Voucher schools in Louisiana include some teaching creationism

Originally posted by cconn487
At least it lets children come to their own conclusions rather than evolving from monkeys.

What?
Why should children ever be left to come to their own conclusions about the things they need to learn? How about math, physics, English? Should school just be done away with and parental guidance a thing of the past? I sure as hell do not want to grow old into a world where I will be taken care of by Dr. I made up my own mind at 11.

reply to post by Southern Guardian

This is not only an issue of voluntary stultification funded by taxpayers... it is subsequently also hurting the U.S. in the long run from an economic point of view.

I postet this in another thread about creationism taught in U.S. schools:

Originally posted by ColCurious

Nothing says "hire me" like a diploma from disney world.[...]

Poor kids... this equals child abuse IMO.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Dear Wrabbit2000,

I strongly urge you to read Professor Cord's book. He was one of the most intellectually honest men I have ever known in my life. When I met him I was just coming to be a believer. He talked about the Constitution; but, not from a political standpoint, he talked about it from an objective standpoint. I will never forget sitting him in his apartment with a couple of other students while he asked us to ask him anything we wondered about. It was an atheist that taught me that religion was something that we could honestly consider and that having the freedom to honestly consider everything was free will and right. He taught me the real issue and we disagreed, the real issue is about compulsion, forcing people to learn what you believe is absolutely the truth.

He asked me a question once. He asked me if I thought that world should be run by the best (a very Platonic belief) and I told him that they should be chosen not per-selected (I am Aristotelian). It is late, good night. Peace.

reply to post by AQuestion


@AQuestion

Star for the reply, and I will look at that when I get a bit of time.

@ Thread

In general here, there is something to keep in mind and it's no small thing at all. As much as some Atheists and others would like to imagine this isn't a Christian nation, that is simply untrue and it's provably untrue. We won't get into how the Nation was based on Christian values as that SHOULD be self evident in reading the Documents we're founded on. It's literally written right across them. In clear words. Several times. No denomination, of course and that is how it should be. The Church of England with the King/Queen as it's actual Head is what the founding fathers had just left and had foremost in mind for Church, State and the nightmare the two become when mixed.

78% of Americans Self Identify as Christian

Quick Breakdown of the 78% and additional information

The numbers are somewhat in flux and downward from what things are saying, but the numbers don't show that's losing Faith as much as changing it. It seems to me that picking fights where it isn't necessary isn't the best way of finding middle ground or compromise. Attacking this in Louisiana and along the Bible belt, for example. Compromise can't simply mean the Christian side just erases everything they have at the table and goes away. Umm..eventually, the backlash is going to hurt and I'm one of the smaller religious minorities myself.

@That makes a second real solid reason that maybe, bashing the schools that ARE teaching the kids, when the Public ones can't hack it isn't the most productive thing. In my Opinion.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by cconn487
At least it lets children come to their own conclusions rather than evolving from monkeys.

Evolution is an accepted scientific theory, creationism (Intelligent design) is not. Regardless, if parents don't want their kids to learn about scientific theories, if parents want kids to learn about Christianity and how the Earth was made in 6 days by God or Allah, more power to them, they dictate what's best for their own children, just don't do it on my dime. I'm not interested at all in having my tax payer money fund your religious beliefs.

It has nothing to do with religion. We probably will never know the answer to questions like this so no matter what side of the argument you are on, nobody is right or wrong.

Its just a grey area and people choose which shade of grey they want to be in.

Schools ought to teach the opinion of scientists in the relevant fields, thats what they are for. It should not be up to politicians or parents what schools teach. Do parents or some bat# crazy politicians also get to decide that 1+1=3 ? This is no less absurd.

Originally posted by nunyadammm

Originally posted by cconn487
At least it lets children come to their own conclusions rather than evolving from monkeys.

What?
Why should children ever be left to come to their own conclusions about the things they need to learn? How about math, physics, English? Should school just be done away with and parental guidance a thing of the past? I sure as hell do not want to grow old into a world where I will be taken care of by Dr. I made up my own mind at 11.

Why do adults bribe their children with stories of a fat man bringing them gifts down the chimney once every year only if they behave? If you can get a child to believe that, you can get a child to believe anything. Just because a teacher or parent tells their child something does not make it 100% fact. It is based on what they were taught. Who knows maybe they were taught wrong.

Nobody knows the facts on issues like this. I'm not saying I know the answers, I truly believe nobody knows a fraction of what they think they know. Myself included.

reply to post by cconn487

Nobody knows the facts on issues like this. I'm not saying I know the answers, I truly believe nobody knows a fraction of what they think they know. Myself included.

Yeah, because you surely have studied the issue in-depth. I think you dont know, and you are just projecting your own ignorance on others.

