American Muslims Stone Christians in Dearborn, MI

reply to post by Furbs


He might have a point, who knows? One thing was said in one of the videos I watched of the different footage of this event (sorry do not know which one exactly now... I watched too many of them) and the Christian man said something to one of the children, he said "you all hate Jesus" to which the child replied "no we don't, we love Jesus very much" and the Christian man said "if you loved Jesus you would worship Him as god, you don't, so you hate Jesus"

and I thought what a weird thing to say since not even all Christians worship Jesus as god, and since when does worship = love or veneration?

I don't know but that did not sound like something I would imagine a christian would say to a child... but then with some you can never tell their interpretation so I let it go... but it might make more sense if those guys arent actually Christian, all I know if they claim to be.

reply to post by getreadyalready


Really?

Try to make racist remark or just question number of Jews that were killed in concentration camp, and I wonder how far will you last with your freedom.

Freedom of speech ends where freedom of hate starts, simple as that. Verbal attack is still 'attack', like it or not.

Speaking of this, there is new law here in Michigan regarding religious services. Disrupting those can get you up to 93 days in prison and $1,000 fine. Makes you wonder if next year this festival will be promoted as religious service.*

Wonder how would protester react if they get jailed.... will be end of the world as we knew it? (or will it end before that )

Source: madisle.info...

Originally posted by Gizawski
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

I bet you think that if I called you ugly, and you didn't like it, you have the right to attack me... If you want to have a law dictate your actions, maybe you should understand that it works for both parties. I can say what I want and so can you. Or are you, such as the video noted, implying that violent acts deserve reward?

As the other poster pointed out, you can call people ugly all you want, but if you get up in their face with a bullhorn, follow them around with signs saying "Hey, look how ugly this guy is" and picket outside their birthday party they're having for their kids, then yes, you are being abusive, you are being violent and you will meet violence in return because you provoked it.
There is a very, VERY big difference in saying "you're ugly" and doing this things I just listed. One is an opinion, the other is harassment which is also illegal. It is emotional and verbal abuse, that is violence and you would be provoking whatever violence you recieve in return just as the fake-christians in the video did.
THEIR rights END where the other groups rights BEGIN. The Muslim group had the RIGHT to peacefully assemble, the fake-christians infringed on that right so they comitted a crime that led to violence.

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
reply to post by Furbs

 

I don't know but that did not sound like something I would imagine a christian would say to a child... but then with some you can never tell their interpretation so I let it go... but it might make more sense if those guys arent actually Christian.

edit on 28-6-2012 by OpinionatedB because: (no reason given)

The same things goes for all terrorist and extremists. Are they really representing their faith??

Those guys are christian just the same as Islamist terrorists are Muslims - just buy name and religion. Everything they do actually goes against real religion, but medias are used to misinform 'average viewers'.

Who cares if story is true, if it will bring 5 min of fame...

reply to post by PurpleChiten


Great example chiten!

Since ATS loves to bash on cops, just imagine doing those things to a cop, and what would the backlash be? If I casually cruise by a cop and tell him he's ugly, I'll get some eye-rolling, they are used to a little abuse. If I scream at him and follow him around, I'm surely getting tazed, cuffed, and taken in for some charges!

These Christians were harassing people, and those people lashed back at them, which is perfectly human, and in my opinion justified.

nevermind

reply to post by SuperFrog

Really?

Try to make racist remark or just question number of Jews that were killed in concentration camp, and I wonder how far will you last with your freedom.

I don't understand what you are trying to say? People question that all the time, even here on ATS. People make fun of Jews in sitcoms, comedy skits, and in real life. Have you ever seen Southpark? Those writers still have their freedom.

Again, there is a HUGE difference in just making a remark or being skeptical about something, compared to harassing and intimidating people.

Never mind....

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by SuperFrog

 

Really?

Try to make racist remark or just question number of Jews that were killed in concentration camp, and I wonder how far will you last with your freedom.

I don't understand what you are trying to say? People question that all the time, even here on ATS. People make fun of Jews in sitcoms, comedy skits, and in real life. Have you ever seen Southpark? Those writers still have their freedom.

Again, there is a HUGE difference in just making a remark or being skeptical about something, compared to harassing and intimidating people.

People under anonymity of the internet do, but I remember reading reports of scientists being prosecuted just for questioning number of victims of concentration camp. Don't get me wrong, I do not support holocaust denial, but imho scientists should be able to question everything, even number of dead in concentration camps. (as matter of fact, I was victim of concentration camp in begging of 90s)

I just tried to differentiate someone free speech right and verbal attack, and you did that very well in your example with cop. Thank you.

