What was God doing before creation and why did he wait an eternity to create the Universe.

Originally posted by MissingRonnieR
Who is to say what God has done. He created the heavens and the earth but that does in no way mean that is all that exist or has existed,

We comprehend what our limited minds and history can imagine or explorer. If we are but a grain at the bottom of the Atlantic who is to say we know anything of God other than what he believes we can comprehend.

Scientist can claim there is no God yet they can not comprehend eternity before or after our existance. There can be no beginning because there was none and no end other that this moment of ours that will end on a small planet, a grain of sand.

It always makes me laugh when people say that scientists claim there is no God. How many scientists do you know? I know plenty of scientists that believe in a Creator.

Here's my thoughts:

If there is a God, he's busy.

He has to move all the atoms in all the rocks, on all the planets, in all the solar systems, in all the galaxy, in all the universe,

and as there is the distinct possibility that within the background radiation from the big bang they have detected possible echoes of other big bangs - meaning that there could possibly be millions of "universes". ( And It's quite possible that if space is infinite, then scale is infinite and that at some point all these universes when seen from far enough out look just like an atom in a rock sitting on a planet in a solar system... and so on.... for ever.)

So basically, he doesn't give a **** about you or your kids.

It doesn't matter what prayers you utter. He will not listen and he will not intervene.

If he did, it would have implications for the philosophical concept of SIN which cannot exist without free will. Plus he'd reveal his presence which goes against the core philosophical concept of FAITH.

That piece of toast with the virgin mary on the front ain't a sign its a c-o-i-n-c-i-d-e-n-c-e. Get a new toaster!

He took a little bit of time out of infinity and sent down several prophets to tell everyone how to be nice to each other. A little bit of guidance. He said "don't judge people". "be nice to people". "live and let live". "love". "forgive".

So you don't actually need God. You just need to follow the instructions.

(Not the Bible, word for word, but the e-s-s--e-n-c-e).

That means: embrace everyone and call them a friend - yes even gay people you freaks - Jesus would have "hugged a gay". He wouldn't have put up a plaque saying "God hates f**s" - you really think he would?! Well, I'm shocked, you read the WHOLE BOOK and missed the message?!!

PS: For the record, I'm agnostic.

reply to post by redmotion

I don't quite understand your thinking, it may be my fault.

He has to move all the atoms in all the rocks, on all the planets, in all the solar systems, in all the galaxy, in all the universe,

So, He is concerned with every atom in the universe, making sure everything is right. And there may be many more universes in which atoms are getting his attention. He must have an infinite capacity for paying attention.

So basically, he doesn't give a **** about you or your kids.

But, with his infinite capacity for paying attention he can't spare any attention for people? See why I'm having some trouble following along?

On the lighter side on God/Religion here's a very funny sketch by a funny man -

***WARNING CONTAINS BAD LANGUAGE***

reply to post by redmotion


Since you mentioned the bible, I guess I can ask about angels then right? What are their purpose? There are quite a few I believe. They are supposed to number more than the stars...how many would that be? Do you suppose they help make his job easier? Idk!

reply to post by OrphenFire


Dear OrphenFire,

Funny, if we ask the same question about the universe, where it came from, we get the same possible answers.

1) One possibility is that time is a big circle. This would explain how something could "always exist" with no beginning. If God were here at the beginning, he was here at the end as well. His end is also his beginning. 2) God himself evolved from some prior universe. Maybe he emerged from the prior universe and immediately created this one. Maybe it took him eons to learn how to do it properly. Maybe there were other Gods, and they were all fighting a deathmatch across empty nothingness for the right to create the new universe and the one who won is who we got as "God". 3) Maybe God IS the universe and as soon as the big bang occurred, he existed. This would mean that he has "always existed" and he could take credit for creating everything since he was right there when it happened. Maybe he was the guiding force that made sure certain particles and molecules found each other in the mass chaos that was the beginning of everything.

