The CIA and the UFO Mythos

Originally posted by chr0naut

...I think that another thing is that the CIA handlers were applying known behaviorist theory (read up on B. F, Skinner & Ivan Pavlov's work for background on this; where the withholding of a programmed stimulus actually reinforces the training) and also giving us some "debunk-able" cases to make the manufactured cases appear more solid...

...They may also have been doing the same thing with other "strange tales" too, topics which they were incubating with a view to later manipulating public opinion (Philadelphia Experiment, Red Mercury & etc), if required.

The real issue may have been that the CIA did such a magnificent snow job that, with the compartmentalization of information, even they could not tell the truth from the fiction anymore.

Some of those behaviorist names have hit me before and what a brilliant point you make with the Philadelphia Experiment & Red Mercury etc.

And both you and Quaesitor also made excellent points in regards compartmentalization. One of the challenges in this subject is that it seems apparent that the spookies have used the phenomenon for various goals and that in itself makes it hard to collate a thesis. We have to compartmentalize their varied objectives as well it seems to me.

Getting into social engineering and mind control gets sticky, and yet there seems to be some cross-pollinization going on in those arenas tied to UFOS. The trick there is not to fall for the red herrings & strange loops that have been introduced into the subject but to follow the subtle leads. At least I hope that's possible.

One case in point seems to rear it's head in regards Col. John Alexander. He's been vocal and active--and even ominous--when folk have started to put ufos and mind control together. I say where's there's smoke there's fire.

I have a little material on that aspect that I'll try and put together and if anyone else can help me on that angle it will be MUCH appreciated.

In the past he got pretty tweaked at Martin Cannon and Armen Victoria when they pursued that line of thinking and his latest book REEKS of sly but silly disinfo.

ALSO: Did anyone find the Oberg letter to CSETI revealing to any degree? He seems rather passionate and dropped some fairly detailed hints that should at least raise an eyebrow. For anyone interested in that aspect, follow the link for a broader perspective than just the letter itself.

Thanks, Chronaut.

Originally posted by wigit
Speaking from personal experiences, I think I agree. Something stinks. Maybe they've(TPTB) just been 'uber' practising with their MANY different toys and that's how the UFO scenario got so complicated. If that's true, then they sure have a great collection. I'm not talking about a UFO collection, I'm talking about all the ways they communicate an "alien" visitation and all it's frills on a person or people. I would include suggestion, mind-reading or control, (or both) as well as all the other magic tricks they appear to do.

But maybe the chaos amongst UFO lore isn't all accidental. Maybe it's deliberate. But what for? Just to make us think the "aliens" are real.

Funny you mention the word "chaos" in relation to your points. It's a word worth pondering in regards this subject.

Hey bud thanks for the reply and you do make some fair points about that cheeky intelligence octopus and the UFO organisation FUFOR - as for Don Berliner's article concerning the CIA's 'spy plane' report, he does mention the phrase 'demonstrably incorrect' so I guess all it's a matter of doing is checking if there actually was an increase or decrease in reports after August 1955; if hallmarks of UFO reports from that era actually did involve highly unusual flight characteristics; if the CIA actually did conspire with Project Blue Book to mislabel alleged U2 sightings as 'obscure types of atmospheric phenomena' and if the total number of these alleged Bluebook reports is only actually three dozen.

Here's another interesting article on the subject which also bring up the points that the spy plane flights were too few in number to account for all the alleged UFO reports; that the flights were carried out in areas far from public view and that the U-2 and A-12 flew at very high altitudes and were difficult to detect with the naked eye - there's also an interesting snippet concerning the then Project Bluebook Chief Robert Friend:

In 1997, Haines claimed that the CIA used UFO reports as cover for spy planes such as the U-2, and that the Air Force knowingly went along with this deception. Always ready to accept CIA material, the `New York Times' ingested the story - hook, line, and sinker. And thus another bogus claim became historical fact.

