so good, even China.

originally posted by: Xtrozero

originally posted by: Soloprotocol

No one has gone bankrupt because they found themselves needing serious medical treatment in the UK, Canada and various other countries around the globe, Russia and China included.

How many have lost everything in the US because they found themselves or a loved one needing medical help?

People say this and never look at the numbers. The overall cost for healthcare in the US is stupid high compared to other countries but is much better than most. I can get an MRI tomorrow as example. Last year I had a rotator cuff repaired and it took like less than a week to get in and done. I'm insured so it cost me zero, but the bill was like 25k.

Less than 8% of Americans are uninsured, and it is because they mainly fall into the category of not poor enough for Medicaid, not old enough for Medicare, don't get insurance through their work, (122 million and their families do) and then elect not to get it on their own. Many in this group are young people...It's like people living in a flood zone and do not buy flood zone insurance on their house, they just roll the dice each year.

When you look at social medicine it has a lot of issues too. The first one is you pay for it out of your check no matter what, so whether people elect to pay in America, or just get it as part of their job, poor, or old (92%) people are paying one way or another. The 8% who roll the dice is on them, but it is that group that you and so many others bring up as your shining example of why the best healthcare system in the world is so much worse than yours.

BTW, look at France, who pays the healthcare bill when the Government is broke? I ended up paying 8% federal last year, and that other 30%+ I would pay in socialized countries would buy a hell of a lot of life insurance for me then what those countries could possibly give as socialized medicine.

The US ain't all that and some. It may portray itself as the land of milk and honey, the American dream, and all that, but it's far from it. you ain't got $$$$ you ain't got #.

The point is America could be independent from the world in food, energy etc... Other places are not so good, even China.

Healthcare is pretty poor in China, even though they are the 2nd largest economy.

A lot of Chinese hospitals lack basic hygiene facilities, such as hand soap in a hospital bathroom...

Things might have improved in richer Hospitals in China, but a lot are way behind Western healthcare.

The UK used to have one of the best universal healthcare systems in the world a decade ago, but has fallen behind many other countries now.

I think the way health insurance operates in the US can seem pretty inhumane, but with tighter regulation, I think it could be the best in the world.

I think the problem for the US, is big pharma's insantiable appetite for more and more profit, which means continued rising costs. But this is not new, because there is a greedflation happening everywhere right now in the world for lots of different things.

originally posted by: Logicon

Healthcare is pretty poor in China, even though they are the 2nd largest economy.
A lot of Chinese hospitals lack basic hygiene facilities, such as hand soap in a hospital bathroom...
Things might have improved in richer Hospitals in China, but a lot are way behind Western healthcare.

What people do not comprehend is that MOST countries have really crappy healthcare and living standards outside of their big cities, so people wait a long ass time for treatment and can even die waiting.

The UK used to have one of the best universal healthcare systems in the world a decade ago, but has fallen behind many other countries now.

It's a lot of propaganda pushing some fake narrative that American healthcare is crappy.

I think the way health insurance operates in the US can seem pretty inhumane, but with tighter regulation, I think it could be the best in the world.

I think the problem for the US, is big pharma's insantiable appetite for more and more profit, which means continued rising costs. But this is not new, because there is a greedflation happening everywhere right now in the world for lots of different things.

We need to revamp the insurance industry. We also need to have maintenance healthcare outside of the insurance umbrella where you can go see like a nurse partitioner for routine health needs and be cheap per visit. The only insurance we need is catacrotic insurance, which would be much cheaper and just pay out of pocket for everything else at a price set outside of insurance that we see might set a doctor visit at 600 bucks and just pay like 30 bucks straight up cash taking out the middleman. That is one area other countries do better than America is that they have a system in place for very cheap routine healthcare needs. My kid gets pink eye, so how much should I pay to see a nurse partitioner to tell me that and give me a prescription, as example.

originally posted by: Xtrozero
a reply to: Vroomfondel


If the US goes down, so does the world. What this means is even in your dystopian view, America will still be the better place to live compared to all the other 1st world nations.