I think the starting point is to redefine time. Einstein proved that time is relative. The bible says that a thousand years is like a day to God. We define time as the movement of matter through space; but, prior to there being matter would there be no time? Time began when God named himself and he named himself based on the fact that he was conscious and existed, creation came later.

If we choose another description of time we might get closer to the truth. Time, as we experience it, is the change in emotions and consciousness that we experience, time is subjective. There is no need for time to have an end. As for there being multiple gods, I don't see that. God is the universe, the totality of all that is, he may express himself in different manners in the same way that an actor can show us things as different characters; but, the totality of the universe is just that.

As for me, I see the big bang as the creation of us, not of God. He remains the totality and we are but parts, some of us are fingers and some of us are toes, some of us are heart and some of us are thoughts. Something from nothing makes little sense, to assume that the universe started from nothing has no scientific proof and it cannot be proven as we cannot go back to "nothing" again. Having said that, we know that consciousness exists or we could not even ask ourselves these questions. I am hard pressed to prove that I do not experience life or that I do not exist, reality however is much harder to prove and quantum physics is continually proving that the universe does not act as we thought and does very strange things.

Let us assume for one second that God does exist and created the universe, we must ask ourselves why he bothered to create it and us at all. While I do not believe we can have a perfect understanding, I think we can look at how the universe works and assume that it does it's job. To me, God works through nature. While we cannot show one animal morphing into another, we can show diversity within a species and the limits of that variation. Dogs are a wonderful example of this. We can also see this in planets and everything else. As much variation as can be achieved and continually finding variations upon variations. Another thing that we witness in living things is individuality, we even see this in bees and ants. Perhaps then, that is the purpose of the universe, to see how much variation can be attained and we have eternity to do it. Some variations fail and die off and others continue to find ways to evolve. If we look at the big bang, we would not assume eternal variation, we would assume that it would reach an end to variation. Peace.

I've found enough bugs and glitches in programs in my life to realize that I've seen a lot of bugs and glitches in real life.

reply to post by DCLXVI


I think our interpretations of space and time are very different to that of any hypothetical creator. You are trying to put into words and understand something that simply cannot be explained with our current understandings of time, space, and physics. Trying to is just pointless. Do you think that if there were a creator as such, they would have minutes? hours? days? nights? years? No... they don't live in our existence. You will never understand any of it until you're at their level of consciousness.

There is NO TIME with God. We're living 1 big day, according to HIM.
2 Peter 3:8

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

I will say this, the "who created God", question; is an awesome, thought provoking question. Mind boggling in fact. But, as long as we know that Something/Someone created what we call: earth. Who cares? Let's live in HIS 1 day!!! By faith!

BTW....The day we are living now, supposedly, is the 7th day. The day of rest! So, we're just playing out the creation of it all.
Gen 2:2-3

2By the seventh day God had finished the work HE had been doing; so on the seventh day HE rested from all HIS work. 3And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it HE rested from all the work of creating that HE had done.

John 19:30

When Jesus had received the sour wine, HE said, “It is finished,” and HE bowed HIS head and gave up HIS SPIRIT.

We ALL have a roll to play. We are ALL a part of HIS divine creation. Many things about our existence won't be known, til "IT IS FINISHED!" The completion of your life. Then, it's off to meet our Maker! "See you at the Crossroads." -(Bone, Thugs & Harmony)

Originally posted by DCLXVI

An animal with 18 heads that swims in clouds of sulfuric Acid.

how could that be before there were animals, heads, the number 18, clouds and sulfuric acid? make a new word that doesn't sound like any other sound or use any known words.

but that's right you said let's not make sense, ok, what was He doing before creation? He was an abstractionist. and why did He wait so long? He had creative-block.

reply to post by windword


Dear windword,

I don't believe that for a second! Helen Keller didn't have language to put her thoughts into words, but she had thoughts, the same as you or I. Thoughts are not language based. They are pictures, so to speak. Helen Keller knew how to get what she wanted. She played tricks on people and threw tantrums to get the attention she "thought" she needed. Being deaf and blind effected her ability to relate to her reality, but didn't inhibit her ability to put her thoughts into action.