There are many problems with the claim. First, the CIA is never a credible source about its own history. After all, it is in business to deceive. Second, spy plane flights were too few in number to account for many UFO reports and they were carried out in areas far from public view. Third, the black U-2 and A-12 "Oxcart" flew at very high altitudes and were difficult to detect both visually and (in the case of the A-12) on radar. Fourth, UFO reports of the era bear little if any resemblance to the flight characteristics of high-altitude spy planes.

But most fatally, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Robert Friend, head of the Air Force's Project Blue Book from 1958 to 1963, later said there is absolutely no truth to the CIA's claims. Not only was Haines wrong about an agreement between the CIA and Air Force but Friend said he never received a single UFO report that he thought could be attributed to a spy plane.

link

I don't know if you've ever looked into the work of Terry Hansen but he's conducted quite a lot of research into the CIA's role in the UFO subject and his book 'The Missing Times' is well worth a read (excerpts) - here he is explaining how the CIA sponsered Robertson Panel managed the 'public perception' of the UFO subject and concluded that it was 'in the best interest of the U.S. Government to suppress media coverage of UFO sightings' - he also makes some revealing comments about the use of ridicule and precision propaganda techniques so the subject would be portrayed in a negative light thereby making people reluctant to report their experiences.





Whether or not the CIA actually wanted the American public to be 'reluctant to report their UFO experiences' I think it's fair to say there are some very good reasons to be extremely dubious about the conclusions of the CIA sponsered Robertson panel - whatever the case there are some statements below from former CIA Directors about the UFO subject which don't exactly jibe with their official line - maybe the first one sums it up best.

“Behind the scenes, high-ranking Air Force officers are soberly concerned about UFOs. But through official secrecy and ridicule, many citizens are led to believe that unknown flying objects are nonsense.”
Former CIA Director, Roscoe Hillenkoetter, public statement, 1960.



"Maximum security exists concerning the subject of UFOs."
CIA Director, Allen Dulles, 1955.



"The Central Intelligence Agency has reviewed the current situation concerning unidentified flying objects which have created extensive speculation in the press and have been the subject of concern to Government organizations... Since 1947, approximately 2,000 official reports of sightings have been received and of these, about 20% are as yet unexplained."
"It is my view that this situation has possible implications for our national security which transcend the interests of a single service. A broader, coordinated effort should be initiated to develop a firm scientific understanding of the several phenomena which apparently are involved in these reports..." (1952 memorandum to the National Security Council.)
General Walter Bedell Smith, Director of the CIA from 1950-53

Cheers.

reply to post by karl 12

Thanks, Karl12. I'm kind of sorry that I led off with the U2 thing because my only point with that was the undeniable fact that the intel agencies have used the phenomenon for their own varied and schizophrenic purposes.

I certainly don't suggest that spy planes are the answer to the ufo enigma. Far from it.

But I do suggest that if the spookies are hiding anything it would have more to do with the nature of the mystery, rather than flat out denial all the while hiding a crashed disc or some such.

In addition, the documentation looks pretty clear that they've actually hyped aspects of the phenomenon such as Majestic, Gulf Breeze, etc.

The question is what do they really want us to believe? WHY on one hand would they try and hush it up and on the other hand perpetuate the belief?

Maybe Majestic12 was a set-up, a strange loop, to disillusion folk once it was busted. But I'm not ready to buy that just yet. It increasingly looks like the CIA is into myth-making.

It's hard for me to trust guys like Stanton Friedman any longer. He's not only fairly easy to bamboozle, but he has left out aspects of cases in his "reporting" that don't fit his paradigm and I find that unforgivable in a ufologist.

Plus, he took money from Bruce Maccabee who we've already tied to the CIA.

I'm not convinced that the average person with an interest in UFOS has made up their own mind as much as the possibility that they've had it subtly & diabolically made up for them.

By writing off the evidence for psyops and not asking ourselves why (?) I don't believe an objective conclusion can be made or it's been made prematurely.

Doesn't mean a person's conclusion is necessarily wrong, but by ignoring certain issues it can only, at best, be a lucky guess. Of course, it's a guessing game anyway. Sheesh...I'm wearing me own lil' brain out running this maze. Where's the cheese danggit!

Peace, brudda.

