Does the award for the greatest evil go to Satan or God?

Originally posted by LordD
I think their is only one evil which is keeping something from someone that is beneficial to them. Everything else is perspective. That being said its The God of Abraham hands down.

+ 1

Regards
DL

Originally posted by WarminIndy
[

Alpha and Omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet.
I did not realize it was a competition for the Most Evil category. I don't blame Satan for most of what he gets blamed for, he is just a manipulator who makes people think they are doing him a favor.

Alpha and Omega represents more than that.

www.desiringgod.org...

"But God isn't speaking about alphabets. He is speaking of reality. God is absolutely the beginning and absolutely the end. Everything that is originates ultimately in him. And everything will somehow end with him."

Do you really think people are doing Satan a favor when they sin?
That people realy think he is watching?
What benefit do you think they are working for?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
For the Award Of Outstanding Evil Acts Throughout World History, I nominate "God".

If he were human and an American citizen, he would be serving at least 100 life sentences for his criminal history. Whatever Hitler would have gotten, multiple that by 20...30...maybe 40, even. Admit it, that HAS to be a record. Perhaps Guinness World Records could publish it next year.

edit on 21-8-2012 by AfterInfinity because: (no reason given)

It might open a few blind eyes.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

AMEN AND....

Seven Billion souls returned to life to see evil removed. Priceless.

AMEN!!!!!

God is not to be blamed for the choices we make! Accountability has to be accounted for to it's rightful owner. I'm living as an infinite being, and was called a " good" creation. I didnt create myself or any human for that matter, God did.

Is he accountable for His creation? Should he have held his hands up in despair and said forget it.... You're done girl? Lol

Like a good father, he is supportive and loving even when I do wrong. 💛

Was he showing his support to A & E when he murdered them by neglect when he would not allow them access to what would keep them alive?

Would you let your child die when you could save it?

Regards
DL

Originally posted by NotReallyASecret
One man's God is another man's Satan.

Refer to gnosticism, Islam etc.

I am a Gnostic Christian and have no idea what you are talking about.

Regards
DL

Originally posted by Greatest I am

Originally posted by MamaJ
reply to post by EnochWasRight

 

AMEN AND....

Seven Billion souls returned to life to see evil removed. Priceless.

AMEN!!!!!

God is not to be blamed for the choices we make! Accountability has to be accounted for to it's rightful owner. I'm living as an infinite being, and was called a " good" creation. I didnt create myself or any human for that matter, God did.

Is he accountable for His creation? Should he have held his hands up in despair and said forget it.... You're done girl? Lol

Like a good father, he is supportive and loving even when I do wrong. 💛

Was he showing his support to A & E when he murdered them by neglect when he would not allow them access to what would keep them alive?

Would you let your child die when you could save it?

Regards
DL

You are looking at this through your human eyes.

What does your spirit tell you?

Mine tells me to look at it like this....

Imagine this scenario.. Ok. :-)

WE were hovering the Earth, noticing its beauty and wanting to inhabit it, after all we have eternity, right?

Our father told us we could, however he like any father had rules for his children to abide by.

Now, I'm a mother of three and the BEST way I have found to make them mind me is to mean what I say. If I tell them do not go there or such and such will happen then if they do go where I told them not to.... My word stands. Such and such will happen! I always back up my words and by doing this it is clear where I stand and the kids are never ever confused because they know I mean what I say. In my eyes, it's the best way to parent children. Mean what you say!

So these rules were simple. Don't eat this certain fruit or your flesh will have to overcome death. You will then know right and wrong. Your days on Earth will be in agony.

Well. Although simple rules, we couldn't do it. Because of the disobedience to our parents we are now incarnating into flesh time and time again to reach the point where we were long ago. We are making a full circle back to the beginning to get it right this time. Atonement is going to be reached one way or another!

For the human it has been many long years ago but for the spirit and souls..... It has been no time.