Helen Keller was blind, please tell me where she had visions that were pictures. I did not say she did not know what she wanted; but, she had no symbology to organize those thoughts and we call that language. Her greatest thrill was when she did discover language and she wrote about it in her book.

I couldn't disagree more! Emotions are chemically induced, like adrenaline based fear, hormonal based rage, and pherone based love. God is not an emotional being. God doesn't get angry, or jealous, sad, repentive, or happy. I don't believe God is an external being, but being all that is!

We disagree over the chicken and the egg. Emotions cause chemical releases, choose to be angry and you will feel them. Choose to be happy and chemicals will be released that support that feeling, this has been proven too often by people who were sick and chose to watch comedies. Blaming hormones for our emotions is merely failing to take responsibility for our decisions.

There is no such thing a hell or being eternally alone. Nobody can steal your soul or lock you away from the whole. We are spiritual beings that are part of god, divided for experience. Hell is a device of fear, fear of loosing ones ego and becoming one with the ocean of consciousness, therefore loosing ones individuality. A drop of rain water may be isolated in the dessert, and evaporate, never knowing a lake or even a puddle, but it returns as reincarnated water.

You misunderstand me. We can choose to cut ourselves off from others, it is not a punishment, it is a decision. You appear to believe that someday we all become God, I have no evidence for this.

God doesn't "allow" us to be part of him, we "allow" God to be part of us by recognizing we are all connected and embracing and supporting each individuals journey back to the whole.

I did not say God was a person; but, a self aware being. I am not a gnostic nor do I believe in the mystery schools, we disagree and I was giving my answer to the OP. I see man's folly as believing that we can become God that is the true ego. Perhaps if you told me which school of belief you come from we could better understand one another. It should be no surprise that I am a Christian and that is who the question by the OP was directed at. Your comment regarding that we allow God to be part of us is partially true; but, very one sided and contradicts something you said earlier about their being no hell. What happens if we choose not to be one?

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by windword

 

Dear windword,

I don't believe that for a second! Helen Keller didn't have language to put her thoughts into words, but she had thoughts, the same as you or I. Thoughts are not language based. They are pictures, so to speak. Helen Keller knew how to get what she wanted. She played tricks on people and threw tantrums to get the attention she "thought" she needed. Being deaf and blind effected her ability to relate to her reality, but didn't inhibit her ability to put her thoughts into action.

Helen Keller was blind, please tell me where she had visions that were pictures. I did not say she did not know what she wanted; but, she had no symbology to organize those thoughts and we call that language. Her greatest thrill was when she did discover language and she wrote about it in her book.

Helen Keller was blinded by Scarlet Fever as a baby. She did see and hear at one time. Do you think a developing child in the womb has dreams? Do you think eyes are the only thing that provide visions. What about the Peneal gland, or third eye.

You seem to think as if language came before thought, as a kind repository for the chaos in our head. I think intention precedes language. Symbolism and thought are symbiotic, subconscious pictures. Even blind people see symbols in their dreams.

I couldn't disagree more! Emotions are chemically induced, like adrenaline based fear, hormonal based rage, and pherone based love. God is not an emotional being. God doesn't get angry, or jealous, sad, repentive, or happy. I don't believe God is an external being, but being all that is!

We disagree over the chicken and the egg. Emotions cause chemical releases, choose to be angry and you will feel them. Choose to be happy and chemicals will be released that support that feeling, this has been proven too often by people who were sick and chose to watch comedies. Blaming hormones for our emotions is merely failing to take responsibility for our decisions.

I think failure to take responsibility applies more to immaturity and lack of experience. Controlling one's emotions is a learned attribute for the most part. But there are people who are mentally imbalanced, whether it's due to chemical imbalance, brain damage, etc. there are many physical reasons for mental illness. It isn't always about character and fortitude. Not many can will disease away.

