World leaders promoting tolerance; but what do you really know about Islam?

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


I agree with you completely.

And as I've stated here on this thread is my personal experience with Muslims has been a negative one. I've always kept an open mind towards Muslims but it has been proven to me on many occasions that there is a huge cultural divide between the indigenous people of my country and Muslim immigrants. A divide that will never be bridged in my opinion, and every single Muslim I have spoken to views my country and our way of life with disdain(I live in Europe). That is the truth. I can't put it any other way, I wish it wasn't so. the Muslim people I worked with would not try to integrate or participate socially with me and our colleagues, and they repeatedly mentioned violent acts when speaking of solving religious differences. I have seen and objected to intolerance directed at Muslim people in my country, I don't like it, and it usually comes from ignorant bigots. But I've never heard any catholics(the main faith here) ever speaking negatively about Islam, it's always the other way round.

I have tried to look beyond the religious aspect of a person when dealing with them one to one, but again in my personal experience, the Muslim people I've dealt with seemed to not allow that, their religious beliefs were always referenced and I was constantly reminded of our differences, which was frustrating at times.

And, sadly, that is my personal experience.

reply to post by seabhac-rua


Fair enough. If that is your experience, then you have every reason to be cautious.

Just don't allow that caution to preclude the possibility that the next experience may end up being more positive.

It is hard to bridge a cultural divide. I work in hospitality, and have had to learn to work with Indian (dot, not feather) ownership. It is a VERY different culture. I do best with the Indian folks who try to meet me halfway. If they at least don't try to bring that whole caste thing into our relationship, things generally go well. I draw the line at being thought of as "less than" someone else because of some caste system.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


I work with Indian people too.

I really find it hard not to build prejudice towards people, and I try my best not to.

I know some Muslim people well enough to call friends, and I like them, and I think they like me, but there are certain 'no no's' that you can't mention and I always have to be careful when dealing with them, and try not to offend. This gets tiresome at times, and of all the different people, culturally, I deal with I do not have this problem with anybody else.

Originally posted by Grambler

Originally posted by My.mind.is.mine

We in the west would call murder reprehensible for such a thing but again, that's them. That's what they do, over there. Islam doesn't call for the death sentence for apostasy, their culture does. The goggles that most people in the west see Islam through are either the goggles of the media (if ur not muslim) or the goggles of a foreigner (if ur a convert to Islam or a second or third generation western muslim). People are too lazy to sift through it.

Fair enough. I guess Im guilty of looking trhough the lens of a foreigner.

I again admit I haven't read the Qu'ran (which is something I intend to do), and you apparently have. But I almost guarentee that like almost all religious texts of antiquity, ther are many ways to intepret it. Therefore you have your opinion on what its says, but thats not the end all be all because its your interpretation.

I bet if I asked someone who does advocate the death sentence for apostasy, they would say the Qu'ran justifies it. Because of this, I don't think the culture argument matters much.

If the text is vague enough to allow huge amount of its follwers to advocate this, then I feel justified in criticizing it.

Their culture, is theirs, and whether I agree with it or not I will respect it, simply off the basis of it being another's culture. I will not however indulge.

Ok but heres the problem. Youre in a paradox. Their culture calls for the death of anyone who criticzes them in a certain way, my culture celbrates free speech. By respecting their culture, you disrespect mine.

Its like the old saying, the right to swing your fist stops where my nose begins. In other words, I respect your beliefs up to the point where those beliefs call for the restriction of other peoples beliefs.

What if a culture calls for the death of people of a certain color, do you respect that?

The other point is with so many people of the Islamic faith in the west claiming we should respect their culture, why are they so unwilling to respect ours in such a small way of, "Please dont kill people for excercising free speech". Its give and take, and on this issue, there seems to be no give.

Peace,

If you asked somebody who supported the death penalty for apostasy, they would quite a hadith, which is largely based off of arab culture, as the Prophet was still an arab man, despite achieving prophethood.

