Fear Mongering Over Defense Budget Cuts

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


I agree with that for what we spend there should be a lot of things different I honestly think that the majority of the monies slated for defense don't go to where it is suppose to.

Government corruption is what i think like the GSA etc.

And here is another graphic about US spending

mat.usc.edu...

800 billion on education there are a lot of examples.

reply to post by neo96

That is an interesting graphic. You'd find me among those that would like to see the Dept of Education disbanded entirely though and State determination of schooling to a universally agreed to standard of final literacy is that solution, IMO.

I have to tell you though Neo, there are stories I research in the time I spend on ATS practicing that very skill for college among other things, which I wish I hadn't touched and just played a video game for the evening instead. This is one of those after finding this:

World Comparison of Nation GDP

It's not even about politics. Those numbers are from the CIA Factbook, but those who are paranoid about the CIA on the little bit it does do well..sources all over match the numbers on the basic issue of GDP. Of course, GDP isn't national budget, it's the TOTAL value of EVERYTHING a nation produces in a year. Every sale, service and product.

I know you know that but I wanted to say it to put the number into context for everyone. I literally feel sick. If the United States Defense Budget (not including black budgets) were it's own NATION........In a list of 227 nations, it would be the 25th largest economy in the world.

Okay, this is DEFENSE?? C'mon... It's more than the GDP of 202 other nations for crying out loud. I feel like the 2012 movie and learning of the trillion dollar Arks being built for years...

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Then spending 2.2 trillion on social programs would make that the worlds 10th largest "Economy".

Going by that.

Yes?

No?

reply to post by neo96

There is no such thing as the "military industrial complex" come on now think got to have an industrial base to have complex and since everything is made in China or the Eu that phrase is BS for anti corporate marxists.

Spoken like a true disinfo agent.

reply to post by Blackmarketeer


Spoken like someone who would rather talk about posters instead of the topic.

defensetech.org...

www.schneier.com...

So agian how the hell is there a military industrial complex when American has no industrial base?

Everywhere I look all i see is made in China and imported from China.

A new report commissioned by the AFL-CIO Industrial Union Council and authored by Dr. Joel Yudken finds that the ongoing erosion of the U.S. manufacturing base has left critical holes in the America's national security.

Yudken's report, Manufacturing Insecurity, reports that "there are advanced technologies critical to military systems—armor plate steel, defense-specific integrated circuits, night vision goggles—for which domestic sources are inadequate."

Yudken says that significant numbers of items once supplied by U.S. manufacturers are now obtained from foreign suppliers because they are "not readily available from U.S. producers." He cites Col. Michael Cole, of the U.S. Joint Forces Command, who observe

the problem is not just a matter of a handful of highly specialized items designed to meet narrow defense requirements, but the “eradication of U.S. industry capability.” He also warns that current strategies to deal with an industrial base that increasingly is unable to supply the military with manufactured parts and electronic components are not working.

americanmanufacturing.org...

That really is some MIC.

As far as International arms dealers go and rank... Well... I really wish there were arguments against certain things but, hell... There is this way of looking at it. We gotta be honest with ourselves, as a nation I mean, before we can DO something about it.

SIPRI Top 100 International Arms Producers

The U.S. Companies hold 13 of the 20 top spots. 7 of the top 10. The names are familiar...or should be. Both U.S. and the top ones abroad. It looks right to me and what I can look up supports it, not disproves it.

What Eisenhower warned us about kinda snuck up when people weren't looking and it all came claiming the best of intentions...but the figures. It's just... out of control. The wars never end at this rate and it won't just be my kid who was just born around the time the towers came down and fighting in the same wars, but HIS kid.

I honestly didn't realize until this work tonight, just HOW out of control...but this is just indefensible. The numbers are clear into the stupid category in terms of dollars to benefits. We're getting screwed... The troops are getting screwed and I don't even see what we get at the mind boggling numbers. I just flat out don't.

I have always been a hawk when it comes to military spending.

1) Our troops deserve the best
2) Too small a military invites aggression against us and our allies
3) and makes any war we do have to fight longer and costlier to all involved.
4) A large and complex military provides national capabilites other than just war...when it comes to humanitarian and disaster relief, nothing beats the transport, medical, manpower, and other capabilities of the US military.