In time the spirit and flesh will be at one once again.

reply to post by MamaJ

Now, I'm a mother of three and the BEST way I have found to make them mind me is to mean what I say. If I tell them do not go there or such and such will happen then if they do go where I told them not to.... My word stands. Such and such will happen! I always back up my words and by doing this it is clear where I stand and the kids are never ever confused because they know I mean what I say. In my eyes, it's the best way to parent children. Mean what you say!

......yyeeeeaaahhhhhhhhsorta. It's all well and good to mean what you say, but what if you're keeping them from something they need? "Footloose", anybody? Rebellion, and eventually one) you admit you were wrong, or two) you convince them they were wrong.

Either one could achieve the desired result.

So these rules were simple. Don't eat this certain fruit or your flesh will have to overcome death. You will then know right and wrong. Your days on Earth will be in agony.

"For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." - Genesis 3:5

Again...holding us down so we can't be like him. That's oppression. And you know what? Here's the reason he didn't want us to touch the fruit. Here's the real reason!

Now, to explain the question and answer it: "Did God give us free will...or did the fruit?"

It's clear that our poor choices come from our free will, as do our good choices. But the mere act of choosing implies there's more than one option, some more desirable than other options. But how do you know it's more desirable? Because you know where the other option will lead. You know, and you don't like it. This means that the ability to recognize a good option comes from the freedom to make bad choices.

Now, in the story, before Eve and Adam partook of the fruit of knowledge, they were obviously pious or gracious or pure or whatever enough to stay in the Garden of Eden, right? But when the opportunity came to disobey the one command they were given, they broke the rule. Why? Because they didn't have the experience to say no. They'd never made that mistake before, so how were they to know what lay down that path?

When you don't have the freedom to make mistakes, you don't have free will. "God" prevented them from having the opportunity to stumble, until the fruit became involved. And according to Christian faith, he punished them by throwing them from the garden. Because the fruit showed them both positive and negative, and with that knowledge came free will. The freedom to make mistakes.

"God" didn't give us free will. The fruit did.

Now this is what I'm talking about when I say, "Use logic." Logic will defeat your faith everytime. That's why it's called faith...because if it were anything else, it would be dead by now. Only faith has the endurance to hold onto something so false and cheap.

Because of the disobedience to our parents we are now incarnating into flesh time and time again to reach the point where we were long ago.

We're paying for our parents' crimes? How is that justice? How does that make any sense at all?

Remember Lion King 2? The cub wasn't punished for Simba's memories of Scar and his minions. That's a basic lesson right there, straight from Disney. And I personally know that it's a valid concept.

Every person should pay for their own crimes. To be punished for someone else's crimes is as unjust as cold-blooded murder. But wait, we're talking about your "God". Okay, that makes sense.

Atonement is going to be reached one way or another!

You cannot be forgiven if you don't forgive yourself. Look within for forgiveness.

......yyeeeeaaahhhhhhhhsorta. It's all well and good to mean what you say, but what if you're keeping them from something they need? "Footloose", anybody? Rebellion, and eventually one) you admit you were wrong, or two) you convince them they were wrong. Either one could achieve the desired result. So these rules were simple. Don't eat this certain fruit or your flesh will have to overcome death. You will then know right and wrong. Your days on Earth will be in agony. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." - Genesis 3:5

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Fruit? Oppression? It's all about choice! Lol we wanted to come here, determined to do so, should have trusted... And listened... But naw.. Here is how that's workin for us...

It's not about wrong or right, it's about the better choice. Parents job is to guide. Think about God being a justifiable parent! GUIDANCE as in, " do not touch the stove, it's hot". Kid touches it... Ha! They learn with our guidance and after while there is trust! My kids trust me!!! We should have trusted our Dad too!

The kids and I talk about the better choice because I give them their own free will to make mistakes. You would really be surprised how awesome my kids are.