Even wikipedia acknowledges it's not in the doctrine. (keeping in mind wikipedia isn't a source, but a starting point for research)

The Qur'an itself does not prescribe any earthly punishment for apostasy; Islamic scholarship differs on its punishment, ranging from execution – based on an interpretation of certain hadiths – to no punishment at all as long as they "do not work against the Muslim society or nation."

link

And I don't agree that I'm in any paradox. I'm a black man so my culture is American culture. I respect my culture, and acknowledge its flaws. But I also acknowledge that me calling it a flaw is based solely off of my perception. Likewise I respect theirs, and acknowledge its flaws, and the fact that again that's based off of OUR perception as citizens of the west.

Their rights go to the end of the earth as far as I'm concerned, as that's their land. If they bring that over this way, they'd run into a problem not only with western non muslims, but western muslims, and I can guarantee that. The number of muslims waking up and separating culture from faith has been growing lately.

Calling for the death of somebody of a certain color is totally different from this issue. And I never said I respect the custom, I simply said I respect their CULTURE in GENERAL, and its difference, don't confuse my point.

On your last point, how many people have been killed for apostasy, or expressing free speech in the west? If there are examples, I guarantee they are victims of a culture that I'm probably not a fan of, and I feel for them.

reply to post by FlyInTheOintment


And there is it, the promise of "putting out the evidence soon." The only evidence can and should be from the Quran and authentic hadiths. Anything else we can dismiss as Muslims engaging in cultural practices and labelling them Islam with no evidence to support their actions which happens often. Again, for the millionth time, you cannot sentence an entire faith because of the actions of some of its adherents, especially when those adherents' actions go against what the faith teaches.

So, I'm forcing your hand and calling your bluff. I don't think this evidence is ever going to surface. Why haven't you posted it anywhere on these 19 pages of comments? Why is it always the promise of a future reveal?

reply to post by seabhac-rua


Well personal experience is one thing and it truly stinks that the Muslims you haven encountered haven't been warm and cordial and friendly towards you. Still you cannot use that personal experience to claim that all Muslims are this way or that Islam teaches Muslims to be this way.

The use of "personal experience" is a logical fallacy known as an appeal to belief fallacy in terms of debate. Basically because personal experience is not verifiable evidence of someone's claim. And this is not to say that you are lying. It's just that in a discussion/debate one has to err on the side of caution when considering claims that one is trying to prove. If it's evidence enough for you then I guess that's fine. But for other people, especially those well-versed in logic and its fallacies, it just doesn't work. I could easily say that most Christians or atheists (or what if we inserted an ethnicity like White people) I have met have treated me like crap. Would that be fair to then believe that all Christians, atheists, etc. are that way? No.

Originally posted by seabhac-rua

Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786
reply to post by seabhac-rua

 

Well you can't judge all Muslims by what some young punks say and just because you haven't heard Christians say stuff like this doesn't mean that they don't. You are basically merely going by what you've personally experienced. I could tell you that I've heard Christians and atheists make violent suggestions about people of other faiths.

True.

I am going by my personal experience, what else am I supposed to do?

I'll tell you another thing, I worked with a Muslim man and we became good friends, we used to talk about our different philosophies a lot, good conversations a some funny times, he told me himself that he was unused to talking candidly about religious matters and where he was from I would 'probably get killed' for espousing my views about religion in public.

Again, my personal experience, and again I live in a hardcore catholic country, and never once have I heard anybody make any comments like that, either Christians or atheists, I mean who do atheists, as a group, hate?

edit on 27-7-2012 by seabhac-rua because: (no reason given)

I am just trying to point out here that you are not being honest in your last post. Here in your own words you speak of cultivating a friendship with this Muslim man. Now will you hold this man accountable for the actions of others?

Originally posted by TRGreer

Originally posted by seabhac-rua

Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786
reply to post by seabhac-rua

 

Well you can't judge all Muslims by what some young punks say and just because you haven't heard Christians say stuff like this doesn't mean that they don't. You are basically merely going by what you've personally experienced. I could tell you that I've heard Christians and atheists make violent suggestions about people of other faiths.

True.