HOWEVER:

With our current fiscal issues we will need to make some cuts on the armed forces (along with social programs), particularily the active duty forces. With the National Guard combat units, you have good, reasonably trained military that can be called up with only a minimal amount of refresher training ready in the event of a large war. A smaller active force can still power project if needed (albiet not to the scale we are normally used too. Of course global commitments and interests would have to be looked at).

I know many would complain ( I wouldn't be thrilled either), but I think if you cut the Active Army from 10+ divisions down to about 6+ divisions (with some restructuring within the divisions to give them a bit more capability), and the carrier force from 10 to 6, (putting the 2 in reserve and 2 in mothball status) and cutting about 20% of the fighter squadron's (especially older F-15's and F-16s units), you could have massive savings, and still quite the capable force. With the National Guard as backup (you would need to modernized some of it, maybe increase equipment and training on certain key units). A substantial (but certainly not complete) reduction in overseas postings would have to be looked at as well.

There are some risks with the above, but if done in specific ways could cut a huge amount of spending and still give us the most capable military on the planet.

Before I begin, I will tell you I am a defense contractor. I work in the cyber field. With that being said...

The military budget needs to be reduced, but NOT sequestered. Blind cuts across the board make no sense.

The cuts can be made, and if done smartly will improve not only the military but our other budgetary concerns as well.

Here's how you do it...

1. Continue to trim the size of the regular standing Army. Use some of the money to continue to train and upgrade special forces units and technology. The mistake we continue to make when dealing with 'terrorist/guerilla' threats is that we keep putting our soldiers in harms way using the same outdated Rules of Engagement that place them at a disadvantage.

reply to post by neo96

So agian how the hell is there a military industrial complex when American has no industrial base?

Everywhere I look all i see is made in China and imported from China.

We still have plenty of defense contractors, and they love bilking the government for billions in corporate welfare. But congratulations in making one of the "lefties" arguments, that outsourcing has been extremely damaging to the economy - you even used the AFL-CIO Web site to make the same point they've been making for years! Congratulations, you must be some sort of libtard!

You know, of course, that the presumptive GOP nominee is a HUGE fan of outsourcing, and not just your typical outsourcing of low-level textile jobs - Mitt Romney outsourced HIGH-TECH jobs of patented technology - to China.

(See: Mitt Romney Invested Millions in Firms That Pioneered High-Tech Outsourcing)

But all this [political] scuffling hasn't taken into account an until-now unreported fact about Romney's days at Bain: When he was running the private equity firm, he invested tens of millions of dollars in a pair of companies that specialized in outsourcing high-tech manufacturing and that developed offshore production facilities in Mexico, China, and elsewhere to build electronics for US firms.

Romney is the sole owner of Brookside Capital Investors, Inc., which poured millions into Flextronics and Jabil Circuit Inc. Romney's SEC reports clearly stating how Bain and Mitt Romney poured millions into firms (via Brookside) that specifically targeted technology firms in the US for relocation to China, India, and Mexico to build electronics for US firms. The pair of companies he invested tens of millions of dollars in are Flextronics International and Jabil Circuit Inc.

But that doesn't mean the Military-Industrial Complex is dead - far from it. We still pay billions to be fleeced by special interest contractors who have a cozy relationship with the government and will always need to have a thriving war economy to ensure the money train keeps on flowing;




Past threads on the MIC;

• Eisenhower was right about the Military-Industrial Complex!
  
• The Military Industrial Complex At Work - USA 60 Years of War...No End In Sight
  
• POLITICS: 08: "Military Industrial Complex"
  
• Military-Industrial Complex from Eisenhower to Obama (Video)
  
• Joe Rogan explains the military industrial complex to the average joe
  
• 12 Facts About Military Spending That Will Make Your Head Explode
  
• and on and on....