"If the US goes down, so does the world." That is a very elitist view and may be true while the dollar is the main reserve currency. If it is not, the US going down doesn't mean the end for anyone but the US. Other nations will lose the benefit of our tax dollars gifted to them each year and they will lose a large portion of the consumer base. But their nation will not be brought to its knees by such events.

As far as America still being the better place to live compared to all the other 1st world nations, I'm not sure its the best place now let alone after a complete financial failure. In a subjective wellness study based on annual energy consumption it was determined that the average person in the US uses 2x the energy of the average person in Ireland yet both are equally happy in their lives. The average person in the US uses 37X more energy than someone in the Phillipenes yet they are equally happy with their lives. "Best or better" is extremely subjective.

There is a financial reckoning coming, sooner or later, but it IS coming. People are going to have to learn to be happy with less. Our economy, the entire industrial complex for that matter, is structured on the belief that there will always be more...more whatever it is we need at any given time. We know that is no longer the case. Resources are getting harder to find and more costly to acquire. Supply line interruptions are only the beginning. Right now the products we need are there, we just cant get them to the end user. Very soon there will be a time when the product isn't there to begin with. We will be forced to live within a much tighter budget and with less of everything.

We have lived with less in the past and we will again in the future. But there will be a window of time when that adjustment takes place that will be very uncomfortable for most Americans.

Its not intentionally dystopian, its just the truth.

originally posted by: Vroomfondel

"If the US goes down, so does the world." That is a very elitist view and may be true while the dollar is the main reserve currency. If it is not, the US going down doesn't mean the end for anyone but the US. Other nations will lose the benefit of our tax dollars gifted to them each year and they will lose a large portion of the consumer base. But their nation will not be brought to its knees by such events.

Do you see a scenario where only America blows up while the rest of the world is fine? The massive amount the US provides the world is staggering, also the last time we went isolationist WWII happened. Take the leash off of China, Russia and other countries with nothing to lose now and you better pop some popcorn with that show.

As far as America still being the better place to live compared to all the other 1st world nations, I'm not sure its the best place now let alone after a complete financial failure.

The reality is you might be better off in other 3rd world nations... As to the best place now... I have lived in France, Germany, Japan, Korea, PI, Australia with a good amount of time in 70+ countries and none of them even comes close to what America offers as example.

In a subjective wellness study based on annual energy consumption it was determined that the average person in the US uses 2x the energy of the average person in Ireland yet both are equally happy in their lives. The average person in the US uses 37X more energy than someone in the Phillipenes yet they are equally happy with their lives. "Best or better" is extremely subjective.

I disagree... you ever live in the PI? I actually have a place there in Manila and one in a Provence. It is really crappy living anyway you look at it. This doesn't mean I don't like visiting there, but hell no I would not live there. Just the idea of central heat and AC, hot water, oven, large refrigerator/freezer, a decent transportation so on and so forth are just NOT there in so many other countries... Oh and Costco... Shopping for basics can be a nightmare with hardly any selection, if at all. It is truly crazy as to what Americans take for granted that so much of the rest of the world doesn't have. Within 20 mins of my house in the US, I can buy almost anything the world has to offer. Even a place like Japan is seriously limited compared to the US and I lived in Toyko for 5 years.

There is a financial reckoning coming, sooner or later, but it IS coming. People are going to have to learn to be happy with less.

I agree, but it will affect the world too. China got one coming that is going to truly change that country. EU is going broke too and so what happens when a socialist country can no longer afford their population.

We will be forced to live within a much tighter budget and with less of everything.

I agree, but other places will be catastrophic. The reason why I say 3rd world might be better because they already have little to lose, so even if their lives are kind of crappy they will just go on as normal.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Do you see a scenario where only America blows up while the rest of the world is fine?

I am not saying no one will feel it when it happens, but, nations that have opted for alternative reserve currency will not be affected as much as you might think. International trade will still happen easily for them and any reserve supply nation, such as China, will go to great lengths to make sure they are happy with the transition.

