Voucher schools in Louisiana include some teaching creationism

This news is afew days old, but it still caugh my eye:

Taxpayer dollars in Louisiana's new voucher program will be paying to send children to schools that teach creationism and reject evolution, promoting a religious doctrine that challenges the lessons central to public school science classrooms.

Several religious schools that will be educating taxpayer-subsidized students tout their creationist views. Some schools question whether the universe is more than a few thousand years old, openly defying reams of scientific evidence to the contrary.

www.edweek.org...

Louisiana introduced a voucher programme to promote children being sent to private schools. Some of these schools include religious schools that reject such teachings as evolution. It's not surprising that religious schools reject such theories, however the fact these schools are recieving tax payer funds is stepping over the line. Religious schools of any sort, whether they be Christian or Islamic or what have you, should not receive tax payer funds period. It is unconstitutional, why should Tax payers have to pay for schools that only serve to convert children to religious beliefs? If parents want to send their kids to religious schools, if Christian or Islamic schools want to indoctrinate young minds, let them do it on their own dime.

At the moment a lawsuit is being mounted:
www.nola.com...

I'd bet my bottom dollar that if it was revealed that one of these schools recieving tax payer money was islamic, there would be an outcry.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Dear Southern Guardian,

Louisiana introduced a voucher programme to promote children being sent to private schools. Some of these schools include religious schools that reject such teachings as evolution. It's not surprising that religious schools reject such theories, however the fact these schools are recieving tax payer funds is stepping over the line. Religious schools of any sort, whether they be Christian or Islamic or what have you, should not receive tax payer funds period. It is unconstitutional, why should Tax payers have to pay for schools that only serve to convert children to religious beliefs? If parents want to send their kids to religious schools, if Christian or Islamic schools want to indoctrinate young minds, let them do it on their own dime.

You are worried that schools receive "tax payer" money to teach kids things that you do not agree with. Okay, should you have the right to tax me to teach my children things that I do not believe? You would probably not find me to be a fundamentalist; but, that is not the issue. The issue is about taking money and forcing children to accept the state's dogma and doctrine. You worry about children being taught things that you believe are silly, okay, will you force other people's children to be taught what you think the truth is?

You can choose to have your child taught what you believe, why do you deny that to others? Are you really that much of a totalitarian? The accepted doctrine is what all children must be taught? I am pretty sure that you don't have to send your children to religious schools; but, you believe everyone should have to send their children to non-religious schools. Sort of a hypocrite aren't you?

Just so you understand, I am against teaching for or against any religion, let that parents do that and let the children choose. The government should not have the right to tell everyone what to believe and neither should you.

But its ok to teach evolutionism even though there is NO proof and even Darwin did not believe in it?

reply to post by sempul


Dear sempul,

What should the government be allowed to force everyone to agree on? Just asking.

I dont think they should and my reply in no way indicated that. Read it again. It says plainly that i am asking the OP if he thinks evolution is right when there is NO prrof behind it. I dont think that is anyones job except the parents. Kinda defeats the whole "freedom of religion" there doesnt it?

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Dear Southern Guardian,

You are online and have not responded. What is fair? What is right? Why do we accept it as right or fair, is it because it agrees with us or because we all get to choose? I believe in free will as being the most important and sometimes we must prohibit free choice, we must protect. Where you choose the line is where slavery begins, how much do you want?

As long as the Constitution starts with reference to our Creator (non-denominational) and the Super Court has the 10 Commandments, not to mention Congress opening with Religious invocation. As long as all that is true, doesn't it make sense that the kids at least understand the basics of what 'Creator' everyone is talking about?

Personally, I believe a combination of the two is the actual case and they've never been mutually exclusive in my mind. Being so touchy about it being taught at all though is as bad as the fundamentalists going ape when evolution is included. They probably ought to both be covered for kids to be taught critical thinking in making their own mind.

Until then tho... It seems silly when either side gets up in arms about the other's teachings coming up somewhere.

Originally posted by AQuestion
You are worried that schools receive "tax payer" money to teach kids things that you do not agree with. Okay, should you have the right to tax me to teach my children things that I do not believe?

No I don't believe you should have a special tax to teach your kids what you want to teach them. I do believe however that you have an obligation as an American citizen to pay taxes in general like the rest of us. If you're argument is on the basis of being "taxed" for anything then that's another topic.

Teach your kids what you feel is necessary, send them to religious schools, but not on my dime.

You worry about children being taught things that you believe are silly, okay,

Actually no, this wasn't the point of my thread. While I believe that many of these religious schools do indoctrinate children to a certain belief (which is their purpose), my concern is whether they are doing it on my dime, whether government is promoting it. Frankly, while I disagree with this idea of sending kids to fundamentalist schools, that doesn't automatically mean I don't respect the choices of their parents. So long as it doesn't cost me, so long as government is not promoting these fundamentalists schools, I don't have a problem. I hope that answers your question.