To reign in the budget -
- end the tax incentives to offshore jobs
- end the cozy $$$ relationship between military contractors and congress
- restore sane tariffs and trade barriers
- trim the fat from defense, welfare

Welfare and unemployment are economic stabilizers, they kick in when the economy goes down and jobs are lost. Restore sanity in our trade practices and bring those jobs back to the USA will automatically lower welfare and unemployment. You can't keep increasing offshoring and outsourcing, and expect unemployment to go down. The more Corporate Welfare we give out along with tax incentives for companies to flee the USA, the more the unemployment for those displaced workers goes up. Republicans want to kill the budget for unemployment, and use that freed up money to give even more money to the Corporate Welfare Queens. It's a vicious downward cycle that won't end until every worker in the United States is as dirt poor and impoverished as workers in China, Mexico and India, and the 1% corporate elite have taken ownership of everything the middle class has lost.

(misclick, continued below)

2. With the exception of the US Naval Base in Japan, the troops along the DMZ in Korea, and perhaps the base on the Deigo Gargia atoll, close the other forward deployed bases around the world. The locals don't want us there, the bases are prohibitively expensive, and with aircraft carriers, ballistic submarines, and the Military Sealift Command the US can get anywhere quickly and with an aplomb of firepower.

3. Completely overhaul the GSA and licensing contracts for EVERY program that costs over $500 million. The GSA is a joke and the goverment does a terrible job, as we know, with trying to be good stewards of tax dollars. The amount of waste I see every day is sickening... an example... I was tasked with identifying what new, if any, equipment we could use. Seeing as how my office is cyber oriented, and how 80% of the people here were trying to do packet analysis on laptop and 15" monitors, I went online to a bulk retailer and requested 5 24" monitors, all under $165 and made by a very good manufacturer. I submitted the order to HQ.... It was denied. INSTEAD, I was sent 5 27" monitors, each costing over $300, from a GSA approved vendor. I had tried, and been denied, to save some of the taxpayers money. Frustrating.

Anyways, just my opinion.

Originally posted by neo96
Really do love the BS about defense spending some people try to play off the simple fact the majority of the Federal Budget goes to SS,Medicare,Medicaid.

Over 2 trillion dollars every year goes to those 3 that is not counting any other swww.usdebtclock.org... just exactly what is going to happen to those people who lose those jobs?

Oh yeah still get paid on social programs.

Fear mongering?

The rest of the world is arming and modernizing their militaries and the morons disarm this country much like what Clinton did.

See how long this country lasts with a "walmart military",

edit on 6-8-2012 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

The points remain:

1. It's a small cut, back to 2006 levels
2. We spend many times more than any other nation on defense, it's simply not necessary
3. There's a ton of waste in the defense industry, why toss more money? they NEED to learn to spend wisely
4. We were doing fine after Clinton cut defense

I would keep a couple of the bases in Germany. We might not need to station large numbers of combat troops like in the Cold War (and we still have, albiet a much smaller contingent of combat troops) but the facilities make deployment to anything in Euriope, the Med and parts of the Middle East much less expenseive. Also helps support our NATO obligations.

Originally posted by Dreine
(misclick, continued below)

2. With the exception of the US Naval Base in Japan, the troops along the DMZ in Korea, and perhaps the base on the Deigo Gargia atoll, close the other forward deployed bases around the world. The locals don't want us there, the bases are prohibitively expensive, and with aircraft carriers, ballistic submarines, and the Military Sealift Command the US can get anywhere quickly and with an aplomb of firepower.

3. Completely overhaul the GSA and licensing contracts for EVERY program that costs over $500 million. The GSA is a joke and the goverment does a terrible job, as we know, with trying to be good stewards of tax dollars. The amount of waste I see every day is sickening... an example... I was tasked with identifying what new, if any, equipment we could use. Seeing as how my office is cyber oriented, and how 80% of the people here were trying to do packet analysis on laptop and 15" monitors, I went online to a bulk retailer and requested 5 24" monitors, all under $165 and made by a very good manufacturer. I submitted the order to HQ.... It was denied. INSTEAD, I was sent 5 27" monitors, each costing over $300, from a GSA approved vendor. I had tried, and been denied, to save some of the taxpayers money. Frustrating.

Anyways, just my opinion.

A friend of mine works in defense contracting and it's her job to review those quotes to make sure that they aren't over inflated.. ( to make sure the tax payer gets a good deal ) .. I realize though that many of the contractors out there do a horrible job.. but at least some are trying.. My ex girlfriend's dad was a defense contractor.. they are a VERY wealthy family..