When they (my kids) realized we didn't live forever they cried, their soul was touched... And they hurt really bad. Something as detrimental ...life and death.... should not be taken lightly, and it isn't. Our spirit mourns the loss of the love onced shared! Our own mortality hits us and it goes deeper than any pain! We are left behind and the veil still covers us, only faith gets us through the loss and on to live a life that continues a spiral of pain and heartache until we too face the time of death!

Look what just ONE choice CAN DO to all of mankind.

Look at the weaponry we have today. Nukes? Could we make one choice that could end our race? Yes, the answer is STILL Yes! Choices should have thought, much thought put into them for the sake of not just me, but you too.

It's evident there is a snowball effect with each choice. Logic? There's the logic! Haha! Open your eyes to the bigger picture!

We're paying for our parents' crimes? How is that justice? How does that make any sense at all?

Noooo.... " parents" as in mother and father god. :-)

But now ya mention it, let's talk about that.

Not sure about your family, but with mine a certain choice can trickle down and cause lots of havoc for the rest of us. Sometimes it can affect us for life.

You cannot be forgiven if you don't forgive yourself. Look within for forgiveness.

I agree! God gets blamed for judging and making us reap what we sow, but maybe it just is. It's a Universal law He cannot control. It just is. If He can control it, then it's an agreement between us. This life is so short compared to eternity.

I can definitely reason WHY God does or doesn't do....

We should be accountable for our choices! Forgiveness of our self and others HAS to be done by Us! This is evident in near death experiences as well.

Have you not heard the many experiences claiming to have guides.... Guide them through life. I don't have a guide, but my guide is the trust I put into my intuition. I trust and love myself enough to believe what I say.

We are a lot like God... More than we should, by the looks of our human race.

reply to post by MamaJ


You missed my point entirely "God" never gave us free will, the fruit did.He tried to KEEP us from free will, according to the Bible.

He punished Adam and Eve in sending them away from the garden, right? Why would he do that? Because they had become like gods. Because they had free will.

How much do you wanna bet that Adam and Eve were originally slaves who rose up against their masters because a clever sorcerer showed them how to?

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by MamaJ

 

You missed my point entirely "God" never gave us free will, the fruit did.He tried to KEEP us from free will, according to the Bible.

He punished Adam and Eve in sending them away from the garden, right? Why would he do that? Because they had become like gods. Because they had free will.

How much do you wanna bet that Adam and Eve were originally slaves who rose up against their masters because a clever sorcerer showed them how to?

Again, I tell you, you my friend have got to get out of the flesh, put yourself in spirit and think. Your point is clear, and I'm still in disagreement.

You are a soul with a spirit expressing yourself just as God.

He did not punish Adam .... Adam punished himself.

Who was before Adam, I ask you? Did you know the Bible speaks briefly about the prehistoric times before Adam?

Much study in the Light is needed.

Here is a little something I'm reading. If you want to get in my mind for moments today or whenever you have time you may do so by reading this. See if you can preview the book. I'm previewing it from my iPad and it tells a story that my soul is aware of. I knew the story when I was a young girl as Mr. Cayce has been a teacher of mine for as long as I can remember or read. Jesus is my favorite teacher becuase as one day you will find, he is the way for all of us whether or not we realize it in the life or not as a material being/ spiritual.

The member Enoch that joined in this discussion early on basically states the same. There are indeed teachers of Light that pass us by within this short life/lives and when it connects to your spirit, take heed. Listen and learn. It's an amazing experience to be had and then shared.

At this present stage of your life there is a story going on within you and within all of us. The Bible tells us that story because it's living words that has manifested itself upon man as he/ we express our selves. It takes many years of study and research for some ( me) and for others remembrance comes easy.

See if you can sample or preview this book on a device you have. www.amazon.com...

I view the Bible, God, and Jesus in a way that is out of this world and in spirit form. Because of this, I find God to be good all the time. There is no error, everything is perfect in the love he gives through balance and harmony. He is an awesome God!

You may have a hard time believing this, but it's true. We were around before the Earth was EVER created. We were not meant to use this place to dwell.

