Should Americans have the right to know if they are on a no fly list?

There are no links or videos for this thread. If anything I would like to hear some opinions on the matter. I don't necessarily have a strong opinion one way or another, it's just a point of contention I've been debating with myself in my head for a while now. I want to keep this OP basic to an extent. I'm not going to cite sources, case law, or anything of the sort intentionally. I think we over complicate simple matters at times, and then miss what is truly right and wrong in the process.On one hand you have security concerns as far as possible enemy combatants. The last thing you would want to do is advertise to hostile individuals that you view them as possible future enemies. This could actually cause backlash, not only from genuine enemies, but from average citizens angered at the fact that they are viewed as such by authorities in their own country in which any opposition they may have is purely peaceful. On the other hand. Do these types of lists extend beyond transportation? Could these types of lists actually lend way to social and professional levels as well? Could individuals be denied employment, educational opportunities, and possible social assistance such as federal grants and loans because of being named as a possible enemy of the state? Should citizens have a right to know that they could be victimized in the future, therefor not given an opportunity to properly take measures protect their own well being?

It'd be nice to know before you went ahead and bought a $700 plane ticket.

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
It'd be nice to know before you went ahead and bought a $700 plane ticket.

That is a good point. I have heard stories of individuals not only being denied to fly, but also being denied a refund on their purchased ticket afterwards because they didn't obtain refund insurance on their tickets. This has not happened to me so I've only heard these stories second hand.

Yes, 100% we should be able to.

Not only that you should be able to sue over what ever warrentless information gathering they did to determine that you belong on the list in the first place.

reply to post by GD21D


My views are admittedly radical and will never be policy, but in my opinion we should be notified in real time of ALL government documentation pertaining to us as individuals. I mean ALL. If the police apply for a warrant to search your home, I think you should be notified immediately and have the opportunity to fight it in court before they come knocking at your door expecting you to take their word that some papers I could make on my laptop are legit.

And more than that, I think freedom of movement is absolute, as a necessary component of the right to peaceably assemble. How can I have the right to assemble if the government can tell me that I'm not getting on a plane and flying to D.C. for the assembly?
Of course I could drive... if I have a government issued document saying they will let me drive, which certain people want to deny to certain other groups of people. And what exactly is the difference between an airplane and a truck from a counter-terrorist point of view? What's the ratio of truck bombs to airborne attacks in the history of terrorism? They could use the same logic behind no fly lists to make a no drive list and it would be the next best thing to house arrest- even if I had never done or even thought of doing anything wrong.

reply to post by The Vagabond


That would be one good thing to do with this tech we have. Put them on lists instead of us.
Great idea

reply to post by GD21D


Absolutely we should know. I've no great desire to buy a plane ticket to whereever, and later discover I'm not going to get on the plane...

Applause.

If security is as tight as everyone says, then there should be no need for no fly lists.
It's not like a bad guy could bring down a plane with a boxcutter anymore.
DHS makes it very difficult for people to travel without hassle and if we are willing to put up with it, then we must be safe enough to not need no flys. What about the sky marshals? Shouldn't that be enough? An armed guard against a terrorist that may be armed with a pen or whatever, should be easily subdued.

In my opinion, yes we should know if we are on a no fly list. Me, I decided not to fly anymore once the DHS moved in, so I guess I am speaking with my wallet.

reply to post by shadow watcher


There's another point- for all the scare we hear about this and that security exercise being failed, and the HUGE numbers of people who supposedly can't be trusted, why hasn't a terrorist managed to light so much as a cigarette on an airline since 9/11? Underwear and shoes- neither one ever had a chance- it's like a skit by the Al Qaida Improv Troupe. Shouldn't a 10 year war against terrorists trying to murder unarmed civilians have resulted in casualties among said unarmed civilians?

In the immortal words of George Carlin, there are no bombs, the whole thing is pointless. It's just one more way of reducing your liberty and reminding you that they can (mess) with you any time they want.

Are we expected to believe that thousands of Americans are traitors who can't be trusted not to kill the person sitting next to them, but somehow our glorious government is batting a thousand, not letting a single one through the cracks? Or is it more likely that there are few if any people trying all that hard to hurt us, but a government with the ability to exercise unreasonable power will grow drunk on it and exercise that power compulsively?

If I somehow end up on a no-fly list, the least I'd like is to have my ticket money refunded. I would also want to know WHY I'm on a no-fly list and what it will take for them to take me off that list. Let's hope it doesn't come to that. How sad that we should have to wonder about these things.

reply to post by The Vagabond

I agree totally.
Why stop at passengers, when the real threat is anyone on the ground with a missile?
Any real terrorist these days would never be on the plane, just knock it out of the sky when they are landing or taking off. As a kid living very near an airport, the planes went over my home so low that I swore I could smack one with a wrist rocket and a ball bearing. This war on terrorism is akin to the war on drugs. It's not going to work.