And even if some of our scientific theories are wrong, it does not change anything. The purpose of education is to teach the opinion of scientists in relevant fields, whether true or false. If you disagree with this opinion, then teach your childen at home whatever you wish, but dont call it a school and dont take taxpayer money for it. But denying them scientific facts or pretending that your opinion has equal validity by teaching it in school should be illegal.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
We won't get into how the Nation was based on Christian values

Explain to us what "christian values" are these? "Freedom" is not a christian value, it's not a belief that originated from the bible. "Liberty" is not a christian value either, there isn't anything in the constitution that is uniquely "Christian". Many christians may hold values of freedom, of rights, but that does not make those values uniquely Christian. This is something evangelicals cannot seem to comprehend or understand. There's a reason why we don't have a religious test for office in this country.

You are more than entitled to your personal beliefs, your religion, just keep my tax payer money and my government out of it. Leave my freedoms alone and I'll leave yours.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Two things to add further.

1. This country wasn't built on majority rule, the founders full well understood where majority rule would lead to, mob rule. So it's silly on your part to pull out the fact that close the 80% of this country identifies as christian. This is something I would have figured you could have understood Wrabbit.

2. Please provide us examples of these values mentioned in the constitution that are uniquely "Christian", I am really curious.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
reply to post by Wrabbit2000

 

Two things to add further.

1. This country wasn't built on majority rule, the founders full well understood where majority rule would lead to, mob rule. So it's silly on your part to pull out the fact that close the 80% of this country identifies as christian. This is something I would have figured you could have understood Wrabbit.

2. Please provide us examples of these values mentioned in the constitution that are uniquely "Christian", I am really curious.

It's not about majority rule, it's about being decent people and not picking fights simply because it CAN be done....when perhaps, it really doesn't NEED to be done and in the end, really shouldn't BE done.

Now, if the 10 Commandments hanging in the Supreme Court doesn't indicate something pretty clear, nothing possibly can. Those aren't in the absolute final level of Constitutional judgement by mistake. It's the VALUES though, not the theology and that's what people who get so offended seem to miss or just ignore. I don't get offended by it and I'm not Christian. The VALUES seem common sense and they seem perfectly reasonable for civilized society. They DO, in fact, find their basis in the Holy Bible and those pesky Commandments everyone gets mad about. Again, it's literally carved in stone within the same building where the final word on law is given.


Please keep in mind though, my original point was that if we had working schools that weren't producing functional idiots and dysfunctional people as a routine matter, we wouldn't need to debate Vouchers into schools with Faith content. That is where productive change would be.....wouldn't it? If this is about the minds of the kids, lets focus our energies on getting them back into those classrooms you demand be to totally secular in every conceivable way. Simply making the schools work will give everyone the end result they want.


There is another solution and it's by far, the best one. The 10th Amendment means what it says. The Document doesn't specify a Department of Education. Disband it. Allow the states to control how their people are educated to the standards of basic literacy testing the states can come to agreement on. That way those in Los Angeles or other locations that might just faint dead away in horror at a mention of the Bible being made, never have to. Those in Missouri or other states in the Bible Belt states CAN mention it, if they choose to...and not fear Federal sanction and penalty.

This WHOLE debate is actually the very purpose of the 10th Amendment...to avoid it ever happening. Who pays attention to that old document though? We all know better how to tell each other across this vast nation, how to live.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
Whether they aren't officially doing it, religion should be a private matter. No religious institution should be receiving tax payer money or funding, this isn't the purpose of government, surely you should understand this.

First, providing education is not the purpose of government. However, as with many aspects of government, they have their hand in this, if not control the majority. When people are taxed, some of that money goes towards education. The state of Louisiana decided that if parents wanted, they would be given a voucher for the amount the state pays to educate a child and they can choose the apply that money towards another school. This is where I have an issue with the program. They only opened it up almost entirely to religious schools. I think the program should apply to any school.

You took issue with your tax money going to a religious school. Well, everyone pays taxes in Louisiana one way or another. If they have kids, their money is going to educate them in public school. The voucher program simply allows them to direct their tax cut towards the school they choose. The money does come from the pool of money for education, but you shouldn't get upset by trying to track your individual tax dollars to a given childs voucher.

I can't speak for the whole of the state, but I know in my area, many who can afford to do so, do send their kids to private religion based schools, even if they are not of a specific religion, because the education is better. Most if not all of the private schools here are religion based.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
I'd bet my bottom dollar that if it was revealed that one of these schools recieving tax payer money was islamic, there would be an outcry.

Actually that has already happened.

Louisiana Legislator Upset That Education Vouchers Can Go to Muslim Schools

I don't understand her outcry outside of simply being a hypocrite.