I fully support the police escorting those guys out. They were wrong to be there doing what they were doing and they were inciting violence.

If it were a Christian festival and there was a group of Muslims doing the same thing, I would support the police escorting them out as they would be inciting violence.

Of course, the ones there with the signs aren't Christian at all, Christians don't behave in that way... REAL Christians don't. In the same way, REAL Muslims wouldn't behave that way either.

We're seeing extremists on the Christian side attacking average Muslims who aren't normally violent and inciting them to violence. The "terrorists" are not average Muslims, they are extremists just like the guys that are out there videotaping and editing it to put on youtube are extremists AND terrorists.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by PurpleChiten

 

Great example chiten!

Since ATS loves to bash on cops, just imagine doing those things to a cop, and what would the backlash be? If I casually cruise by a cop and tell him he's ugly, I'll get some eye-rolling, they are used to a little abuse. If I scream at him and follow him around, I'm surely getting tazed, cuffed, and taken in for some charges!

These Christians were harassing people, and those people lashed back at them, which is perfectly human, and in my opinion justified.

Indeed.

people seem to have an odd view of "freedoms" which is not in compliance with the Constitution. The right to free speech means speech against the government, the right to freely speak out against your government without fear of retaliation. It doesn't cover inciting riots. The right to religious freedom means the right to worship as you please - not the right to go and incite violence and riots against OTHER religions. Curtailing THEIR religion is just as wrong as if they curtailed YOURS.

In neither case - freedom of speech nor freedom of religion - is incitement to riot a "protected" form of speech or activity. having an opinion is one thing, but harassment is something else altogether.

And of course, with EVERY freedom comes a concomitant responsibility. You don't get one without the other. If you can't exercise your own responsibility right alongside your rights, expect others to exercise their rights to self-defense against harassment.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Okay, so I go to a christian festival while wearing a t-shirt with Richard Dawkins on it, and I have a sign saying 'There's No God'. Do the Christians have a right to throw stuff at me? Am I a troublemaker simply by voicing my beliefs? I don't think so. There may be heated arguments, and that's fine. But those individuals causing violence are the ones that should be arrested. Violence is against the law; freedom of speech isn't.

Of course there is a shade of gray that eventually crosses the line, but where is the line? I don't know, but I know it when I see it. What you describe would be perfectly acceptable, but if you had a megaphone, shouting that they were all evil trash destined to burn in a fiery pit, and you scared the children and old people and made it impossible for anyone to enjoy themselves, then someone should shut you up.

Obviously I don't know everything, and I'm not always right, but I know where I would draw a line, and where I would take it upon myself to put a stop to something.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like the situation at all. God's chosen fighting against...?...god's chosen? What a joke. So, first, no religious group should be able to get a permit to worship, or do anything on public grounds. They could've held their festival on private property or church grounds. Second: violence is violence is violence. Some of those Muslims should've been arrested for hitting those people with rocks and whatever.

reply to post by jiggerj

Some of those Muslims should've been arrested for hitting those people with rocks and whatever.

Sure, I don't disagree with that. Had I been in that situation, it would have still been worth it.

And I completely agree that the city should bear some of the responsibility for issuing competing permits. That is a recipe for disaster, and neither one of those groups needed to be permitted, but especially not at the same time and same place.

Originally posted by Ilovecatbinlady
reply to post by MidnightTide

 

That is the problem, a significant proportion of Muslims practicing Islam DO believe in those violent passages. Just your post alone would target you for death.

You will have to prove your comment. You will gave to prove that an atser will be targeted for death over his comment by Muslims.

I cannot, then you are a liar.

Also what Muslims believe about their faith is strictly their business and not yours especially when you have a reputation for not being truthful.

Turn on your television, go on youtube......lots of evidence. Look at the person who made the comic about Mohammad, or talk to a person who has decided to stop practicing Islam, or talk to a person who is found to be homosexual - wonder what happens to them?

As to not being truthful, take a look in the mirror......I am telling the truth, its just people like you that don't want it talked about.

Originally posted by Ilovecatbinlady
reply to post by MidnightTide

 

That is the problem, a significant proportion of Muslims practicing Islam DO believe in those violent passages. Just your post alone would target you for death.

You will have to prove your comment. You will gave to prove that an atser will be targeted for death over his comment by Muslims.

I believe MidnightTide is correct. I think a lot of Muslims (particularly in Pakistan) would want to kill me for what I have written.