Thanks for the great replies. I wanted to put the idea out there as a discussion with some substance. Sometimes I think even in a community such as ATS we get caught up in theoretical discussions such as 2012, UFO's, FEMA camps, ect, and we lose track of real plausible issues right in front of our faces.That's not to discredit the aforementioned subjects. I do think there are some strange unexplained things that affect our lives, but there is no debate on whether no fly lists exist. These are known ideas that affect our daily lives, and get very little credence to what it really means to our freedoms and liberties. I'm not talking about TSA pat downs, I'm more interested in how being on list created by who knows, for who knows whatever reasons affects our natural rights in general.I was glad to play devils advocate in my OP. I like to have balance and look at it from a reasonable perspective from both sides. I could see a genuine security concern, if there was a genuine security concern. To be honest I really don't see one. Just from a logical perspective if you had intention to do harm would you use an aircraft to do it? With the millions of connexes and tons of illegal substances that enter the U.S. every year, the most effective attack is with an aircraft? It just doesn't make sense to me.At the very least it seems like a seized opportunity to chip away at natural rights, and diminish the ability of those who may be a political opposition to an ever growing tyrannical government. Every form of government will form processes of self preservation within it's system. These lists accomplish a form of self preservation. It virtually eliminates the ability of leaders with opposing views to grow and become influential over a period of time. I can't prove it, but I do think these lists affect more than just the ability to fly. As I stated in my OP these lists probably affect employment, education, and assistance opportunities. The government won't even disclose to us whether or not we're on the lists. What makes anyone think they would tell us these lists affect other areas of our lives as well?It isn't just suspected "terrorists" on these lists. Many Americans have been put on these lists for nothing more than having opposing views to mainstream ideals. Whats even more disturbing is that we don't know how many names are on these lists, and the reasoning behind them.

reply to post by GD21D


I see where you are going with this. We DON'T know who creates the lists and what criteria is used to add someone to the list. Expanding on this, if the no fly list were to be used further to deny not only public transit, but also auto insurance or other things necessary in order to function in today's world, we could be blacklisted from society in general. Knowing who is making the criteria and being able to fight it in court would be a huge step in keeping the no fly list a realistic tool for safety and not a means for punishing people who disagree with the way things are.

Originally posted by The Vagabond
reply to post by GD21D

 

My views are admittedly radical and will never be policy, but in my opinion we should be notified in real time of ALL government documentation pertaining to us as individuals. I mean ALL. If the police apply for a warrant to search your home, I think you should be notified immediately and have the opportunity to fight it in court before they come knocking at your door expecting you to take their word that some papers I could make on my laptop are legit.

And more than that, I think freedom of movement is absolute, as a necessary component of the right to peaceably assemble. How can I have the right to assemble if the government can tell me that I'm not getting on a plane and flying to D.C. for the assembly?
Of course I could drive... if I have a government issued document saying they will let me drive, which certain people want to deny to certain other groups of people. And what exactly is the difference between an airplane and a truck from a counter-terrorist point of view? What's the ratio of truck bombs to airborne attacks in the history of terrorism? They could use the same logic behind no fly lists to make a no drive list and it would be the next best thing to house arrest- even if I had never done or even thought of doing anything wrong.

I like the cut of your jib.

Originally posted by GD21D
There are no links or videos for this thread. If anything I would like to hear some opinions on the matter. I don't necessarily have a strong opinion one way or another .....

This attitude is why we have such problems with fedgov. People have been so passive .... so sheeplike ..... for so long that now we truly have a government that appears to be a den of wolves.

This government has no right, zero, to tell a citizen that they can't fly. The fact that we are allowing this travesty and state-sponsored molestation will end badly. Very badly.

I can tell you too that if I bought a ticket and was refused a refund after this gangster government told me I could not fly -- I'd be taking my refund out of someone's butt or their equipment.

Originally posted by jcarpenter

Originally posted by GD21D
There are no links or videos for this thread. If anything I would like to hear some opinions on the matter. I don't necessarily have a strong opinion one way or another .....

This attitude is why we have such problems with fedgov. People have been so passive .... so sheeplike ..... for so long that now we truly have a government that appears to be a den of wolves.

Read the second post. It'll show I actually have a pretty solid position. I lied to a certain extent, I fully admit it. It's very easy to take a negative approach on subjects such as these. Can we have successful discourse if we all just float to one side? Or are we attempting to have any kind of levity in our understanding of the situation? I want to know both sides of the argument, not just one. I think we all know it's wrong on one level or another, but what are we doing to fix these issues? It starts with the education of the people that don't understand the basis of the argument, let alone the fine details of the encroachments taking place. Those who don't understand will not simply buy into someones explanation who is staunchly set to one side. They have to have a firm grasp of the entire argument to have any chance to sway them.I'm not attacking you or even trying to be combative. Furthermore, I fully agree with what you say. I just want you to have an understanding of why the OP was worded the way it was. Educating ourselves is a continuous process, a process that we should never let stall by our emotions.