Originally posted by cconn487
Why do adults bribe their children with stories of a fat man bringing them gifts down the chimney once every year only if they behave? If you can get a child to believe that, you can get a child to believe anything. Just because a teacher or parent tells their child something does not make it 100% fact. It is based on what they were taught. Who knows maybe they were taught wrong.

So you think any and all education for children is wrong and should all be done away with?

Nobody knows the facts on issues like this. I'm not saying I know the answers, I truly believe nobody knows a fraction of what they think they know. Myself included.

I know the facts on issues like this. That fairy tale about a god magically making everything has never been found to have any evidence or scientific backing whatsoever. That is a fact.

But so what? What is your point? Because children are gullible, they should be taught different things at different schools? I do not get your point about children being gullible here.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
Now, if the 10 Commandments hanging in the Supreme Court doesn't indicate something pretty clear, nothing possibly can.

The ten commandments are not uniquely Christian. Sorry. Murder and rape and stealing were outlawed way before Christianity showed up. Do you actually believe Christians were the first people to decide those things were wrong?

Now I am looking in the constitution and all my law books for any laws based on

Honor they mother and father
Do not take thy lord's name in vain
Honor the Sabbath
Have no other gods before me
Shall not make any graven images (court houses are full of graven images by the way)
Do not be jealous


So again, you are going to need to answer what is specifically Christian about the founding of our country.

Originally posted by sempul
But its ok to teach evolutionism even though there is NO proof and even Darwin did not believe in it?

No proof? What planet are you from?

evolution:
ev·o·lu·tion noun
1. any process of formation or growth; development: the evolution of a language; the evolution of the airplane.
2. a product of such development; something evolved: The exploration of space is the evolution of decades of research.
3. Biology . change in the gene pool of a population from generation to generation by such processes as mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift.
4. a process of gradual, peaceful, progressive change or development, as in social or economic structure or institutions.
5. a motion incomplete in itself, but combining with coordinated motions to produce a single action, as in a machine.
Dictionary.com

Can you show examples of how these definitions have no proof of concept?

What is evolution?

Evolution is technically defined as: "a gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form." As it is most famously used, "evolution" is the process by which an organism becomes more sophisticated over time and in response to its environment. The Theory of Evolution is currently the most popular concept of how life reached its current state. Evolution as a biological mechanism is driven by natural selection. This theory is favored by many scientists to explain phenomena in nature, so much so that it is generally assumed as factual in most studies.

In reality, evolution is not without controversy. Religious objections aside, in-depth analysis of evolution raises doubts that the scientific community is hard pressed to answer. Evolution has never been fundamentally proven, and most scientists admit as much. Ironically, many evolutionists defend the theory using arguments once attributed to fundamentalist Christians, such as "it just makes the most sense," and "because I choose to believe it," or "because I refuse to believe the opposite." These scientists fill in the gaps in the evolutionary model using reasonable assumptions, something for which non-evolutionists are often criticized.

Evolution has several important components: Natural Selection, Macro-evolution, and Micro-evolution. Evolution as a theory existed long before any evidence for its components was recorded. Scientific studies eventually were able to interpret data through an evolutionary viewpoint and link these core concepts into the modern theory of evolution.

source

On the Evolution & Ecology of Nature & Culture

Originally posted by AQuestion
reply to post by Southern Guardian

 

Dear Southern Guardian,

Actually no, this wasn't the point of my thread. While I believe that many of these religious schools do indoctrinate children to a certain belief (which is their purpose), my concern is whether they are doing it on my dime, whether government is promoting it. Frankly, while I disagree with this idea of sending kids to fundamentalist schools, that doesn't automatically mean I don't respect the choices of their parents. So long as it doesn't cost me, so long as government is not promoting these fundamentalists schools, I don't have a problem.

Okay, how bout you don't tax me to teach your children about religion and I don't tax you. Is that fair? No, the state says my children must be taught about evolution. You are not truthful, you wish to tax me to pay for schools that only teach what you believe. At least be honest about it, you are for determining what children are taught, children that not you own, children that you will not live with or take responsibility for. You said that it wasn't about taxes and then said that it okay as long as it didn't cost you anything, it doesn't other than taxes. You wish to tax me to teach your kids things that you believe in and don't wish to pay for me to have my kids taught what I believe in. That is hypocritical. None or all, pick. Or maybe we can avoid the subject altogether in school. Nah, I am not afraid of my children being taught evolution, are you afraid of your children being taught that some people believe there is a God?

Evolution isn't a belief, it is a FACT. Therefor your argument is invalid.



Also, for everyone else the Declaration was not written by a Christian. Jefferson was a Deist at best. His terminology of "Creator" refers to nature, not to a God.

