Originally posted by Jazzerman
Thanks for the heads up...I have actually handled the original MJ-12 documents so I hope they come up with some new information on them. Many of the other archivists that I knew were split over if the documents were real or not...half said they thought they were authentic, and half said they were not. Should be an interesting show nonetheless!!!

How in the world could you of handled the original MJ-12 documents when Stanton Friedman himself hasn't ? lol

Originally posted by Valhall

curme? They DID. I watched as well, and they spent quite a few minutes on that.

Ok, I missed a little bit of the beginning. Thanks!

Originally posted by XPhiles

Originally posted by Jazzerman
Thanks for the heads up...I have actually handled the original MJ-12 documents so I hope they come up with some new information on them. Many of the other archivists that I knew were split over if the documents were real or not...half said they thought they were authentic, and half said they were not. Should be an interesting show nonetheless!!!

How in the world could you of handled the original MJ-12 documents when Stanton Friedman himself hasn't ? lol

Good question. When I worked (interned more like it) for the Eisenhower Presidential Library I simply went up to the Archivists and asked to see the documents. They brought out 4-5 indexed boxes for me to look through and told me to wear the appropriated acid-free cotton gloves when handling the documents. When I got to the MJ-12 documents I asked a couple of them to come over (they were friends) and explain what they thought about them. From what they told me, they were the original documents printed with the old style purple ink on a sort of almost transparent (or at least very thin) paper. We discussed them for quite awhile, and then I looked over hundreds of other documents they had pertaining to anything "UFO" related...literally hundreds!

Anyhow...I said they were the "original" documents because that is what the Archivists told me during my time there. I would suggest going there (my home town) and ask to see the documents for yourself. From what I understand, unless you request the real documents, all they will give you are photocopies of the originals, which is exactly what they gave a couple of my friends that have visited there as well.

Of course many of the "other" documents I looked over were covered in black ink and completely illegible to both the Archivists and myself! Hope this answer helps...????

"covered in black ink and completely illegible" I love when they do that on UFO related documents they black out whole pages. Sure they are not hiding anything

Jazzerman, you do realize that no one has claimed to actually see the original documents, right?

The story is centered around a person receiving negatives of the documents.

I'm not saying that you are lying, but I hope you know how big of a can of worms you have just opened up. Good Luck.

its on again at 2 AM eastern time

Maybe Dr. Michael Wolf was right when he said that the government uses programs like TLC and the Discovery channel to desensitize people and to test how people will repsond to information.

It was a good program overall with Friedman and Richard Dolan(the author of UFOs and The National Security State)at the helm.I see they gave the usual debunkment crew their time as well,and they wasted little time with the usual idiotic,"little green men" comments.Joe Nickell is one of those morons who basically tries to debunk EVERYTHING paranormal,including ghosts,psychic phenomenon,and anything out of the easily explainable norms of scientific understanding.All in all though,I felt the documentary at least helped to raise a few eyebrows of the average person who may straddle the fence of where they sit on the issue.Hopefully they'll produce some more docs like this.

[edit on 11-10-2004 by 11thdimension]

Originally posted by Jazzerman

Originally posted by XPhiles

Originally posted by Jazzerman
Thanks for the heads up...I have actually handled the original MJ-12 documents so I hope they come up with some new information on them. Many of the other archivists that I knew were split over if the documents were real or not...half said they thought they were authentic, and half said they were not. Should be an interesting show nonetheless!!!

How in the world could you of handled the original MJ-12 documents when Stanton Friedman himself hasn't ? lol

Good question. When I worked (interned more like it) for the Eisenhower Presidential Library I simply went up to the Archivists and asked to see the documents. They brought out 4-5 indexed boxes for me to look through and told me to wear the appropriated acid-free cotton gloves when handling the documents. When I got to the MJ-12 documents I asked a couple of them to come over (they were friends) and explain what they thought about them. From what they told me, they were the original documents printed with the old style purple ink on a sort of almost transparent (or at least very thin) paper. We discussed them for quite awhile, and then I looked over hundreds of other documents they had pertaining to anything "UFO" related...literally hundreds!

Anyhow...I said they were the "original" documents because that is what the Archivists told me during my time there. I would suggest going there (my home town) and ask to see the documents for yourself. From what I understand, unless you request the real documents, all they will give you are photocopies of the originals, which is exactly what they gave a couple of my friends that have visited there as well.