You can choose to have your child taught what you believe, why do you deny that to others?

This is a strawman argument on your end. I never stated that I believe religious schools should be banned, this was never my position, so I recommend you actually refrain from generalizing my actual position. I don't think religious schools should be funded on my dime, I don't think government should be promoting any religious institution or school. Religion is a private matter, what you wish to teach your kids is your business, don't do it on my dime, don't force it down my thoat. I hope my position is clear enough for you now.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Google religious charter schools. From what I understand tax dollars already go towards some education with a religious flavor. Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc.

I support the vouchers, btw.

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
As long as the Constitution starts with reference to our Creator (non-denominational) and the Super Court has the 10 Commandments, not to mention Congress opening with Religious invocation. As long as all that is true, doesn't it make sense that the kids at least understand the basics of what 'Creator' everyone is talking about?

So what's wrong with church or sunday schools? Why do kids require full on religious teachings in order to understand exactly what a "creator" is? I don't understand this. In anycase, if parents want to send their kids to religious schools to learn more about God or Allah, or even Joseph Smith, it's their right. Tax payers should not be forced to pay for it. Government should not be promoting any one religion.

Back in highschool I had a class that focused on religion. We learned about Christianity, Islam, Judism, we even visited a mosque. There was no harm done, it was a good class, I learned alot about other cultures, It was educational, and it was an elective class. I didn't necessarily have to attend a religious school to learn these things, and that elective class contributed very little to my overall grade in school. I had more concern for Maths and English, I didn't like physics but this was a priority as well.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Dear Wrabbit2000,

I disagree, while I believe the constitution allows people to teach about God (Robert L. Cord, an agnostic and author of "Separation of Church and State: Historical Fact and Current Fiction" which was quoted by the Supreme Court). He was a man I knew and personally respected. I do not see where we should teach such things in school which is forced upon us. I do not wish others to indoctrinate my children in or out of religion. You don't have to live with them and I do. Same for you, I don't have to live with your kids. We should allow parents to teach their children to believe or not believe, they will be trusted based on how they live their lives. False Christians will be identified by their children and hateful atheists will be identified by their children. I am good with that, let truth prevail individually.

Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by Southern Guardian

 

Google religious charter schools. From what I understand tax dollars already go towards some education with a religious flavor. Christian, Muslim, Jewish,

I understand this, I still stand by my point. The OP applied to other religious institutions, not just christian ones. Unfortunately many people are unaware that these vouchers are going to other religious schools, many assume it's only Christian ones, hence there is mostly silence on this matter. One Louisiana legislator learned that islamic schools will be funded, and she doesn't agree at all apparently:

“Unfortunately it will not be limited to the Founders’ religion,” Hodges said. “We need to insure that it does not open the door to fund radical Islam schools. There are a thousand Muslim schools that have sprung up recently. I do not support using public funds for teaching Islam anywhere here in Louisiana.”

Some legislators aren’t comfortable funding Muslim schools. What’s to be done? How about not establishing these programs in the first place? Let Muslims fund Muslim schools. Let Catholics fund Catholics ones. Let fundamentalist Protestants pay for the conservative Christian academies and so on.

www.patheos.com... im-ones/

Hodges isn’t the first Louisiana Republican to backtrack on support for the voucher program after discovering that Islamic schools would be included. Rep. Kenneth Havard (R-Jackson) has also maintained he won’t support any education spending plan that “will fund Islamic teaching.”

thinkprogress.org...

So the some of the motivations behind these voucher programmes are religious as well as political. Frankly I don't agree with any religious institution receiving tax payer money, period.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Dear Southern Guardian,

Actually no, this wasn't the point of my thread. While I believe that many of these religious schools do indoctrinate children to a certain belief (which is their purpose), my concern is whether they are doing it on my dime, whether government is promoting it. Frankly, while I disagree with this idea of sending kids to fundamentalist schools, that doesn't automatically mean I don't respect the choices of their parents. So long as it doesn't cost me, so long as government is not promoting these fundamentalists schools, I don't have a problem.

Okay, how bout you don't tax me to teach your children about religion and I don't tax you. Is that fair? No, the state says my children must be taught about evolution. You are not truthful, you wish to tax me to pay for schools that only teach what you believe. At least be honest about it, you are for determining what children are taught, children that not you own, children that you will not live with or take responsibility for. You said that it wasn't about taxes and then said that it okay as long as it didn't cost you anything, it doesn't other than taxes. You wish to tax me to teach your kids things that you believe in and don't wish to pay for me to have my kids taught what I believe in. That is hypocritical. None or all, pick. Or maybe we can avoid the subject altogether in school. Nah, I am not afraid of my children being taught evolution, are you afraid of your children being taught that some people believe there is a God?