If all of science was seen through spiritual eyes we would be so advanced our head would spin. Separating the spirit of science is error, in my opinion. One day though, one day!

reply to post by MamaJ

Again, I tell you, you my friend have got to get out of the flesh, put yourself in spirit and think. Your point is clear, and I'm still in disagreement.

You mean I have to stop thinking critically and just accept it.

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by MamaJ

 

Again, I tell you, you my friend have got to get out of the flesh, put yourself in spirit and think. Your point is clear, and I'm still in disagreement.

You mean I have to stop thinking critically and just accept it.

Ha! Naw....

Use your MIND AND SOUL to find answers to questions you have regarding the Bible, God and Us ( Man).

The relationship you have with the Bible ( story of man), God ( Spirit) and Man ( spirit of souls manifested from Gods thought) is out of balance becuase you are not finding any truth, only confusion.

When you say the fruit caused us to " sin" and we are not allowed to be like God.... You are not speaking truth... Not really.

Evidence points to man being creators! We create allllll the time with our thoughts. Where do thoughts come from? Lol

The fruit or apple can be symbolized as the all seeing eye.

We had a choice.... God didn't and still doesn't want any of us to perish. We are creating our own reality and have made our self separate but it doesn't have to be this way today. Christ showed/shows us the way. It's pretty simple.

The Lamsa version of the Bible sheds more light than the King James, in my opinion. Many Christians have no idea it's out there and the ones that do have a hard time with it because it does go against some of the mainstream teachings. Check it put though... You may find its just what you needed. :-) Oral Roberts was said to have used it in his studies and asked his memebers to use it as well.

The word for word in the Bible can be looked at, peer reviewed and come out with different meanings. Confusion is had.

When you read it like a book over and over again throughout your years, by yourself you see it as a book that tells a story. The story has much meaning when it comes to man and his nature. If you put yourself in spirit and let your mind wonder from this earthly plane, you are then able to hear God and see what it is he wants you to see. Your truth is different than mine... But.... It's the same in the end, there is no other way but the way Christ laid out for us.

reply to post by MamaJ


I can show you a dozen ways to not live like Jesus.

There are ways to defy. Even your "God" is not perfect...as much as you like to pretend otherwise.

reply to post by MamaJ

The relationship you have with the Bible ( story of man), God ( Spirit) and Man ( spirit of souls manifested from Gods thought) is out of balance becuase you are not finding any truth, only confusion.

Confusion is all I see...which is pretty ironic considering the "Word of God" is supposedly absolute. Sometimes, I suspect that the Bible is deliberately vague or misleading in spots, just to cause chaos.

When you say the fruit caused us to " sin" and we are not allowed to be like God.... You are not speaking truth... Not really.

I didn't say the fruit caused them to sin. I said the fruit gave them freedom. Sin is a synonym for learning. You make a mistake and you learn what went wrong. Then you do it better. The knowledge of positive and negative belonged to the gods before (Elohim is a plural term), and so they didn't want their lowly creations to have it.

Why else would we be punished for trying to emulate our father? There is no reason for a parent to punish a child following in their footsteps. And that's just ONE logical fallacy, out of the dozens of them that fill the pages of the Bible.

The fruit or apple can be symbolized as the all seeing eye.

It could be, yes...but in actuality, it was seen as a symbol of the female, similar to a rose. The soft flesh, the seeded womb, rosy color, it was all reminiscent of a fertile woman.

We had a choice.... God didn't and still doesn't want any of us to perish.

Let me see if I can find that bit I posted about hell...

Edit: Found it. Here's something I posted about "hell" a while back. Again, a very logical discourse on the illogical dimensions of our conceptions of hell.

There is no reason for an omniscient being to create a place like hell, except that not only did he know exactly who would take each seat as he made it, but he went ahead and designed us that way anyway, knowing exactly what we would choose and which fate we would face. And not a single adjustment was made that day, either to spare us, to fix us, to perfect us...nothing.