There's been a lot of speculation about Michael Persinger's links to the CIA and I guess you have to mention him and his studies in this discussion.

It's interesting that Persinger has never once mentioned the "Pan effect" that many Shamans talk about as it is virtually identical to the experience he replicates in the laboratory.

If you know Persinger's work then this will seem overtly familiar if you don;t and read this, worth looking him up and comparing.

The "Pan effect" goes something akin to this. A person is walking in the total dark in a rural area when they begin to sense they are being watched. This often escalates into a blind panic where the person's flight or fight reflex is triggered and people just run as if their very lives are dependant on it. This effect is often more intense in country lanes with high banks and overhanging trees,

In some Shamanistic traditions this "panic attack" is caused by the person's treatment of animals and when, once alone or even with other people in the absolute dark of the countryside at night, it is the spirit of Pan doing to them that they dish out to the animals in their lives or animals in general. Now, obviously Persinger would say it is the brain being starved of stimuli and reacting on a primal level, the deep unconscious psyche, reaching back to its' ancestors and merely conjouring up and "making real", the many threats that once were serious concerns for a human in the dark in the wilds of the country.

What I would say is this and this comes from studying sites in Britain where we have a quite unique situation. A large population forced to live in areas where, in a larger country they might we ll have been left fallow. As much as Persinger's theory is fine in some situations there are, without doubt, parts of the country where that experience is far far more intense than others. I would say that where you find and specific area with tales "Spectral Black Dogs" that "Pan effect" will, more likely, be extremely intense and probably, not only involve simple "feelings" rather, actual visualisations. These can be "red orbs of light" floating through the trees, maybe even seemingly, tracking the person, to the classic "Black Dog" whose eyes often give the impression of being "afire".

Now, I would say this, any agency mucking around with any sort of Psy Op in one of those areas would likely receive a nasty shock by what the "guinea pigs" might observe and be absolutely sure happened to them. It might not surprise people that "Rendlesham Forest", is an area steeped in this sort of experience and people , even now, still report seeing "glowing red orbs" floating through the trees of the forest and that they are monitored and followed, by very real cars and other vehicles, when spending time in the area if they are not locals.

That would suggest the following. That certain areas of the world act as "amplifiers" for certain experiences and that, over the last 3 decades there is clandestine research going on in an attempt to further understand the reasons why and quite possibly try and recreate the experiences using technology that does not involve people wearing a helmet. It is quite a scary thought to imagine some executive having the ability to trigger these archetypal experiences in a person and i can understand why they might well attempt to do so.

Originally posted by FireMoon
There's been a lot of speculation about Michael Persinger's links to the CIA and I guess you have to mention him and his studies in this discussion....

...I would say that where you find and specific area with tales "Spectral Black Dogs" that "Pan effect" will, more likely, be extremely intense and probably, not only involve simple "feelings" rather, actual visualisations....

Now, I would say this, any agency mucking around with any sort of Psy Op in one of those areas would likely receive a nasty shock by what the "guinea pigs" might observe and be absolutely sure happened to them. It might not surprise people that "Rendlesham Forest", is an area steeped in this sort of experience and people , even now, still report seeing "glowing red orbs" floating through the trees of the forest and that they are monitored and followed, by very real cars and other vehicles, when spending time in the area if they are not locals....

Rather than his God Helmet satisfying his scientific-materialist mind it actually seems to have led him into the anomalous world after all. Been meaning to look into him more since I heard that, so gracias for the reminder.

Yeah, Persinger's another character with some interesting connections to the intelligence world and to some other far-out mind-manipulation-type cats such as John Lilly.

And Rendlesham you say? I'm already in danger of of having my tinfoil confiscated or doubled-layered--not sure which my punishment would be in this case. Dare I mention the theory that it smelled an awful lot like a psychological testing operation?

That's not to say that it couldn't have had an anomalous aspect at the same time. When spooks of one ilk play with spooks of the other…no telling what crazy kind o' mind-boffing comes about.

Thanks, FireMoon.