Of course many of the "other" documents I looked over were covered in black ink and completely illegible to both the Archivists and myself! Hope this answer helps...????

So you are saying the actual real MJ-12 documents are in Abilene, Kansas?

Originally posted by Jazzerman
Good question. When I worked (interned more like it) for the Eisenhower Presidential Library I simply went up to the Archivists and asked to see the documents. They brought out 4-5 indexed boxes for me to look through and told me to wear the appropriated acid-free cotton gloves when handling the documents. When I got to the MJ-12 documents I asked a couple of them to come over (they were friends) and explain what they thought about them. From what they told me, they were the original documents printed with the old style purple ink on a sort of almost transparent (or at least very thin) paper. We discussed them for quite awhile, and then I looked over hundreds of other documents they had pertaining to anything "UFO" related...literally hundreds!

Anyhow...I said they were the "original" documents because that is what the Archivists told me during my time there. I would suggest going there (my home town) and ask to see the documents for yourself. From what I understand, unless you request the real documents, all they will give you are photocopies of the originals, which is exactly what they gave a couple of my friends that have visited there as well.

Of course many of the "other" documents I looked over were covered in black ink and completely illegible to both the Archivists and myself! Hope this answer helps...????

Jazzerman??? You serious? Its like someone said on this thread...you just opened up one big can of worms. So talk to us...we'd like to know more. Its hard to believe that the government would declassify these documents, even if these documents had that black out ink on them becuase that would confirm the existence of such a group and of E.T. If it said Magestic 12 at the bottom, MAJIC EYES ONLY or something like that and it looks exactly like the photocopied documents then thats good enough to believe that the mj 12 documents and the photocopied ones are both real.

But once again you do realize, if what you say is true, that would be like the government literally confirming the existence of mj 12 and E.T. Those documents were supposed to be "faked" according to skeptics and there not even supposed to exist, especially in the national archives. So for those documents to be in the national archives is a big leap of confirmation. You sure those were the MJ 12 documents you saw? lol

[edit on 11-10-2004 by kyateLaBoca]

kyateLaBoca...and others...

You all may very well be right for all I know. I am no expert in this type of stuff yet. Even many of the archivists thought they were fake, and for all I know they probably are. All I know is that if you go to the Presidential Library and request to see the MJ-12 they will let you, now, whether they are real or not is up to you to decide. I saw the documents so long ago, I may be mistaken about seeing the "original" documents as well? I must admit that...

I'm sorry if I seemed to have "opened a can of worms" because that was not my intention. What I do suggest is just going to the Library yourself someday and asking for the documents, and asking if they do have the Originals? I remember seeing many de-classified documents, many of which were originals, and some that were copies. I'm beginning to think I only saw copies of MJ-12 if others have not seen the originals, which sounds like a more plausible situation.

I would say that most of you are correct...that it was not the "original" documents that I saw, especially if someone like Stanton Friedman has not seen them. However, maybe someday I will go back to the library and ask to see them again just to be certain.

What I do suggest is just going to the Library yourself someday and asking for the documents, and asking if they do have the Originals? I remember seeing many de-classified documents, many of which were originals, and some that were copies.

It would seem an easy enough task to complete.

I would say that most of you are correct...that it was not the "original" documents that I saw, especially if someone like Stanton Friedman has not seen them.

Geez...don't sell yourself short dude, he's just a fella like the rest of us fellas and fellaresses.

[edit on 11-10-2004 by Zero Point]

Originally posted by kyateLaBoca
But once again you do realize, if what you say is true, that would be like the government literally confirming the existence of mj 12 and E.T. Those documents were supposed to be "faked" according to skeptics and there not even supposed to exist, especially in the national archives. So for those documents to be in the national archives is a big leap of confirmation. You sure those were the MJ 12 documents you saw? lol
[edit on 11-10-2004 by kyateLaBoca]

I agree, it probably was, like I stated before just photocopies, but my memory does not serve me correctly right now. After seeing so many documents maybe I am just mixing up which ones were copies and which ones were real.

Sorry to get everyone so worked up, as I did not intend to do that.

I suggest going there and asking for all de-classified documents on the UFO topic or something and seeing what they give you. Its better that way so that you can see for yourself...either that...or just give them a call on the phone?