So really, we were MEANT to go to hell. That's what logic tells me. Our destiny, wherever we end up, heaven or hell, is fulfilled. So why choose? Because if our path is preordained, if your "god", who is so real and so powerful supposedly, knows exactly what's going to happen to us before our grandparents were a gleam in his eye, then that's how it was meant to be.

No matter what I do, I am designed a certain way, which will bring about a certain fate, which is exactly what your "god" foresaw before I was even born...and still allowed to happen. Because that's what he wants. There is no reason to be omniscient, create a faulty race of servants, and then prepare a burning pit specifically for them, unless he knew what would happen, could see it happening in his mind's eye, and WANTED it to happen. Had accepted it, was willing to work with it, and was preparing for the event. Assuming that hell actually exists as described in the Bible, every person who has ever gone to hell, or ever will go to hell, was sent there by your god because he WANTED them to be there. Before you are born, your destiny is chosen. There is absolutely no way to be omniscient and omnipotent, the creator of the entire universe, and NOT have everyone's destiny squared away.

Don't bother choosing, because if all this is true and accurate, then your choice doesn't matter. Follow your life as you will, because your fate is chosen. Your path is planned. You were designed FOR that path...the path wasn't designed for you. And no matter what happens, you will reach the end of that path. Because he wants you to.

Does this make sense to everyone? Don't bother trying, don't bother fighting, don't bother worrying or fussing or choosing. It's all preordained, according to Christianity's omniscient, all-powerful deity. Our place in the universe is etched in stone. You don't get to choose...it's already chosen, written, signed, and in progress. Don't bother fretting, because your ride has already departed, and the next time you get off, you'll be there. And then, you'll know the truth.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Ok.... Lets start off with positive and negative. Get out of the human mind and Lets go to another world from which you came. :-) here we go...

Humans ( man) create positive and negative via thought. Once the thought moves it become separate and manifests from within us to outside of us.

Same with God!!!! Refer to Genesis. ( this is an awesome realization if you can get it)

When his spirit moved across the deep and over the waters it was an expression from outside of himself for the love of his daughters and sons. We, the sons and daughters of God were there to witness such. Creation is still going. Each day of creation in Gensis describes manifestation of the spirit.

Before Adam was not men, but the sons and daughters of God from an expression manifested through God and .... Us!

Man was created for US, the body WE inhabit is only a vessel ( remember this when a loved one passes away).. The true essence and expression of who we are in the spirit is now made flesh. We see this daily! Its only a reflection though!! Hope you're following me with an ethereal mind and not a human one. This world is a mere speck to our truer existence. Here on Earth is only a projection made manifest through thought and expression from each and every moment of experience, hence " it's all about perception". We appear separate but in truth we are all One.

One mind, so to speak.

There are many planets whereby a spirit can dwell. This planet we call Earth was not made for us but as an expression NOT YET manifested by God and God alone!

He is our father which gives us... Our soul, balance and harmony!

Once we separated our self from God, left to come inhabit this planet NOT YET ready for us ( sneaky lil kids) thousands of years after we began inhabiting this planet) in the literal yet also metaphorical Garden of the East of Eden whereby the Sun watches over us and gives us Life, we then had to create a way OUT of the bondage we had gotten our self into. We got stuck here! From HERE is when the Bible kind of begins with Man in Genesis. In Genesis where it says, " Let US create man in OUR OWN image, do not think you were not a part of US, You were and ARE!

The desire ( satan, serpent, hell, underground, lucifer) to come here was tricky, God knew it but decided to let us come anyway. Our desire to be just our dad was sought, and the problem with that is we are little bitty kids in spirit, and the fact of the matter is we were NOT READY! We had a LOT of growing to do.

Our spirits desires from the flesh has caused us to kill our self ( look at the world), not know the full scope of expression where it involves creation..... It was not " time".