I am going by my personal experience, what else am I supposed to do?

I'll tell you another thing, I worked with a Muslim man and we became good friends, we used to talk about our different philosophies a lot, good conversations a some funny times, he told me himself that he was unused to talking candidly about religious matters and where he was from I would 'probably get killed' for espousing my views about religion in public.

Again, my personal experience, and again I live in a hardcore catholic country, and never once have I heard anybody make any comments like that, either Christians or atheists, I mean who do atheists, as a group, hate?

edit on 27-7-2012 by seabhac-rua because: (no reason given)

I am just trying to point out here that you are not being honest in your last post. Here in your own words you speak of cultivating a friendship with this Muslim man. Now will you hold this man accountable for the actions of others?

How am I not being honest?

And no, I do not hold him accountable for the actions of anyone other than himself, nor have I stated so.

All I am doing is relating my personal experiences.

Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786
reply to post by seabhac-rua

 

Well personal experience is one thing and it truly stinks that the Muslims you haven encountered haven't been warm and cordial and friendly towards you. Still you cannot use that personal experience to claim that all Muslims are this way or that Islam teaches Muslims to be this way.

Of course, you are right, and I agree with you.

Most of the Muslim people I know, or have met are/were nice and warm people. I am just relating things that have been said to me, or things I have overheard Muslims saying.

Believe me, I in no way have a problem with Muslims, yet I cannot ignore what I have witnessed.
And, when I compare people of different faiths, which is not really a good thing but it's hard not to, I see that I have only heard Muslim people speaking negatively about other faiths or creeds, sometimes shockingly so.

Do I brand all Muslims as this or that, no. But one thing I've learned is Muslims, as a religious group, are the only people I have to be careful not to offend in my daily dealings with them.

Originally posted by FlyInTheOintment
reply to post by Grambler

 

Thank you for continuing to ask the right questions. I know you probably don't agree with my hard-fisted approach to exposing the inverse morality of the Koran, but I appreciate that you are genuinely seeking to understand why violence is such a widespread proclivity among Muslims across the globe.


Something I forgot to mention. I find it frustrating that when I criticise the actual doctrine of Islam, which leads people to do horrific things to other people, I see that some people on ATS are more concerned about non-related concepts such as 'who wrote the bulk of the New Testament'. Utterly irrelevant deflection, which fails to even understand the purpose of what I've written.

What matters is not so much 'who wrote it?', as 'what behaviour does the application of the doctrine/instruction produce in its followers?'

The application of Christian doctrine as found in the New Testament should lead to peaceable, friendly and charitable people, who support each other and are good to those around them. The fact that this doesn't always happen is a demonstration of the true nature of Humanity - we are flawed, and are in need of grace, forgiveness etc. This is not an excuse for the bad behaviour of Christians, but a simple fact. Yes, we are called to forgive those who offend us, but CRUCIALLY we are also called to challenge each other to live a life worthy of the calling of Christ. We are not permitted to lie, under any circumstances, and corporate violence against others is limited to 'last-ditch self-defence', where the preservation of freedom and protection of innocents is the paramount concern.

The truthful, loving and charitable nature of a true Christian lifestyle is clearly not evident as the result of the strict application of the doctrine of Islam, which permits any use of force or guile if it advances the cause of Islam. In several places in the Koran the followers are told to wage war against unbelievers, and I'm sorry, but anyone who claims this isn't the case is wearing Rose-Tinted Islamic Specs.

So you follow the new testament? Must be nice to throw out parts of your holy scripture when they become to archaic or inconvenient to justify. Guess that means you no longer follow the 10 commandments? Can you show me where Jesus ever said to defend freedom or the innocent? I remember something about caring for widows and orphans but caring for and physically defending someone or something are to very different things in my opinion. From my understanding he taught a concept called turn the other cheek.

Originally posted by seabhac-rua

Originally posted by TRGreer

Originally posted by seabhac-rua

Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786
reply to post by seabhac-rua

 

Well you can't judge all Muslims by what some young punks say and just because you haven't heard Christians say stuff like this doesn't mean that they don't. You are basically merely going by what you've personally experienced. I could tell you that I've heard Christians and atheists make violent suggestions about people of other faiths.