The reality is you might be better off in other 3rd world nations... As to the best place now... I have lived in France, Germany, Japan, Korea, PI, Australia with a good amount of time in 70+ countries and none of them even comes close to what America offers as example.

While I respect your life experience you must acknowledge that your opinion is subjective. How many people in Europe are driven to bankruptcy each year for medical bills? There are alternatives to the American way of doing things that in many ways work far better for the average citizen. No one should be driven to bankruptcy for an unfavorable diagnosis from a doctor. No one should have to do without needed medicine because they cant afford it.

I disagree... you ever live in the PI? I actually have a place there in Manila and one in a Provence. It is really crappy living anyway you look at it. This doesn't mean I don't like visiting there, but hell no I would not live there. Just the idea of central heat and AC, hot water, oven, large refrigerator/freezer, a decent transportation so on and so forth are just NOT there in so many other countries... Oh and Costco...

While I truly do respect and appreciate your personal experience I also see your view as very Ameri-centric - central heat and A/C, hot water, etc. These things are hell to live without for an American, I agree. Especially the last two generations. With the exception of a few short-lived events most of us have never lived without them. However, to people who never had them its no big deal. Yes, they would likely be more happy with them than without, but subjective wellness, accent on the word subjective, can be fine for them even without the conveniences that we take for granted.

This reminds me of a scene in the Yellowstone pre-quel "1923". Dutton hears a salesman talking about all the time someone would save with an automatic washing machine. His response was something along the lines of, "So they can use all that spare time working to pay the power company for all that convenience."

Oh, and don't mess with my Costco...them's fightin' words...

a reply to: Xtrozero

The EU's weakness is the Euro currency which all the other countries are tied into. If one country goes into a major recession, then everyone else suffers as well.

I think there is a chance it will be one of the main causes for the demise of the European Union, with some European countries wanting to pull out of the Euro to shield their economy. Italy in recent years for example has talked about pulling out of the Euro, and I'm sure there have been others as well.

What will be left of the EU will be something like a trading block, rather than having a political commission as well. Probably not something not too different to the European Common Market as it was once known.

The UK I think will lose its power through the eventual abolishment of the monarchy. When that happens, I think England will be even more closely aligned with the US.

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
How many people in Europe are driven to bankruptcy each year for medical bills? There are alternatives to the American way of doing things that in many ways work far better for the average citizen. No one should be driven to bankruptcy for an unfavorable diagnosis from a doctor. No one should have to do without needed medicine because they cant afford it.

Can't afford it or decide not to afford it... two different scenarios there. I'm not bashing social healthcare, but we all need to understand there is only so much to go around in their population, so they end up picking and choosing who gets what and who doesn't. That there is inevitable no matter how you slice it. Some countries with small populations do better than others with larger populations. In the end the work force pays for it all one way or another and the money is not unlimited. Increases in wait times for medically necessary care cost lives and there are a number of studies on that. As example in the US about 170 people die per 1000 strokes. In UK that is 250 per 1000 and CA is 280 per 1000. This is not because they lack the medical level of the US, it is because of the delays their socialized system causes.

So I guess, pick your poison, but at least in the US you can choose to have insurance or not.

BTW, what do you say when someone's house burns down, and they tell you they lost everything since they decided not to get insurance?

However, to people who never had them its no big deal. Yes, they would likely be more happy with them than without, but subjective wellness, accent on the word subjective, can be fine for them even without the conveniences that we take for granted.

I agree a goat farmer in Afghanistan can see themself as rich because they have 20 goats. My house in Japan would have you sweating in the summer, and you could see the steam come off your piss in the winter, it was only comfortable for like 2 months a year. I'm just saying the quality of life really comes down to how many options/choices one has to pick from and when you go around the world those options/choices are limited compared to what we have in America.

We also need to understand that the poorest in America are above middle class by world standards...

a reply to: Xtrozero

You make some good points.

