The CIA and the UFO Mythos

GUT, I have never been willing to dismiss the whole MJ12 thing do to such as, this reason. Am wondering what you think of it.
As --I recall-- it was only under about a couple months after Jerome Hunsaker passed away, the last surviving alleged member of that original supposed MJ12 group, then the mystery envelope with the microfilm, was slipped to Jaime Shandera.
I find that timing very important, somehow, it speaks (to me) of no mere low level do'ins.

Originally posted by Saucerwench
As --I recall-- it was only under about a couple months after Jerome Hunsaker passed away, the last surviving alleged member of that original supposed MJ12 group, then the mystery envelope with the microfilm, was slipped to Jaime Shandera.

It can be looked at two ways though, Saucerwrench. The other way is that no one was alive to point out that the story was a fabrication.

Thats a really good point. Although I wonder why the mystery courier knew Jerome Hunsaker died.

Hey GUT, I used to have copies of Donald Menzel's FBI files, where they were working hard to get him highly cleared. Then one day, I was going through my musty old ufo-stuff accumulations, and I couldn't find 'em. I should probably go through it all more thoroughly one of these daze.

Originally posted by The GUT
I'm absolutely sure you are right about Intel mapping how the MJ12 docs would spread, but they were created, it seems to me, as powerful memes as well.

Oh no doubt about it. And I didn't meant to imply that I discount that as being one of the objectives by believing it was not the primary purpose (and I stress that is just my personal opinion).

Whoever crafted this operation, the documents and everything else that it involved — like manipulating/influencing the people receiving the information on a personal basis — were people with extensive knowledge and experience in the arts of deception, disinformation and espionage tradecraft. This kind of work is done by people who, in achieving their objectives, kill many birds with one stone.

And it wasn't Doty alone. In fact he was probably at the bottom of that pyramid. And it probably wasn't even the work of a single agency.

Even when one knows better, they're kind of hard to shake. And look what they've done to the less discerning.

Couldn't have said it better myself. And one of the casualties, and perhaps the biggest casualty — besides poor Paul Bennewitz of course — in my opinion was Stan Friedman.

Whatever one thinks of Stan's conclusions, no one can deny his skills as a researcher, at uncovering people and documents and all sorts of information. And just look at the time and effort he has spent (perhaps wasted) with the MJ12 affair. I wonder what else he might have focused his attention on and what fruits that would have beared.

What's your take on the contactees and intel involvement? Did it happen, and if so what impetus?

I have no doubt intelligence was involved in the contactee movement. I think they were motivated for several reasons.

Remember that this was in the infancy of the modern UFO era, so I suspect they were just as intrigued (and worried) by these people's stories as the public at large. Keeping an eye on and being inside the contactee movement would not only provide them with information but, if any of the stories would have any truth to them, they could more easily and quickly manage it.

No wonder that, just like "ufology" now, it was so muddied that it was impossible to discern what was real and what wasn't, if anything at all.

reply to post by Saucerwench

The most effective disinformation contains pieces of the truth because the more verifiable information it contains the easier it is to convince the enemy of what you're trying to make him believe.

The only real documents — probably just a couple — never even hint at what the group/project was about, so I suspect that MJ12 actually existed, but didn't have anything to do with UFOs. They used something that existed, extremely secretive, but unrelated, as the vehicle for delivery of the disinformation.

Just my opinion.

Originally posted by The GUT

The question is what do they really want us to believe? WHY on one hand would they try and hush it up and on the other hand perpetuate the belief?

That's a good question mate and when it comes to the CIA, I think the start of an answer begins with their inception of the Robertson panel in 1953 - it's been said that one of their main mandates was to 'cultivate the public perception that the UFO subject was scientifically unrespectable' - boy did they do a good job on that one.

I don't know if they have any idea about the true origin of the UFO/USO subject (and thanks for linking the thread ) but as we both know there's lots of crap to wade through in regard to the subject so maybe they just like muddying the waters on purpose, especially when it comes to hyping bogus cases and info/disinfo about fake documents - after all, I suppose it's what they're best at.

Have to watch the clock tonight but there are two relevant articles below which go into more detail about CIA psy-ops and officially sanctioned UFO 'debunking' and deception programmes - there's also a good pdf document here which mentions how their 'debunking aim' could be accomplished by using mass media such as television, motion pictures and popular articles whilst being advised by experts in mass psychology - looks like they did a good job there too.