True.

I am going by my personal experience, what else am I supposed to do?

I'll tell you another thing, I worked with a Muslim man and we became good friends, we used to talk about our different philosophies a lot, good conversations a some funny times, he told me himself that he was unused to talking candidly about religious matters and where he was from I would 'probably get killed' for espousing my views about religion in public.

Again, my personal experience, and again I live in a hardcore catholic country, and never once have I heard anybody make any comments like that, either Christians or atheists, I mean who do atheists, as a group, hate?

edit on 27-7-2012 by seabhac-rua because: (no reason given)

I am just trying to point out here that you are not being honest in your last post. Here in your own words you speak of cultivating a friendship with this Muslim man. Now will you hold this man accountable for the actions of others?

How am I not being honest?

And no, I do not hold him accountable for the actions of anyone other than himself, nor have I stated so.

All I am doing is relating my personal experiences.

And as I've stated here on this thread is my personal experience with Muslims has been a negative one. I've always kept an open mind towards Muslims but it has been proven to me on many occasions that there is a huge cultural divide between the indigenous people of my country and Muslim immigrants. A divide that will never be bridged in my opinion, and every single Muslim I have spoken to views my country and our way of life with disdain(I live in Europe).

Here you talk of never being able to bridge a gap. Its impossible according to you.

I'll tell you another thing, I worked with a Muslim man and we became good friends, we used to talk about our different philosophies a lot, good conversations a some funny times, he told me himself that he was unused to talking candidly about religious matters and where he was from I would 'probably get killed' for espousing my views about religion in public.

Here in this previous post you have done the impossible! You have bridged the gap.

reply to post by seabhac-rua


Fair enough. But I also want to address an older post yours where you said, "Who do atheists as a group hate?"

Well for one in order to answer that question it would require condemning all atheists for the actions of some atheist extremists. To do so would be hypocritical.

Now, that being said, there are a lot of atheists, whom I am referring to when I mentioned "atheist extremists," who hate ALL religion. That's the group they hate: believers. Go anywhere on the internet where atheists frequent (check out atheism and atheist pages on Facebook. Look at the venom and mockery they spew at religion and religious people).

reply to post by TRGreer


There is a gap, even though I am friends with this man there will always be a gap between us on certain levels.
I have visited his home, but he will not visit mine, I have invited him to social events but he refuses to go because there will be people drinking alcohol. I respect his choices but he sees himself as different to me, and that's just the way it is. We do get on very well though.

Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786
reply to post by seabhac-rua

 

Fair enough. But I also want to address an older post yours where you said, "Who do atheists as a group hate?"

Well for one in order to answer that question it would require condemning all atheists for the actions of some atheist extremists. To do so would be hypocritical.

Now, that being said, there are a lot of atheists, whom I am referring to when I mentioned "atheist extremists," who hate ALL religion. That's the group they hate: believers. Go anywhere on the internet where atheists frequent (check out atheism and atheist pages on Facebook. Look at the venom and mockery they spew at religion and religious people).

I understand what you mean.

Yes a lot of atheists do view religious people with disdain. I guess I've never met any "atheist extremists."

The young Muslim men I overheard in the restaurant were educated and intelligent, and it just left a bad feeling with me, for a brief moment I actually felt afraid for my friends who are atheists, I have never had that feeling before. It has changed my view of Islam, and I try not to let it but it has.

reply to post by seabhac-rua


Respecting a friends beliefs is hardly what I would call a gap. Another reason as to why he may be cautious to do more with you is fear. Look at this thread. Ask yourself if you wouldn't be a little fearful considering how most people feel about Islam.

Originally posted by TRGreer
reply to post by seabhac-rua

 

Respecting a friends beliefs is hardly what I would call a gap. Another reason as to why he may be cautious to do more with you is fear. Look at this thread. Ask yourself if you wouldn't be a little fearful considering how most people feel about Islam.