I feel very strongly about the meds and prices of healthcare in general in the US. Its partly the providers, but its mostly the insurance companies. When you are on SS and your meds cost more than your whole monthly check something is wrong with the system. Insurance companies used to complain about doctors ordering MRI's because they are so expensive and "not necessary" as far as the insurance companies were concerned. So they refused to pay for them. You can choose to pay for it out of your own pocket if you can. But that is in addition to the monthly deduction from your paycheck for insurance, as well as your co-pays and so on, or you can do without. So doctors have to order an x-ray they know isn't going to show anything useful. And you have to pay for it. And you have to wait for the results. Then you have to wait to get the CT scan your doctor will order next knowing it isn't going to show anything useful. And you have to pay for it. And you have to wait for the results. Then your doctor can order your MRI, which you have to pay for. And then wait for the results. The whole process costs at least twice what it should and takes three times as long because the insurance companies get to dictate what tests you should have instead of your doctor.

Socialized medicine has its problems too. Long waits at the very least. No one should die waiting in line for a life saving procedure. As you said, it really is a pick your poison situation.

I agree with much of what you said, except for the last line. The poorest in America have nothing and nothing to look forward to. Nothing means the same thing no matter what country you are in. We have more opportunities in this country, but not everyone gets one. Sometimes you just get dealt a bad hand and there is nothing to do but play it.

originally posted by: Vroomfondel
When you are on SS and your meds cost more than your whole monthly check something is wrong with the system.

I have had maybe 20+ MRIs in my life and never paid for one, as example... Medicare is under 300 per month for a couple and you can get supp insurance cheaply too. I agree there are examples out there but how uncommon are they. I guess it comes down to a socialized system is better for a person that didn't manage their life choices very well and it is just there no matter what even if not really good, and the US system is better for people that have managed their life choices to ensure they have insurance, have paid into Medicare etc.

The poorest in America have nothing and nothing to look forward to. Nothing means the same thing no matter what country you are in. We have more opportunities in this country, but not everyone gets one. Sometimes you just get dealt a bad hand and there is nothing to do but play it.

I guess you do not know what middle class by world standards actually is. The global middle-income range translates to an annual income of $14,600 to $29,200 for a family of four. This also means they have a place to live with electricity, clean running water, have at least one mode of transportation (can be a scooter), all the kids including the girls go to school, eat 2 or 3 meals per day.

a reply to: Xtrozero

We also need to understand that the poorest in America are above middle class by world standards...

I try to remind folk that by third world standards, there are no real poor people in America.

In most places there are places where they can get food and or shelter if they want it.

The church I attend has provided housing for at least 10 families just in the last year. We have a local pantry that provides groceries for those that ask, and numerous other churches provide these services and more.

a reply to: Xtrozero

Thats you, not everyone.

I have had quite a few MRI's also. I pay at least part of every single one. The last one I had was $7200 - for one MRI. That was the only one I ever had that cost that much and I only paid for part of it, but still. As for people who have med/pharma bills they cant afford, I have seen that firsthand. My wife's mother lived with us until she passed away. One year there was a change in medicare coverage and her entire check was not enough to cover her meds. My wife and I paid for the remainder for that whole year, and any other bills she had. Her check was $1600 a month and she was coming up $200 short just on meds.

I am familiar with global middle class. I am referring to the poorest of the poor in America. I know most people don't see them, but I have. They are real. Its hard for most Americans to imagine people right here in this country who die of exposure or malnutrition. That is something that happens in other countries and someone makes a documentary about it. But not here in the USA - it could never happen. Well, it does happen. I am not trying to draw a comparison to other nations where the problem is much worse. I am just being honest about this nation. It is a great nation, but we have to stop thinking everything is SO great here and everyone has everything they need because it simply isn't true.

BTW, I am not talking about immigrants who snuck in under the radar and live in a cardboard box by the side of the highway. No, the immigrants are doing just fine. I am talking about American citizens who don't fit the profile we like to project so we just look the other way and send billions of dollars to other countries instead of taking care of our own.