Desires keep us Away from our Father ( poor God) ...The one who created us, the one who loves us and watches over us. The choice we made to separate, will in the end, be ok becuase God is Good All The Time. He does not want us to perish. He is loving and just and created a way OUT !!!! JUST FOR US! Thank God, right? Lol

It is rumored that Jesus was Amilius. Amilius was the first expression of the divine mind from where we all live and came from. The divine mind is also found in Jesus as the Christ Consciousness. Amilius was roaming the Earth before Adam. Amilius is Adam! Amilius is Jesus. In Jesus there are many.... from you, there are many. There are many dwelling places and our temple that lies within has to be guarded for this life is equally important. Each life is just like that of the men in the Bible. We are all overcoming desires and finding our way back home. We are confused, not knowing or remembering the true essence of spirit. We are so powerful, we have no clue the power as a collective we hold. We could probably moves mountains when we are as one people and not divided.

When you create a thought, it becomes an expression ( manifests), IF a division occurs ( god divided in genesis for us) chaos follows especially if you are a little kid and don't know any better.

A little child looks at Trigonometry and does what with it?

The knowledge the little child NEEDS to do trig. cannot be obtained when they do not know the basics. I'm not trying to dominate any kid and say it can't be done but there is a Universal Law that says ( through expression) that a little kid cannot do it.

Look at the human race... Look around, we are ready to blow our race with nuclear warfare!

Hatred and the lost souls are all around you, the Bible is telling OUR story right now! It's an expression of mankinds........ Mind!

My then 10 (now 15) yr old said "ya know mom.... After reading the creation story over and over and reading revelations I think I know what God is saying".. I said "What"?

" We were obviously NOT READY for the knowledge"!

Stupid lil kids need to grow up before they act as if they are grown! They can get in lots of trouble, ya know. Lol

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Darkness had to manifest too. Unfortunatley this planet inhabits the desires from the split mind of men.

In some of US it has taken on a pretty huge manifestation whereas it's expressed more so than light and goodness. There is no balance and harmony within. It's a spirit that caters to the self inwardly and doesn't do the whole any good.... Sometimes it can become a real bad manifestation for not just the selfish individual but the overall family and friends the person has.

Creation is still ongoing as far as I'm concerned. The story for man will end, so says the stories that's been handed down to every race on Earth.

Your spirit of the soul is what matters in the end ...of man. We will go back full circle as we have been and are always choosing to eat of the tree of life or the tree of good and evil. Both trees are expressions of men's choices.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


In regards to hell as a dwelling place.... Sure..... It's manifested through thought.

If that's where your mind thinks your soul should go then that's where the soul will go...... For a period of time though and not eternity. Jesus has saved you from eternal death and he tells you how to live to go where he is going/went/lives when our days are over here. We already have a dwelling place we call home. The Universal Mind of God is where our home is. There are MANY dwelling places however the mind you posess is the one you will manifest upon departure. Truth and light shines on every living cell in your flesh/ spirit in an instant. Your judging of the self is crucial as the veil is then lifted and you either go toward the light or you shy away into the darkness. Expressions of desires you hold onto is in the darkness and It manifests inside your mind you could call hell.

Again, Jesus (Christ consciousness) will save you from the depths of your mind.

If you haven't read up on the subconscious you should. This is where your " records" are kept. :-)

reply to post by MamaJ


Hell is purely a state of mind. Nothing more, nothing less. This is what I believe. Therefore, that makes it true, right? This is a game of faith, is it not? Belief and faith work both ways, but you cannot play lackey to both causes. You must choose one or the other, and neither is more valid.

Logically speaking, either we both win, or we both lose. That's how this discussion of hell ends. By the time we find out, it won't matter who's right.

reply to post by AfterInfinity


Not so fast! It's more than just a state of mind, it's what our world has turned into as a result of that state of mind. People wanting more power and control and keeping the narrow-minded state of 'ME ME ME' has turned Earth into the cesspit it is now.

Earth is the closest thing to a hell that exists, and it's all because of greed.

reply to post by 3NL1GHT3N3D1


Hell is what you make of it. Hell is also how you see it.

But more than anything else...Hell is repetition. Repetition can destroy a man's mind, very easily.