However, the reason why they would do that, is because they would falsely associate themselves as individuals, with Islam as the overall religion. I have reached a point, where I do not blame Islam as an overall religion, for the behaviour of its' individual followers.

I believe that there are a lot of belligerent, aggressive, and even murderous Muslims in the world. They would be entirely willing to kill anyone who would reprimand them for said behaviour, as being unworthy of God. I also know, however, and have seen on this forum, that there are a great many Muslims who are positive, compassionate, and principled people as well; and they do not behave in that manner.

So I meant what I said, when I said I was not criticising Islam as a religion, but individual Muslims.

I have now taken the time to study the writings of three different religions; Christianity, Hinduism, and (to a lesser extent, admittedly) Islam. What I have found, is that Islam's Prophet was correct when stating that God is one, but that Muslims misinterpret that statement. What Mohammed meant (and he also clarifies this in the Qu'ran as well) is that God can be worshipped by different people in different ethnic groups throughout the world, there will still be found persistent or universal characteristics of the divine attitude; and those characteristics are, as well as moral restraint, love, compassion, humanism, and a desire for justice.

So I believe that the contemporary Muslims who say that it is impossible for a person to know God outside Islam, and that everyone who exists outside Islam should be killed, are wrong. If you look at the Hindu scriptures you will find confirmation of the same positive divine characteristics which Mohammed talks about in the earlier passages of the Qu'ran; and within the (admittedly very limited, in canon terms at least) words of Jesus you find the same attitude, and the same values being expressed.

A religion of hatred, fear, and violence, is not a religion of God. Islam itself, however, is not such a religion in its' entirety. There is much good within it; it is simply that false material was added to it as well, and then the equally false doctrine of abrogation was used, in order to justify said material. So I believe that any Muslim who would murder me as an infidel, is in fact an infidel themselves.

I do not take any one single scripture, as evidence of what I consider to be the personality of God. I take the common elements which I have been able to find from several of them, as well as my own contact with Kali Ma, and the way she has treated me, as such evidence. What she has told me, and what I have been able to deduce from these three sets of scripture, is that rage, hatred, and fear, should never be emotional states which motivate a person's actions. That, by definition, rules out murdering those considered infidels, or those considered to have committed apostasy.



The main reason why I love this song, is because Islam has been consistently a taboo subject among virtually everyone I've known, for as long as I've been alive. The thing I've been discovering though, is that the reason why Islam doesn't get spoken about, is because of the intolerance and ugliness of many of its adherents.

Islam is a religion which is defiled by many of its' followers. There is much positive material there; but for the most part, you won't see it by observing Muslims. The faith itself can be good; the people are not.

reply to post by petrus4



"I believe MidnightTide is correct. I think a lot of Muslims (particularly in Pakistan) would want to kill me for what I have written."

You will have to prove your statement too.

All we can be sure about is that it is in fact Americans that are the killers of Pakistanis. Do you forget about your taxpayer paid killer drones?

It is because of the murder drone that they would kill you and not because of some asinine comment you make on ats.

Originally posted by Ilovecatbinlady
reply to post by petrus4

 

It is because of the murder drone that they would kill you for and not because of some asinine comment you make on ats.

If that is the case, then such would still be an injustice; as much as the American military's actions in Afghanistan and Iraq have been an injustice. I am in no way responsible for the deployment of drones. I have no individual association with that whatsoever.

For anyone who is interested, I have also started a new thread on this subject in broader terms, here.

For the record, my own dear mother just made the mistake of "sharing" this story on her FB page, and I blasted her just like I blasted this thread. It is ridiculous that people read a sensationalist headline that doesn't even describe the event, and automatically jump to conclusions "like" it and "share" it.

So, I love Mom, but I blasted the video, and I hope all of her Christian friends read it and take a moment to actually look into this event instead of just reading the headline.

I bet if I walked into that fest, being a white guy and not part of that Christian group, I would be just fine. The Muslim's problem in this video isn't white people or religion...it's annoying folks pushing their brand of religion down their throat.


Turns out nobody likes being told what they should or shouldn't believe.

reply to post by petrus4


I think the same can be easily said for Christians. Anytime religion is involved, people tend to become beligerant as they get more extremist in their beliefs.

If Christ came back today, at least 75% of the people who say they follow him would try to re-crucify him. During the crusades, countless people were brutally murdered. During the past century, the KKK was a "Chrsitian group" and murdered many. When people allow religious beliefs to cloud their judgment, they degrade their humanity, their intelligence AND the belief system they claim to follow.

Most people who claim to be Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Jewish or any other organized religion are very far from what said religion actually stands for