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by Wrabbit2000
As long as the Constitution starts with reference to our Creator (non-denominational) and the Super Court has the 10 Commandments, not to mention Congress opening with Religious invocation. As long as all that is true, doesn't it make sense that the kids at least understand the basics of what 'Creator' everyone is talking about?

So what's wrong with church or sunday schools? Why do kids require full on religious teachings in order to understand exactly what a "creator" is? I don't understand this. In anycase, if parents want to send their kids to religious schools to learn more about God or Allah, or even Joseph Smith, it's their right. Tax payers should not be forced to pay for it. Government should not be promoting any one religion.

Fair enough on that. I'll say that in a world where public schools were effective and teaching the children to even the level I was taught to in grade school in the late 70's, I don't think this issue would likely exist at all. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the whole issue of Vouchers and Charter schools has come about as a result of public schools failing or at least scoring so low, this is what some have come to see as one of the solutions.

I personally don't care for religion being mixed to any degree with public education, but....if that school is what is keeping our kids out of illiteracy while the public schools are failing, my anger is to the District and fixing the public system. It isn't toward those who are stepping up to fill the gap. Lets get the public schools fixed..in whatever way is going to work....so this won't be an issue at all in the future. Just my thought...

*It's important to clarify ^^ The basic covering of creationism as a belief held across our society, and not advocating it or giving more than a chapter to it, perhaps...seems only appropriate for the reasons in my last post. NO mention, is excluding a major piece of what is seen all over society

reply to post by Southern Guardian


I don't the government would be endorsing any specific religion though. A Muslim student could use their voucher to attend an Islamic school just the same.

It could also create healthy competition to clean up inner city schools.

Not to mention vouchers can save money for the states in the long run. Let's say a state pays $12000 per student to attend public school. Then there is a private school that only charges $7000 a year in tuition. The parent uses the voucher for private school and the state saves $5000.

Lots of benefits to it IMHO.

reply to post by AQuestion

I generally agree with you here. I just went through the whole thing on Captive Audience and sure learned plenty on this in writing 6 Super Court case briefs in my Am-Hist course for the final project. Ugh.... Talk about 'Welcome to College level work'. lol... So I actually am agreeing with the legal principles involved, not just the feel good concept of keeping religion out of public school, as a rule.

On the other hand, it's gotten absurd. To exclude creationism entirely is to deny what is all over the American founding documents and papers throughout our nation's history. It's not about going further, but explaining that much in a fair and honest way seems appropriate.

BTW... I'm certainly not bigoted.. I wouldn't mind my son learning about the Jewish OR Islamic Faith in school, in a general way.....If those lessons fit into a context of history or similar line. The very subjects in any context seem to be taboo now, which is just overboard and then some, IMO.

At least it lets children come to their own conclusions rather than evolving from monkeys. The human body may have evolved in some way from apes, but whatever makes a person an individual is still unanswered.

Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by Southern Guardian

 

I don't the government would be endorsing any specific religion though.

Whether they aren't officially doing it, religion should be a private matter. No religious institution should be receiving tax payer money or funding, this isn't the purpose of government, surely you should understand this.

It could also create healthy competition to clean up inner city schools.

I wouldn't compare religious schools to public schools, the two are in different worlds in my opinion. Parents send their kids to these religious schools for personal reasons, for religious reasons, rarely are they sent to these schools because public schools fail to "educate".

I actually don't have a problem with private schools receiving government support provided that they are not religiously motivated. In this case I do see competitition that may be beneficial, but then again I doubt there was ever a question of whether private schools performed better than public schools. Cost was always a factor to all of this, cost is the number one issue for many parents when it comes educating their kids. If private schools (non-religious ones) were affordable, most parents would choose private schools, hands down. It is similar to healthcare, private healthcare offers more benefits, but it's the cost that factors in to the choices of many people.

Not to mention vouchers can save money for the states in the long run.

I'm very skeptical of this entire voucher programme in Louisiana, but I do believe it is worth a try to see whether it is a workable system, so more power to Louisiana. However if we're funding religious schools in the process, then you're asking people like myself to pay into to religious beliefs, which I believe is unconstitutional.

Originally posted by cconn487
At least it lets children come to their own conclusions rather than evolving from monkeys.

Evolution is an accepted scientific theory, creationism (Intelligent design) is not. Regardless, if parents don't want their kids to learn about scientific theories, if parents want kids to learn about Christianity and how the Earth was made in 6 days by God or Allah, more power to them, they dictate what's best for their own children, just don't do it on my dime. I'm not interested at all in having my tax payer money fund your religious beliefs.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
One Louisiana legislator learned that islamic schools will be funded, and she doesn't agree at all apparently:

Had that been the headline,
This would be a very different thread.