I think we have all heard the phrase the best place to hide something is right out in the open.
We know when it comes to just about anything people have there own opinions some agree some don't this is just the way we are.
With the men in Magic 12 dead now I think it would be interesting to find out if there are 12 new replacements and who they are just a thought

Originally posted by Jazzerman

Originally posted by kyateLaBoca
But once again you do realize, if what you say is true, that would be like the government literally confirming the existence of mj 12 and E.T. Those documents were supposed to be "faked" according to skeptics and there not even supposed to exist, especially in the national archives. So for those documents to be in the national archives is a big leap of confirmation. You sure those were the MJ 12 documents you saw? lol
[edit on 11-10-2004 by kyateLaBoca]

I agree, it probably was, like I stated before just photocopies, but my memory does not serve me correctly right now. After seeing so many documents maybe I am just mixing up which ones were copies and which ones were real.

Sorry to get everyone so worked up, as I did not intend to do that.

I suggest going there and asking for all de-classified documents on the UFO topic or something and seeing what they give you. Its better that way so that you can see for yourself...either that...or just give them a call on the phone?

Thanks for the info jazzerman, but I have another question for you....Even if they were fake documents or copies, doesnt the notion of them existing in the national archives make them real enough? I dont know too much about these archive places but I would imagine that it would be hard for someone to just come in and plant a fake right??? Could I be wrong? The reason I say this is becuase, lets say if someone did plant a fake in, 1st of all that file wouldnt show up in the computer, so it would cause the archivest to speculate about it. Then that could lead to the dispossal of the document. But again you worked there, so you would know more regarding how easy it would be to sneak in documents.

And when I said you opening up can of worms, dont worry about it I was only saying that in a sense that you could open up a revelation if those documents were the originals. And like I said before, if it is hard for hoaxers to sneak in false documents, and even if these documents are just photocopies, that would still be a big revelation.

[edit on 11-10-2004 by kyateLaBoca]

kyateLaBoca...excellent thoughts. I guess I never thought about the significance of them "just being there" in the first place.

To answer some questions...Presidental archives are a collection of everything a certain president signed, wrote, etc. It includes all known photographs and pictures of that president. In fact, if someone wants to use say, a picture of Eisenhower in a book, film, etc. then they have to get the permission from NARA first. I interned in the Audio-Visual Department of the Eisenhower Presidential Library moving all color photographs and preserving them to be put into a cold-storage unit. Anyway, that is quite irrelevant to the discussion; so back on topic...

As far as MJ-12, it would be relevant to have it at the Library since it is about Eisenhower, and under his administration. However, saying that, most all historical books ever written about Eisenhower are stored there as well. Its a giant repository of knowledge about everything "Eisenhower" for lack of better words. I just wish I could remember if it was the "original" documents or not??? I just really don't know now.

I will be headed home during Christmas, and I will go back to the Archives and see what I can find...then give you a definitive answer. I suggest that others check this out as well, it will be well worth it...even if just for the other documents on UFO's that accompany MJ-12.

The first time I went to ask for MJ-12 way back in High School with one of my friends we were handed that famous "copy" of it. Later, when I interned there they brought out, like I said before, 4-5 boxes of UFO related information. You can make of it what you want, but I would highly suggest that one, if not a couple of you go there and check it out for yourselves....AND TELL THEM YOU WANT TO SEE IT ALL....not just photocopies.

kyate or anyone...I have one question for you as well. Where is everyone else getting their copies of MJ-12 from? The only source I have ever known of where to find the documents is the Eisenhower Presidential Library. Are there other places you can find these documents as well? I guess I thought everyone knew they were stored at said Presidential Library.

[edit on 11-10-2004 by Jazzerman]

kyate...good luck on your "quest", and I'm glad I could help you out (if I actually did?). If you need anymore help with the Eisenhower Library; such as names of contact archivists, etc. I will give you all the help you need. I guarantee that they do have at the very least "copies" of the MJ-12, if not the originals as well.

Be persistent when you are talking to them, and remember to ask them for their opinion on the documents. They are very knowledgeable, and know most of those documents word for word...so you can get a scientific opinion first before you devise your own opinions.

PS- If they end up sending the documents to you it will more than likely cost a bit of money. If I remember correctly, at least with photogaraphs, it cost like $10.00 - $20.00 for just a photograph. Copies of documents will cost less, but if you want the MJ-12 without actually traveling there; be prepared to pay a little. Just a heads up.

If you ever make it to the actual Library, ask to see ALL the documents...you will literally be there for days looking through all of them! Good luck, and keep us all informed!