There is no such thing a hell or being eternally alone. Nobody can steal your soul or lock you away from the whole. We are spiritual beings that are part of god, divided for experience. Hell is a device of fear, fear of loosing ones ego and becoming one with the ocean of consciousness, therefore loosing ones individuality. A drop of rain water may be isolated in the dessert, and evaporate, never knowing a lake or even a puddle, but it returns as reincarnated water.

You misunderstand me. We can choose to cut ourselves off from others, it is not a punishment, it is a decision. You appear to believe that someday we all become God, I have no evidence for this.

I believe that we are now god. We belong to the same conscious ocean, that is god. We can't choose not to be who we are, we can only change what we do and how we perceive ourselves.

God doesn't "allow" us to be part of him, we "allow" God to be part of us by recognizing we are all connected and embracing and supporting each individuals journey back to the whole.

I did not say God was a person; but, a self aware being. I am not a gnostic nor do I believe in the mystery schools, we disagree and I was giving my answer to the OP. I see man's folly as believing that we can become God that is the true ego. Perhaps if you told me which school of belief you come from we could better understand one another. It should be no surprise that I am a Christian and that is who the question by the OP was directed at. Your comment regarding that we allow God to be part of us is partially true; but, very one sided and contradicts something you said earlier about their being no hell. What happens if we choose not to be one?

Please refer to my last comment.

reply to post by windword


Dear windword,

I believe that we are now god. We belong to the same conscious ocean, that is god. We can't choose not to be who we are, we can only change what we do and how we perceive ourselves.

And that is where we disagree. I neither believe that I am all that is or that all that is is me. That is Solipsism. The belief that you are everything has many problems. One of the problems is that if you are all that is and you bothered going to the trouble of creating the universe as an illusion in your head then you chose to be insane, to create an illusion and believe it. The second problem is if you went to all this trouble then why argue the point and claim it is not real? A third problem is that if I exist then you cannot be all that is and this dream is mine rather than yours. That would be true for everyone reading this.

I am not here to try and change your views, I came to answer the OP. If asked a question, I will always answer and I do not believe we need to ever agree. Peace.

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by windword

 

Dear windword,

I believe that we are now god. We belong to the same conscious ocean, that is god. We can't choose not to be who we are, we can only change what we do and how we perceive ourselves.

And that is where we disagree. I neither believe that I am all that is or that all that is is me. That is Solipsism. The belief that you are everything has many problems. One of the problems is that if you are all that is and you bothered going to the trouble of creating the universe as an illusion in your head then you chose to be insane, to create an illusion and believe it. The second problem is if you went to all this trouble then why argue the point and claim it is not real? A third problem is that if I exist then you cannot be all that is and this dream is mine rather than yours. That would be true for everyone reading this.

I am not here to try and change your views, I came to answer the OP. If asked a question, I will always answer and I do not believe we need to ever agree. Peace.

The OP offered the question in a thread to all ATS members to discuss.

You misunderstand my meaning. I don't think that I am everything. I am but a drop in the ocean. But, in this life, I have an individual identity, that will melt back into the sea of god. Each life I take more spiritual essence with me, and add more to collective consciousness, that is god.

I don't think I ever said that the universe is an illusion. I don't think it is, it's pretty solid from my point of view. But, from another perspective it could be very much more fluid.

I personally think that the idea of God is more of a force. The only way I can describe it is like in Fantastic 4: Rise of the Silver Surfer where there is that giant planet eating thing coming to destroy Earth. Not saying "God" eats planets but it's easier for me to get my head around thinking of it like that. Just like Gods in religions named after planets etc, I see ancients as attributing people to planets to understand space and God is just one of those attributions.