Psy-Ops:

There are many reasons why your average professional scientist shuns away from studying UFO evidence or publicly admitting having an interest in the UFO subject. The primary reason is the implied threat to one's carreer, either directly via officialdom retributions or indirectly through the carefully cultivated public perception that the UFO subject is scientifically unrespectable. The latter was achieved by the psy-ops of the US Intelligence Establishment i.e. the officially sanctioned "debunking" and deception programme, euphemistically called "re-education of the public".

The anti-UFO propaganda has been waged upon the general populous since the 1950s, as outlined e.g. in declassified report of the Robertson Panel (commissioned by the CIA in Jan-1953)..

link

Bury the subject:

The Robertson Panel, as it came to be known, was hampered by men of Page's mindset and thrown off by the highly selective presentation of UFO cases by the CIA, charged one of the attending Air Force officers. "We were double-crossed," commented a Blue Book member. "The CIA (didn't) want to prepare the public - they're trying to bury the subject. Those agents ran the whole show and the scientists followed their lead. They threw out the Utah [Newhouse] film - said the Navy analysts were incompetent. We had over a hundred of the strongest verified reports. The agents bypassed the best ones. The scientists saw just 15 cases and the CIA men tried to pick holes in them."

link

Cheers.

Originally posted by Quaesitor
Whoever crafted this operation, the documents and everything else that it involved — like manipulating/influencing the people receiving the information on a personal basis — were people with extensive knowledge and experience in the arts of deception, disinformation and espionage tradecraft. This kind of work is done by people who, in achieving their objectives, kill many birds with one stone.

That's hit me too, that "killing many birds with one stone aspect." They're really good at it, it seems, and it makes sense strategically. I believe I've read somewhere that Dulles was a proponent and adept in that area, but I haven't a clue where I got that so I can't swear by it

And it wasn't Doty alone. In fact he was probably at the bottom of that pyramid. And it probably wasn't even the work of a single agency.

Agreed. Goon. Dirty work specialist. He himself probably doesn't have much, if any clue, as to what he was doing in the overall scheme.

...one of the casualties, and perhaps the biggest casualty — besides poor Paul Bennewitz of course — in my opinion was Stan Friedman.

Whatever one thinks of Stan's conclusions, no one can deny his skills as a researcher, at uncovering people and documents and all sorts of information. And just look at the time and effort he has spent (perhaps wasted) with the MJ12 affair. I wonder what else he might have focused his attention on and what fruits that would have beared.

You really make me think, Quaesitor, and I appreciate the heck out of it. When I look at Stanton in that light, I can be more understanding. I'ma still have some issues with him for failing to include high strangeness aspects in some of the cases he's reported though. Even if it's just a result of electromagnetic effects on the brain in some of the cases, it's still, imo, an important part of the puzzle. (Electric Ufos: Fireballs, Electromagnetics and Abnormal States)

Since I linked that book, I better explain that the author disregards the anomalous aspect whereas I don't. I believe that electromagnetism is a feature of the ufology phenomenon, not the cause of it, and as such the author, Budden, has put together some info worth considering albeit unwittingly.

The contactees? I can't say they weren't used for the purposes you state as I believe that too, but again there's multiple hints that it went deeper and is more complex than it might seem. I'll try and elaborate and make a better case for that later if I feel I can pull it off.

Thanks again, you bring a lot to the table at this smorgasbord of ufological confusion.

Originally posted by The GUT
When I look at Stanton in that light, I can be more understanding. I'ma still have some issues with him for failing to include high strangeness aspects in some of the cases he's reported though.

Yes I have noticed that about Stan, and other researchers as well. And it's not just a reluctance to deal with "high strangeness" aspects, but actually with any aspects that deviate from a "nuts and bolts" answer. I have a suspicion on why that might be: Stan is a scientist so his mind is conditioned to see mysteries as part of undiscovered aspects of an objective and physical reality. It's very hard to care, or even accept, things that might not conform to your view of reality.

Also, a "nuts and bolts" explanation might be an easier "sell" to get the masses interested on a subject that is already plagued with so many problems; hoaxers, disinformation, and so on. He concentrates on these aspects because I think it's easier to convince someone something is real by showing them government documents, video, photos, radar returns, and talking about it as something physical, instead of subjective, interpretive or even "spiritual" things.

And being completely honest, I am the same way. And I think that's fine. The phenomenon is obviously complex and multifaceted and not everyone has to approach it the same way, or even care about the same or all the aspects of it. As long as we're open to new and different ideas there's room for everyone and their "specialty" or interest, just like in every other field of study.

Thanks again, you bring a lot to the table at this smorgasbord of ufological confusion.

Thanks for your kind words and I return them by saying I appreciate your ideas as well and the quality of the threads and posts you create.