Yeah, it's true that sometimes I think he's just afraid. I guess I'll just try harder.

Originally posted by seabhac-rua

Originally posted by TRGreer
reply to post by seabhac-rua

 

Respecting a friends beliefs is hardly what I would call a gap. Another reason as to why he may be cautious to do more with you is fear. Look at this thread. Ask yourself if you wouldn't be a little fearful considering how most people feel about Islam.

Yeah, it's true that sometimes I think he's just afraid. I guess I'll just try harder.

I think you had it all along. Take people as individuals and avoid making blanket statements and judgements.

Originally posted by CoolerAbdullah786
reply to post by seabhac-rua

 

Well personal experience is one thing and it truly stinks that the Muslims you haven encountered haven't been warm and cordial and friendly towards you. Still you cannot use that personal experience to claim that all Muslims are this way or that Islam teaches Muslims to be this way.

The use of "personal experience" is a logical fallacy known as an appeal to belief fallacy in terms of debate. Basically because personal experience is not verifiable evidence of someone's claim. And this is not to say that you are lying. It's just that in a discussion/debate one has to err on the side of caution when considering claims that one is trying to prove. If it's evidence enough for you then I guess that's fine. But for other people, especially those well-versed in logic and its fallacies, it just doesn't work. I could easily say that most Christians or atheists (or what if we inserted an ethnicity like White people) I have met have treated me like crap. Would that be fair to then believe that all Christians, atheists, etc. are that way? No.

I would like to take a moment to point out that there is a vast difference between the realm of debate and the realm of reality. Matters of race, religion, etc, should never be matters that are debated unless the only intention is to dispel myth.

People generally tend to allow personal experience to dictate how they approach the world. For example, when I reach for that pan on the stove, I know it will be hot from personal experience. This is hard wired into us. Thus, if we find that we usually have a difficult time with a certain demographic, it is a very natural reaction to be cautious. Would you tend to walk comfortably into a situation as a white businessman in a suit, going into a group of black men all wearing red in Compton? Nope...and you would be a fool to take on that risk based on not only your own personal experience, but the experience of others.

And this even goes down to personal appearance If you really loathe an individual, when you meet someone that looks similar to them in the future, you will have to overcome some of that prejudice from your prior experience. It is a hard wired reaction.

Now, this does not excuse the reaction. Similarly, we have sexual urges. We are expected, as humans, to overcome those hard wired, animalistic and instictive type of things. It is what separates us from primates....the ability to control urges, to become something more than mere animal.

So, what we have to strive for is a condition where we can maintain our human caution, as it is purely a survival mechanism. At the same time, as intellectual beings, we have to make sure that logic and reason are able to overcome these base urges.

Islam is a good example of why immigration should be retrictred.

I don't want to live in a community with people who think women should be treated as inferior, and the woman as being the guilty party when she is raped by a man. I don't want to be neighbors with a man who teaches his sons that my daughter is a slut because she doesn't dress the way he thinks she should dress.

I am not the one being unreasonable.

I am offended by people who think they have the right to push their wacked out religious beliefs on me.

Originally posted by poet1b
Islam is a good example of why immigration should be retrictred.

I don't want to live in a community with people who think women should be treated as inferior, and the woman as being the guilty party when she is raped by a man. I don't want to be neighbors with a man who teaches his sons that my daughter is a slut because she doesn't dress the way he thinks she should dress.

I am not the one being unreasonable.

I am offended by people who think they have the right to push their wacked out religious beliefs on me.

Yes, it is unfortunate that you have to share your planet with a diverse population. If only everyone was just like you.....



Ya know, when i see what is referred to as "a traditional" hispanic man, and the way he treats his wife, it sickens me. I used to run a 400 seat call center. If a female employee had to be contacted, I had to find a female manager to do it. Why? Because on several occasions I have had a female employee get beat up by her man because i, another male, had called her at home.

If you think that Muslims have the market cornered on abusing women, you haven't watched Cops on Saturday nights. All races, all religions, all cultures have their own misogynistic tendencies.