Dr Michael Persinger of Laurentian University quickly became the science darling of skeptics and atheists a decade ago with news of his 'God Helmet', which appeared to show that 'sensed presence' of supernatural entities (and/or 'God') may be simply due to magnetic disturbance of the brain. Since then however, Persinger has not made himself an overly attractive science reference for skeptics as he has been involved with, and claims to have achieved positive results in, experimental parapsychology.

Earlier this year, Persinger gave the following lecture, titled "No More Secrets". In it, he detailed his theories on the connection between magnetic fields and the brain, in particular how this relationship could facilitate telepathy and remote viewing. He notes particular experiments and individuals (Ingo Swann, Sean Harribance) that seem to give evidence supporting his theories, and makes some fairly extraordinary claims which I'm sure will lead to some debate.

www.dailygrail.com...

reply to post by The GUT

I believe the ufo phenomenon has an anomalous basis. The point here is HOW & WHY have the waters been muddied by the intel agencies?

Because theyre in cahoots with them. It's collusion. Theyre part of the Brotherhood of the Serpent, a.k.a. Synogogue of Satan. Interesting read on the Brotherhood of the Sepent if you ever get the chance. S.O.B.s have infiltrated every government in the world. I'm not talking about reptilians, but humans serving their fallen angel masters who often parade around as E.T.

Originally posted by The GUT

Originally posted by chr0naut

...I think that another thing is that the CIA handlers were applying known behaviorist theory (read up on B. F, Skinner & Ivan Pavlov's work for background on this; where the withholding of a programmed stimulus actually reinforces the training) and also giving us some "debunk-able" cases to make the manufactured cases appear more solid...

...They may also have been doing the same thing with other "strange tales" too, topics which they were incubating with a view to later manipulating public opinion (Philadelphia Experiment, Red Mercury & etc), if required.

The real issue may have been that the CIA did such a magnificent snow job that, with the compartmentalization of information, even they could not tell the truth from the fiction anymore.

Some of those behaviorist names have hit me before and what a brilliant point you make with the Philadelphia Experiment & Red Mercury etc.

And both you and Quaesitor also made excellent points in regards compartmentalization. One of the challenges in this subject is that it seems apparent that the spookies have used the phenomenon for various goals and that in itself makes it hard to collate a thesis. We have to compartmentalize their varied objectives as well it seems to me.

Getting into social engineering and mind control gets sticky, and yet there seems to be some cross-pollinization going on in those arenas tied to UFOS. The trick there is not to fall for the red herrings & strange loops that have been introduced into the subject but to follow the subtle leads. At least I hope that's possible.

One case in point seems to rear it's head in regards Col. John Alexander. He's been vocal and active--and even ominous--when folk have started to put ufos and mind control together. I say where's there's smoke there's fire.

I have a little material on that aspect that I'll try and put together and if anyone else can help me on that angle it will be MUCH appreciated.

In the past he got pretty tweaked at Martin Cannon and Armen Victoria when they pursued that line of thinking and his latest book REEKS of sly but silly disinfo.

ALSO: Did anyone find the Oberg letter to CSETI revealing to any degree? He seems rather passionate and dropped some fairly detailed hints that should at least raise an eyebrow. For anyone interested in that aspect, follow the link for a broader perspective than just the letter itself.

Thanks, Chronaut.

It seems to me that as they began to realize the absence of control over the disinfo topic that they would have implemented a protocol whereby they could identify planted information from that arising form other sources. Probably in the form of a key word or phrase that would seem OK but that would not be used in normal description.

I'd suggest a negative answer to an unasked question is the most likely, i.e: "it wasn't saucer shaped" or something equally innocuous.

Perhaps it would be worth going back over old interviews and doing some lexical analysis?

A wonderful insight ... Its time these CIA & US government tell's the people what they rightfully deserve to know about.The truth about UFO's & Alien's can't be hidden for too long.

Before the appearance of the MJ-12 papers...Lee Graham, a technician with a secret clearance working for Aerojet Electrosystems, Azusa, California, was contacted by William Moore…

…During the next few months Moore gave to the perplexed Graham a series of documents, all exhibiting security classification markings…and other material relating to UFOs and government involvement with aliens or alien technology.