This is along but interesting read and gives some insight into the various machinations that can go on.

www.checktheevidence.co.uk...

My only comment would be this. Given the detail the site goes into and given the accusations made then one can only assume that it is still available because, the content is not something those named in it would wish to test in court.

This is also the reason why I, Personally, have never chosen to become a "UFO pro". My own area of biz provides enough back biting, completely false stories passed off as the "truth" to keep me happy for a lifetime.

What I can say is this, Max Burns is 100% on the money when he talks about "TV appearances" and the manoeuvring that goes on behind the scenes and it is widely known that A will not appear "live" if B is on a certain show. One should also take an interest in reviews of shows, by those in the field, who are not featured in that particular show.

Let me finish by saying this. I have offered evidence to two well known people in the UFO field that, when viewed you would think they would be only too interested to at least hear and follow up on. Both people, to my surprise, either didn't actually understand what I was offering them or simply couldn't give a toss about it, even though, in both cases it would have aided them in their specific areas of research. In fact one piece of evidence, should it pan out, would give a particular researcher a huge club with which, to slap their detractors around with at their leisure. Now, I understand that these people receive a gazillion mails a day from various sources and yet both replied and seemed interested until, I sent them the details. Now had those details simply been, run of the mill fair enough, only in one case the researcher almost flat out refused to accept that, they were confusing the identity of two witnesses, when that was obviously the case. Maybe that was simply down to being tired and over worked, who knows? What it does show is this, you can't help starting to think that, unless your "names on the list" if you are offering research, not a whistle blower wanting to spill their guts or a new witness, then at best, people are letting their egos come between serious investigations being properly and fully carried out.

Originally posted by FireMoon
What I can say is this, Max Burns is 100% on the money when he talks about "TV appearances" and the manoeuvring that goes on behind the scenes and it is widely known that A will not appear "live" if B is on a certain show. One should also take an interest in reviews of shows, by those in the field, who are not featured in that particular show.

And doesn't Jim Mosely of Saucer Smear fame have such fun with that aspect of ufology?

I used to find him only loathsome for doing so, but after you get a good whiff of the egos and silliness of the ufo circuit coupled with the close-mindedness of many of them you either have to laugh or cry.

Now about that "researcher," makes me wonder...even more. You haven't been overtly active for awhile but it's not like you don't have connections and credentials in the field. Ego or has he been flipped?

Did the "witness" ever go public?

reply to post by The GUT


That's the thing GUT, gone public? How much more public, than a 10 minute interview on one of the most popular morning TV shows in the country can you be?; and not one person, to my knowledge, has followed up on it in the 16 years since it was aired. It was a bit of a fluke I saw it and I wasn't around online a huge deal when it was aired. I assumed that investigators would be all over it however, the very opposite. I have tried my very best to find a geek from the show who might have it on tape, so far no luck and the show moved channels a few years back meaning most of the ancillary staff have changed as well.

reply to post by The GUT


New members take notice. We should all strive for this kind of presentation.

A well laid out and easy to understand read. I don't see a flaw in this effort. The links and pics and the whole current of the thread. This is an ATS post !

Well done Gut. It's obvious to me you could do a fantastic book on this subject.

SnF

reply to post by randyvs

Thank you for the encouragement, randyvs, but I know I'm not "there" yet. Guys like you set the high-bar, guys like me play catch up earnestly and grateful for the example.

reply to post by The GUT


We appear to be caught in a Strange Loop right here on this very thread.

1. We have anomolous skyborne phenomena.

2. Intel agencies seize a golden chance, and begin producing their own phenom/molding public perception of it.

3. It is impossible to know to what extent this has occurred, and how to ever extricate facts from the morass of myth.

It seems to me that an alarming bulk of- uh- sociological experimentation is geared toward nailing what people believe and why in a post-Enlightenment climate. What best fills the hole in our brains where religion used to be? What enables us to believe is also what allows us to come together and congregate, to be led as one. It is the key to the hive mind; and although we may have largely become an a-religious culture, the neural hardware associated with that function hasn't just up and ceased to exist.

So, how to tap into that? How do we make grown-ass adults believe in Santa Claus? Or any other damn thing you want to marshal them all round? UFOs provide an ideal trial for research of that sort, I'd think.

This situation is not helped by the glaring inconsistencies in such documents as are released to the public. It would not surprise me to learn that those inconsistencies are deliberate, the main aim in disclosure being to add layers of noise around the phenom. In fact, I kind of get the impression the record is skewed to exaggerate the role of American intel in informing the UFO movement.

Those Intel employees who are sicced on prominent groups or individuals in UFO research, I wonder; do they ever go native? Would that present a conflict of interest they'd have to conceal from their employer?