I realise this doesn't even bare relevance to the thread haha seeing as I can't come up with anything for what "God" was doing before..It hurts my head to think of it. Knowing we are on a planet in space in a galaxy in a universe etc etc makes me feel a bit ill and scares me...

I must concede that contemplation has always been one of my strong points...
I repeatedly become lost down the rabbit hole.

I have so much to contribute to threads like these, but whenever I begin to form a response, I feel my thoughts begin to haze and slip away. I liken it to a variable lampshade, that can be manipulated to shroud the flow of the Truth.

To borrow a phrase from a favorite TV show, "The Truth Is Out There"...

Sites like this one can offer many glimpses into the hearts and minds of other individuals who, like me, want to find the answers. The problems begin when we get into areas of perceived reality that differ from others' perceptions.

When you believe something, you automatically incorporate it into your thought process. It becomes difficult to set those thoughts and beliefs, and the emotions associated with them, aside when contemplating things outside of our comfort zone, intellectually speaking.

I have the unfortunate ability to find fault in everything that comes from man. Even those that I respect and trust, tend to do and say things that I don't necessarily agree with. This always leads me to look at the source for these disagreements. Do they spring from me? Is it my faults that arise, when I feel the Truth being denied? Or is it the one speaking or acting, that gives me cause for dismay? Or...Could it be something else all together? A force that resides on this planet, that is a master of disguise, deception and trickery?

I'd like to say that I have the answers. But, unfortunately, I can only tell you what I believe.

When I ponder the likeness of God, I see what the Bible tells me that he looks like. We were made in His image. But that goes against everything else, that we perceive from our Creator. We see each other as bumbling idiots. How could God, look like us? How could a being that looks like a man, have the unimaginable power to do what He must have done? So...This forces us to look at man. What qualities have we been able to quantify, as the essense of man? What greatness have we recorded? What miracles have we written of, and talked about? What man has ever lived and been documented to have ever came close to being what we perceive as the the most powerful entity imaginable? The Truth that existed in human form, with the Power of God?

I can think of only one...

The problem with being human, is our inability to conceive the sheer Power involved with being God! Our greatest achievments and abilities are a mere shadow, in the presence of the Almighty. The sole reason that a man could not survive being in the presence of Him, is because to "see" Him, would be to know Him. And to know what He is, would be so physically and emotionally overwhelming, in our current form, we would be unable to hold it all. The weight of Everything, forced into our tiny brains...I picture a universal-sized black hole, with a density down to a singularity...Exploding! Like a reverse big bang, and then a big bang again...


What was God doing before he made man? Hmmmm...

God was and is, existing. But the very meaning of the word, "exist", incorporates time. Why? Because that is how we think. But why do we think in terms of time? I believe that it is by design. We are programmed to think this way. Why? And by Whom? Man would have us believe that we invented time, to track the seasons, so that we could optimize our harvests. But I postulate a different theory.

What if time was incorporated into our DNA? What if our so-called biological clock had a more auspicious purpose? Suppose, contrary to those who cater to reincarnation theory, that we only have ONE life, to figure out why we live in the first place? Why should we get a do-over?

There is much too much evidence on our planet to dismiss intelligent design. It is in everything that we can experience with our senses. And, in everything that we can't experience, in this lifeform. But even the latter, beckons to us, if we would only acknowledge it!

I kept you long enough, but let me finish by saying this;
Every man, woman and child on this planet, was born with a purpose. The "gift of life" sounds so profound, but let me say that it is not. The true gift given to us by our Creator, is the one of consciousness.
This life is merely a conduit for the opportunity to be self-aware. And, as a sentient being we have been tasked with fulfilling our purpose. There has to be a reason for existence. Otherwise, God would have kept doing, whatever is was that He was doing, before He created us...

I didn't intend for my post to be a thread-killer...

No one has a rebuttal?

reply to post by DCLXVI


I'm an atheist now but I'm a former Christian and former Old Earth Creationist. One of the main reasons I never fell in with the Young Earth crowd was that God was meant to be eternal so why limit him to 6,000 years? This is the same reason I also was open to the idea of alien life even as a Christian, the idea that this planet was God's only project, in a cosmos this big that's been around this long, seemed illogical.