Graham, whose livelihood depends on maintaining his security clearance, eventually took the documents to the Aerojet official in charge of security, and asked that both the documents and Moore be investigated by the Defense Investigative Service (DIS).

Ultimately, the documents were back in Graham's hands, marked "unclassified." Graham, however, became the object of intense scrutiny by the DIS.He repeatedly demanded that Moore be investigated for distributing documents that appeared to be extremely sensitive, and for exhibiting an identification card indistinguishable from those used by the many DIS agents that Graham had encountered.

But to the best of Graham's knowledge, Moore has never been interviewed by DIS or any other agency concerning these serious charges. It would be a simple matter for Pell's office to request an investigation of Moore on the basis of Graham's charges.

In 1987, Graham was paid an intimidating visit at his workplace by FBI Special Agent William Hurley, accompanied by a man in civilian clothes who did not identify himself, but who was later identified as no less than Major General Michael Kerby, USAF…Kerby appears to have been in command of the operational aspects of the "stealth" fighter aircraft, as well as other very sensitive aviation activities at Nellis AFB.

During the interview with Hurley and his companion, Graham was shown a document identifying the then Top Secret designation of the F-117 "Stealth" fighter, a piece of information Graham had tirelessly pursued through Freedom of Information Act requests. He was also given a form to sign, certifying that he had been given information "for which you have no need to know."

This very unusual action was followed by a lengthy "pep talk" in which Hurley and Kerby praised Graham for his work in disseminating the MJ-12 documents! Graham says that the bulk of the one hour interview concerned the MJ-12 papers.

The Trickster Materials by George P. Hansen

Take note of those last two sentences: "...Kerby praised Graham for his work in disseminating the MJ-12 documents! Graham says that the bulk of the one hour interview concerned the MJ-12 papers."

Now I ask: Did elements of the government encourage dissemination of the MJ12 docs? Why:

1.) To check for security leaks? Doesn't seem to fit the facts re the players they were leaked to.

2.) To discredit ufology? Doesn't seem to fit the facts re the players on the government side of the fence.

3.) To propagate a mythology for unknown reasons? Seems to fit the conditions best.

Originally posted by The GUT
Now I ask: Did elements of the government encourage dissemination of the MJ12 docs? Why:
1.) To check for security leaks? Doesn't seem to fit the facts re the players they were leaked to.
2.) To discredit ufology? Doesn't seem to fit the facts re the players on the government side of the fence.
3.) To propagate a mythology for unknown reasons? Seems to fit the conditions best.

I think it was a combination of all those reasons and more than we haven't figured out and probably never will. But the primary reason for the MJ12 documents, in my opinion, was to act as a distraction, to have people looking some other way and lead them down dead ends.

Just like when they needed Bennewitz looking away from Kirtland AFB, Myrna Hansen contacts and shows up at Bennewitz's house with her Dulce story — that still plagues some of ufology today — only a few months after Bennewitz contacted KAFB because of the strange lights he was seeing over the base.

Also, I think they were interested in seeing how and to whom would the information spread. I recall instances where Doty allegedly showed the "same" documents to different people with just little pieces of information changed. For example, he showed Bill Moore a document with a certain date for a supposed UFO crash and then show the same document to Linda Moulton Howe with a different date for the crash.

I do think in that particular episode of Lee Graham being visited by an FBI agent and Maj. General Kerby of USAF they tested if he was a security leak by telling him the F117's top secret designation. As recounted in the source you quoted, they "gave him a form to sign, certifying that he had been given information 'for which [he] [had] no need to know.'" That just doesn't happen. If he had no need to know they couldn't divulge that information, unless it was part of a plan to see what he do with it.

That's my take at least.

Some Agency-and-Ufology guys were associated with the New World Order PTB. And -even- Bohemian Grove. I don't have "pics or it didn't happen" so I'll not namedrop, thank you. But you can easily enginesearch where, back in the '90's, Rockefeller hosted a group of Ufologists, and Rockefeller was behind Greer's Disclosure movement. Back in the '90's as well, I myself was visiting with a (ahem) saucerly Personage, (not just any buff, I'll tell you) and I saw a photo, of him all friendly with Liechtenstein royalty. For those who are unaware, there is an excellent thread here on ATS about them. This particular ufo chap had been working -contract- for the Agency and other Feds. "It's-just-that" the Globalists are always seeking ways to hasten their agendas for all of us.