Tax payer dollars? Don't the ones that want their kids to learn about "creationism" pay taxes also? Should the Government get to choose what is taught in schools? Liberals always have a problem with the "let live" part in "live and let live."

"Not on my dime" LOL! To late for that!

My dime pays for your grandma and grandpa to retire or whatever elderly relation you may have recieving "social" security!

My dime pays for your kids/whoever healthcare when they pull a stupid youtube stunt and get injured!

My dime pays for Democrate and Republican boondogles.

My dime pays for the first lady going on vacations! When I can't afford to take my wife on one.

My dime pays for your kids to learn how to be good "comrades" in public schools.

My dime is used against me in so many ways the thought of you fearing a kid may learn of a great spirit makes me laugh. You have so many other things you should be worried about really.

I do not really understand why, how the world came about has anything to do with education in the first place. Science I can see but "big bang" or "let there be light" How in the big scheme of things is this relevant to here and now or living?
It should be a spicial field of study in graduate school. We have kids graduating High school that can hardly read. But I'm sure know how the world came abour will be asked on a job application.
It's just another subject, part of the puppet show TPTB use to keep us devided and focused on everything BUT whats important.

A "theory" is not a fact.

A hypothese is an "educated guess" A guess, educated or not is only a guess.

A guess or a theory is not a "fact." It means you don't know. So in reality, nobody knows. Why can't both theories be taught? One guess is as good as another.

Some background...

On Aug. 21, 1980, 15,000 Christian conservatives gathered in Dallas for probably the single most important religio-political moment in modern American life. With Ronald Reagan, then the Republican nominee for president, joining a who's who list of conservative Christian leaders on the stage, the event served in many ways as the marriage ceremony between Southern Baptists and the Republican Party.

I'll bet most of the 1980 Reagan voters didn't know they would usher in a decades long reign of religious fundamentalism to America...

During his speech in Dallas, Reagan famously told the Christian leaders, "I know you can't endorse me … but I want you to know that I endorse you and what you are doing." He expressed his belief that America needed to return to God and "that old-time religion" in order to become "that shining city upon a hill." He also urged people to recognize that the Bible has the answers to all the questions and problems confronting the nation, and he endorsed the teaching of creationism in public schools.

yes, creationism, but it doesn't stop there, as the de facto state religion was gearing up to take on political power...

"From the beginning, the fundamentalist oligarchy leading the SBC takeover movement viewed the Convention as a base from which to gain political influence and exert control over secular politics. In the process, they transformed Southern Baptists from being the strongest advocates for separation of church and state in the country to being its worst opponents."

from A 'Transformative Moment' in SBC Political Activity

which all leads to...

"What is needed," Gamble continued, "is a new 'public' school system, one that is open to the public but owned and operated by the Body of Christ."

Gamble asked readers to imagine "what if" the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest Protestant denomination, opened its largely empty church buildings during the week to start thousands of Christian schools to replace America's public-education system.

"Funding is not the problem, faith is," Gamble said. "Would God honor such a grand vision for making disciples by providing every needed resource? He will!"

"Ask God to give us America's children," Gamble said. "When Jesus owns the schools, He will own the culture and the hearts of the children!"

source, a good read

and how does Mr. Gamble expect Jesus to pay for Gamble's Christian madrassas?...

Gamble said all parents should ask about financial assistance when considering a Christian school. Depending on the family income, students may also be eligible for government aid through the Florida School Choice program, often referred to as “school vouchers.”

source

and what do you do if infidels are starting to wise up to you?

To be sure, churches in the SBC represent a wide and varied spectrum of individuals and social attitudes, but the dominant force in the convention since the so-called “conservative resurgence” of 1979 has been towards turning rightward Southern Baptists as a body into a formidable electoral force. And, to the degree the Republican Party heavily depends on that white Southern base as its largest and most reliable voting bloc, the association of the SBC with Republican politics will grow stronger.

For these leaders, if heaven ain’t a lot like Dixie—with low taxes, fewer regulations, a decreased state involvement in public welfare and institutions, denial of coverage for women’s health concerns, and bitter attacks on the Obama administration launched from every available platform—then they don’t want to go. And even the city slickers running Mitt Romney’s campaigns and the rowdy friends at Ron Paul’s rallies should be able to appreciate that.

Change your name!...

Others pointed out that the name “Southern Baptist” tended to poll relatively poorly, with over forty percent of respondents associating the name with hardcore partisan political positions.

source

Too bad that this decades long religious putsch had to be fought back by atheism and anti-religion feelings. I know several good politically moderate to liberal SBC members who cannot stand where their religion strayed. Again, as we see in politics, what will save faith in this country is for religious moderates and liberals to stand up against this fundamentalism, before these extremists create more anti-religious and atheists.

And this has to be done before they create more schools, with public money, to spread their religious extremism.