One of the main theological questions I like to pose to Christians now is where does God's morality come from? If God waited billions of years for intelligent life to evolve (or created it in six days) than where does his omnibenevolence come from. After all morality deals with interactions of intelligent feeling beings, so without some intelligent feeling beings to interact with God has no basis for his morality. There are no other gods in Christian theology, so where do God's morals come from?

You think of a white background when you imagine a time before existence, it's funny because I think of the exact opposite. A dark emptiness and a swirling chaos of primordial pre-existence. Whether there was a deity in that swirl of existence has yet to be demonstrated, needless to say as an atheist and an agnostic I have my doubts

Originally posted by GoOfYFoOt

I'd like to say that I have the answers. But, unfortunately, I can only tell you what I believe.

Wise words that I rarely hear from Christians. Very honest and humble. I don't really know either and doubt I even have firm beliefs as to the possibility of some sort of creator. Though I do have the belief that the popular religious/biblical style deity contradicts facts and common sense to the point it simply has no merit. It doesn't exist IMO.

The problem with being human, is our inability to conceive the sheer Power involved with being God! Our greatest achievments and abilities are a mere shadow, in the presence of the Almighty. The sole reason that a man could not survive being in the presence of Him, is because to "see" Him, would be to know Him. And to know what He is, would be so physically and emotionally overwhelming, in our current form, we would be unable to hold it all. The weight of Everything, forced into our tiny brains...I picture a universal-sized black hole, with a density down to a singularity...Exploding! Like a reverse big bang, and then a big bang again...

There are some beautiful descriptions of "god" even on this very site occasionally, some of which at least appear to come from direct experience. I wouldn't discount them all. What if "god" is beauty and intelligence beyond the human mind to grasp, yet still capable of being experienced, though the experience itself something that words would simply fail to impart to others? Something eternal yet so far beyond notions of individuality that it makes a complete mockery of biblical style "deities"?

Perhaps something that is fundamentally the heart of existence itself. That doesn't punish, make moral laws or grant favors. Cares not whether a leaf falls or an entire species becomes extinct on our little speck of dust. It simply "is" with no other reason than to "be"?

There is much too much evidence on our planet to dismiss intelligent design. It is in everything that we can experience with our senses. And, in everything that we can't experience, in this lifeform. But even the latter, beckons to us, if we would only acknowledge it!

I disagree. The laws of our universe led to what we have today via natural processes. Though whether the processes began from, or belong to an intelligence "of sorts" could be another question. Semantics possibly.

I kept you long enough, but let me finish by saying this;
Every man, woman and child on this planet, was born with a purpose. The "gift of life" sounds so profound, but let me say that it is not. The true gift given to us by our Creator, is the one of consciousness.
This life is merely a conduit for the opportunity to be self-aware. And, as a sentient being we have been tasked with fulfilling our purpose. There has to be a reason for existence. Otherwise, God would have kept doing, whatever is was that He was doing, before He created us...

It is easier to ponder our purpose while being at the top of the food chain, from the relative security and comfort of a modern society. Yet nature doesn't work this way and many of our species live in such tremendous hardships that they might have a wholly different opinion re our purpose or any "gifts". I wouldn't disagree that consciousness could hold more answers, yet that would include not only humans and could have far more implications than we can understand yet.

To watch the Wildebeest while a group of ravenous lions pounce on and devour one of their own, Buffalo look on helplessly while the same group down and begin eating one of their group while still alive, too exhausted to do anything about it...We are part of the processes of nature with it's beauty and incredible cruelty and also rely on similar practices simply to survive...There is nothing more cruel than nature IMO. This alone would make you wonder about the sanity of a being/deity/god who claims this design out of love and has the capacity to intervene with his creation. For too many reasons to list here (not the least a complete lack of anything directly indicating "god's" existence) it becomes obvious there is no personal religious deity willing to help us. There is no divine intervention, we have to do it all ourselves.