So...is there a consensus amongst this thread --- that George Adamski's UFO affair --- with a trip to Venus on a flying saucer along with a Venusian humanoid, was a CIA perpertrated hoax; with the CIA's intent on gauging peoples reaction's to EBE visitation's here on earth?

reply to post by The GUT


But why are you using the words 'UFO Mythos' in the title? Are you implying that UFO incidents are a myth? If you didn't claim that you would call it simply 'The CIA and the UFOs', this is so wrong. I can't believe I see someone thinking UFOs is a myth.

Originally posted by Imtor
But why are you using the words 'UFO Mythos' in the title? Are you implying that UFO incidents are a myth? If you didn't claim that you would call it simply 'The CIA and the UFOs', this is so wrong. I can't believe I see someone thinking UFOs is a myth.

The first sentence of The GUT's OP:

"Of course I don't propose that we don't have a truly anomalous mystery in the ufo phenomenon ..."

Originally posted by Imtor
reply to post by The GUT

 

But why are you using the words 'UFO Mythos' in the title? Are you implying that UFO incidents are a myth? If you didn't claim that you would call it simply 'The CIA and the UFOs', this is so wrong. I can't believe I see someone thinking UFOs is a myth.

Understandable misinterpretation however GUT I believe is using the term "Mythos" to encompass all that goes with the subject factual, rumoured to be factual, urban legend etc etc...

thanks for the information

Originally posted by Quaesitor
I think it was a combination of all those reasons and more than we haven't figured out and probably never will. But the primary reason for the MJ12 documents, in my opinion, was to act as a distraction, to have people looking some other way and lead them down dead ends...

...Also, I think they were interested in seeing how and to whom would the information spread...

...I do think in that particular episode of Lee Graham being visited by an FBI agent and Maj. General Kerby of USAF they tested if he was a security leak by telling him the F117's top secret designation....

Yeah, that's solid thinking, Quaesitor.

You did give a disclaimer and left some room open for 'reasons we haven't figured out' yet and I still feel that there is a psychological or social engineering aspect that eludes the light.

I'm absolutely sure you are right about Intel mapping how the MJ12 docs would spread, but they were created, it seems to me, as powerful memes as well. Even when one knows better, they're kind of hard to shake. And look what they've done to the less discerning.

They surfaced in a couple of different forms at different times too. It seems like they were "tweaked" for some reason.

What's your take on the contactees and intel involvement? Did it happen, and if so what impetus?

Thanks for your thoughts.

Originally posted by Saucerwench
"It's-just-that" the Globalists are always seeking ways to hasten their agendas for all of us.

"Saucerly Personage" I LIKE that, I'll have to steal it.

Ya know, one doesn't even have to be much of a conspiracy theorist to recognize that the globalists exist, that they represent power, and that they have a plan.

So why wouldn't they have a stinky finger in everything? Or maybe Globalists are just lifelong saucer nuts like us?

Originally posted by Imtor
But why are you using the words 'UFO Mythos' in the title? Are you implying that UFO incidents are a myth? If you didn't claim that you would call it simply 'The CIA and the UFOs', this is so wrong. I can't believe I see someone thinking UFOs is a myth.

Lemme ask you a question, Imtor. Don't make me sorry I did, okay? Here we go: If official elements of the U.S. government have created & circulated such things as the MJ12 papers, and it looks like a slam-dunk that they did, do you think that A.) it has created a mythology of sorts and B.) that it would behoove the ufological community to come to grips with such knowledge?

Further, might'nt that be psychologically irresponsible? A travesty to ufological truth? A ufo myth?

What if they were hiding an interdimensional reality behind an extraterrestrial smokescreen? Wouldn't you want to know that?

HAR! I just saw yer blood pressure go straight through the roof!! Go easy, Imtor, GUT loves your irascible self.