Originally posted by Eidolon23

We appear to be caught in a Strange Loop right here on this very thread.

1. We have anomolous skyborne phenomena.

2. Intel agencies seize a golden chance, and begin producing their own phenom/molding public perception of it.

Well I'd agree with those two points Eidolon23 - especially the part about intel agencies attempting to mould the public perception of the 'anomolous skyborne phenomena'.

The supposedly objective Robertson panel and the Condon Committee were perhaps two of the most important ever U.S. Government sponsered 'studies' into the UFO subject when it came to forming negative opinions in the public mindset and being instrumental in closing down official U.S. Government UFO investigations - there's a thread here exploring how many of the final summaries of the Condon report were 'variously misleading, false or inaccurate' but now authenticated documents have emerged which state the CIA were involved in Dr Condon's research and he was ordered never to admit it during a SECRET clearance level meeting:

See 4a



Link

Perhaps more damning is another document below which shows that the conclusions of the much touted 'scientific and impartial' Robertson panel were already arrived at one year before by their 'sponsors', the CIA.

This memo to the Director of CIA indicates that what would be the recommendation of the Robertson Panel was already determined a year before: flying saucers cause to threats to the national security: one psychological threat (risks of mass panic may be exploited by the "enemy"), and the other an air security threat (neglect of UFO alerts may cause neglect of "enemy" air attacks.)

It also shows that CIA estimated current efforts of UFO research insufficient as far as national security is concerned and that the problem must be escalated to higher levels.

link

Cheers.

I just saw this thread and wanted to drop in and THANK "The GUT" for posting it, it's well written and, based on my personal knowledge and friendship with some of the people discussed, extremely accurate. There's much I could write in support of many of the claims in the OP but it's all available for anyone who really wants to look, sans the belief blinders. Genuine research should be intended and conducted to disprove our own hypothesis and beliefs first.

I fit into the category of humans who believe there is a phenom here, a real, utterly confusing phenomena. I'll add that it's just as confusing to those in the intel agencies being discussed in this thread. I've spent many hours discussing these topics with several very "way up there" former intelligence officers, high ranking military officers, etc... And every single one of them (who were being honest and not trying to B.S. me in the hope of gaining something) expressed significant confusion and a deep desire to learn more about the incidents and reports they knew there was no explanation for.

Matter of fact, one of them, a dear personal friend of mine for many years now, is working on several cases within his now private practice that simply defy rational thought based on the actual evidence, and no, I'm not talking about eye witness reports or fuzzy images, I am talking about bleeding edge technology that can not be subjective.

All that said, there's also been much abuse IMO by the U.S. and many foreign governments in order to cover tracks they never wanted followed.

Anyone who tosses this off as unimportant, or, defies it because it shatters long held beliefs does so at his/her own risk of missing the point and chasing the wrong game.

Springer...

Originally posted by Cosmic911
What I often think of now is what will CIA and the USAF use as a cover for top secret advanced aircraft? They knowingly and willfully used the UFO phenomena as a cover for advanced black op aircraft. What are they going to use now as a cover? Or, they might just figure the gig is up, we know they're working on high tech black op aircraft and say to hell with the cover. The big bad Soviets are dead so no need to play cat and mouse with them anymore, right?

I don't think it works like that---it's credulous humans who use UFO reports as a "cover" without any actions needing to be taken.

No, they won't give up on the cover because nobody has authority to disclose. Some contractor will still be producing some craft and some part of Special Forces Command will be doing operations and somebody will see something weird and make some erroneous reports. People "in the know" will know exactly what they saw, and will never say so, because it isn't their job to say so, and they'd get fired/sued/bankrupted/prosecuted if they did.

The rest of the FAA and military will also have no idea what the observations were since it wasn't their need to know either.

reply to post by The GUT


Thanks The GUT. I heard this personally from the CIA historian in the year 2000, though I hadn't seen it officially confirmed in writing until now. He said that some of the U-2 and CORONA files had been declassified and he was allowed to talk about them. Presumably there are many others which are still restricted.

Personally I wonder whether many observations of a "10,000 mph" UFO may be the result of ECM on civilian radar, and the 1976 Tehran UFO a SR-71 operation, or a Soviet equivalent.

reply to post by The GUT


Something you might be interested in mate, obviously the CIA are one of the main front runners within the governments UFO program. The theory that NICAP was destroyed by the CIA is also held by Grant Cameron, the reason being as it was becoming too powerful and ofc, you know what they say, in regards to the so-called "ex-members", once in the CIA, there's no way out:

www.abovetopsecret.com...