Originally posted by neo96
Really do love the BS about defense spending some people try to play off the simple fact the majority of the Federal Budget goes to SS,Medicare,Medicaid.

Over 2 trillion dollars every year goes to those 3 that is not counting any other swww.usdebtclock.org... just exactly what is going to happen to those people who lose those jobs?

Oh yeah still get paid on social programs.

Fear mongering?

The rest of the world is arming and modernizing their militaries and the morons disarm this country much like what Clinton did.

See how long this country lasts with a "walmart military",

edit on 6-8-2012 by neo96 because: (no reason given)

If I understand you correctly, you appear to say that running a huge military is the sole reason for the existence of the USA?

reply to post by Blackmarketeer

We still have plenty of defense contractors, and they love bilking the government for billions in corporate welfare.

Still pushing garbage i see don't let the facts get in the way of bashing the evil Right wingers oh like these:

www.washingtontimes.com...

www.nationaldefensemagazine.org...

5440fight.com...

reply to post by miniatus


The gutting of the military led to that last decade of war but hey go on gut the military it's what people want say good bye to all those wonderful technological advancements like

Gps,,Flir,telecom satellites,internet to name a few.

Originally posted by neo96
reply to post by miniatus

 

The gutting of the military led to that last decade of war but hey go on gut the military it's what people want say good bye to all those wonderful technological advancements like

Gps,,Flir,telecom satellites,internet to name a few.

[Citation Needed] on the last decade of war.
I think all of our advancements, and those that they have that we don't see...yet; came from the black ops programs.

Why are you arguing against the quote in your signature?

Our current budget is unsustainable, this much is fact. They [Military] must be spending lots of money for some reason, that we don't know about due to "National Security".

reply to post by Skada


Arguing agianst my signature? Nope

In FY 2013, mandatory spending is budgeted at 60% of total Federal spending, and 2 1/2 times as much as the military budget. The mandatory budget is estimated to be $2.293 trillion, a new record. The mandatory budget was $2.252 trillion in FY 2012 and $2.073 trillion in FY 2011.

useconomy.about.com...

Entitlement spending is 2 and half times greater than military which I have said but people just seem to ignore the elephant is the room is over 150 million people on the government taxpayer dime.

70 million on SS
70 million on medicare
50 million on medicaid
50 million on welfare.

All the tax revenue those evil defense corporations pay for those programs and their middle class employees.

But hey GO ON GUT DEFENSE

reply to post by neo96


I'm not arguing against welfare spending being a big problem, I just have a few questions.

1) Are these 150 million people on these programs not taxpayers themselves who've helped to fund these very programs out of their own pockets?
2) How much are they receiving in relation to how much they've been required to pay out in taxes to fund these programs?
3) How much are they cumulatively receiving in relation to how much of the trust funds for these programs are being required and put forth to purchase debt securities?(Which comes to an entirely different issue of how those securities are to be paid for; essentially with more taxpayer money, no? which would mean the taxpayer is basically paying twice over for these programs)
4)How does any of that discredit a military industrial complex?

Once again, I'm just skeptical, not so much cynical, towards your POV

reply to post by jlm912


Read the above article link

For SS a person paysw 6% via payroll taxes the employer matches at another 6 % and receive far more than they ever paid in.

Medicare is automatically deducted from that SS check and the difference is made up by new people and rasing taxes.

Medicaid paid fo by taxes

Welfare paid for by taxes

Have to have a job to collect SS but there are people who have never worked a day in their lives.

The average SS check Average is $1000 some more some less hence the average.

Have no idea how much the average welfare check is.

They are paying more than twice over for those programs the majority of those people has zero tax liability and are receiving far more tax revenue from others than they ever pay in.

welfare-medicaid-SS-medicare that is what a person who will get from craddle to grave


Discrediting the defense complex if people can't see the trillions of wealth and jobs destroyed by social engineering so be it.

Doesn't matter Go on Gut defense and they will still end up spending more on those social programs;
IT is a huge problem that we can not pay for

This is America

www.usdebtclock.org...