Yet it seems very likely that there is "something". It usually seems IMO that religion (particularly fundamentalism) and spirituality are mutually exclusive. One settles for stories, the other seeks to know.

I have doubts the beginning of our universe was the beginning of existence. It was the beginning of existence as we presently know and understand it though. The beginning of the processes which allowed life to flourish and evolve on this planet (and possibly many others). Perhaps this is a cycle?

reply to post by Cogito, Ergo Sum


I appreciate your response, and while we don't necessarily see eye to eye, I would like to continue our discussion.

On your first point, I believe that the biblical version of God is the only one which has merit. As far as being "popular", I believe that a vast majority of "feel good" churches are merely pandering to the uneducated masses, and offer no real substance.
As for the contradictions, you refer to, I'm unaware of any that can be soundly substantiated. And, yes, I've read many a paper on all of the ones supposedly found in the Bible. My problem with them is not just the lack of context, but more someone telling me how to interpret something as personal as the path to Faith...
One's opinion of what a particular passage of scripture is intended to mean, can very greatly, based on many a factor. The sole criteria for interpretation, again, lies only with the individual.

On your second point, I too, believe that there are many possible ways to define God, and I too, believe that the Truth lies beyond our comprehension. Most have experienced some sort of overwhelming emotion that caused an uncontrolable physical reaction. True joy, is almost always accompanied by tears. But to comprehend Pure Love, is humanly impossible, let alone attempting to describe it.

All too often, we strive to place ourselves on an equal footing with our Creator, and we always come crashing back to reality. Our conceit and arrogance will be the downfall of many, whilst the humble and meek shall inherit the earth.

I believe that our purpose is to recognize that as humans, we are imperfect. Realizing that to obtain perfection, we must first accept our place in the Grand Design. We are inferior. We are tarnished. Our only God-send, is the Son, and through Him and Him alone, can we obtain eternity. I think that the Bible lays out the perfect course to achieve that goal. But, I also believe that there are innumerable paths to that destination. Sorry for the preaching. I'll get back to our discussion...

Like you, I see much pain and hate in the world. Killing and torture. Decimation and genocide. And, I struggle to see how it fits in God's plan. I can only say that I do believe that it fits. And, for obvious reasons, I just can't put the pieces together. I can say that my belief system is founded on Faith, and the peace that I feel when contemplating such things can not be described. But, to one who has little or no Faith, it just doesn't make sense to them at all. They can't feel what I do, and resort to their own belief systems, and only find a lack of logic and emptiness. Then they generally dismiss all of what I said, as deluded words of an indoctrinated cultist.
But, my incessant quest to find the bridge required to span the gap of our differences continues, as I believe it does exist.

On your next point, I believe that the Truth lies within all accepted sciences and theories. Somehow, whatever we can prove that seems to contradict the Bible, must have a way to co-exist. Whether the problem lies with interpretation or with theory, I can't say. The fact is, that once again, I believe arrogance is the fuel for many who revel in the assumptions of contradiction. I choose to leave my jury in recess.

In close, I'd surmise that consciousness itself, is the greatest indicator of a higher Power. Let alone things like DNA, and quantum mechanics. The more we ascertain about the quantum world, the less remains consistent in the macro one. We are steadily redefining what we know and what we think we know. To the point that intelligence seems to be becoming the new religion! When the likes of Dr. Stephen Hawking and Dr. Michio Kaku are being worshipped for their abilities, we have to question the basis for it all.
Don't get me wrong. I'm all for understanding as much as we can about the reality that we live in. But, the difference between one who thirsts for knowledge and one who obsesses over it, can be an express embodiment of Faith. The ability to accept that there are some things, that humanly, we can never possibly know, is the epitome of sincerity to God.