Prepare To Have Your Mind Boggled

ITT: The perils of 'bath salts'.

Originally posted by smokingmonkey
reply to post by Sinny

 

Put seven apples on a plate, then take seven apples off of the plate. Zero apples are left on the plate, not very mind boggling at that level.

But the plate is still there, so it's not "nothing" , there just aren't any apples

Imagining nothing is like seeing an empty space! Is it light or dark?

Originally posted by morethanyou

Originally posted by Sinny
Can I just ask trolling idiots to keep off this thread.

(Slap round the face for me, for thinking I could have a decent discussion on ATS)

Calm T F down. Take a breath, maybe a pill. When will my brain blow? quoting opposites? What was will never be.

Oh BTW, just saying. >u

Ooo I must have over looked where the OP said "decent discussion on ATS".

I had no idea decent discussions were started by insulting anyone who isn't impressed by the topic in the very first post.

Quite a way to have a decent discussion that is.

That aside, the topic isn't much without links to the original theory.
An abridged regurgitation of a theory does not make for a discussion.

I like to think of zero as a center point of balance. Imagine a scale used to weigh things. When each side of the scale is equal in weight the scale reads zero. Zero is a concept and can represent many different things.

How would you suggest we represent that center point of balance without zero? Zero is not meant to only represent the absence of something. It is also used to represent equality. It is used to represent a starting point. You can use that starting point as reference to judge distances in any direction.

You can read how different cultures that did not use zero ran into problems when trying to represent certain concepts. Take a moment and try to see how useful the zero really is.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by LoonyConservative
Still waiting for my mind to be blown, are you trying to rewrite some mathematical and physics laws or what?

U want your mind to be blown sir?? Believe in God!! Yes Capitol G!!

reply to post by Sinny


Perhaps you have already read the book "Everything Forever -- Learning to See Timelessness"?

If not I think you will find a very interesting presentation of a system of mathematics where zero equals infinity (God's Math).

there is more than one universe. there are several billion universes. and we will never ever grasp that concept. that blows my mind.

sincerely,

spritual33

Oh what a tangled web one sees, when dealing with "Infinity"...

Two sides of the same coin:

1) Linear existences, with a belief in an absolution, and repeatable results going by the moniker "Order"

2) Non-Linear existences, where Virtual relativistic perceptions are generated by the observer, leading to fractals (a bastardization of linear operations BTW) or "Chaos Theories" whereas "apparent" randomization is divided into two categories internally, the repeating formula(s), yet the outward and or inward expansion of the curvature, leads to pictures and forms that have more to do with organic structures, then it does with linearity..

The "paradox" made whole, yet ignored and qualified as an "oddity" by the mathematical community.. (such is Chaos theories..

Then you have the central item, the central core for actually "both" forms of operations, the one item that seeks neither parties permissions to exist, it floats upon a sea of ignorance, as it is asked to do one thing only:

NOTHING

It is given a false sense of security as either the tenth character in a decimal system, or the first character in the decimal system (end users desire of course), it represents having no value, yet becomes a talk of mathematical value in inner circles, because it is given a virtual existence to claim a "decimal system"...

We are asked to ignore so much reality for it to exist "mathematically", that out of sheer desperation and for the glory of accounting, it is given a designation of "nothing physically remaining" thus cloaking it in a thinly and very revealing guise of having mathematical meaning, when nothing could be more laughable in mathematical operations, as mathematics by it's very operations, and it's very definitions simply "does not exist" in any form or way as a natural physical object in "reality"...

We cloak it's meaning, and it's operations, as having purpose, we tell a programmer that zero is the representation of "off, when in the engineering world it truly is "never off" and gloss over this little factoid, thus further obfuscating the central meaning of "zero" itself, we make excuses for it's existence in our everyday lives, and draw a false since of purpose over it's need to be a part and central character in our mathematical systems..

Do you people truly want to see zero for what it is?, or are we looking for it to fit in, to continue to override our common sense and logical deductive reasoning when dealing with this one, single, character that can bring to it's knees, even the most sophisticated of machines and man among us..

In ALL our current mathematical systems, zero is never used, it is never given purpose or meaning, it is ignored, it is a red headed stepchild of the world of mathematics, only surpassed by the hate for the operator division itself, as they are close cousins in more ways then even most mathematicians would ever admit, or corrupt their eyes and mind with..

Zero is used as a linear purpose, the allusion (illusion is more apropos IMO) to it representation as a goal that can never be truly reached, a white sheet format, for which all things are possible, yet none can be made achievable by zero alone..

The ultimate "Divide & Conquer" Mentality that one could be derived from those we term TPTB..

I see the handiwork of at least one to a small group of master mathematicians handiwork in the derisive mathematical operations we have today, and I do "tip my hat" to those of old, that had enough intelligence, to see the inner fighting with both halves of the human brain this would cause among all that try to tackle that one little symbol we call "ZERO"....

Yet what if.. just "What--If" it is actually possible to give meaning and purpose to Zero, while still remaining true to the elementary placement of it?, what if it was actually "quantifiable?"..

Ask yourself then, what could be achieved, and what would then become past tense in achievements?

I have done such a task, and accomplished such a goal, yet I realize it will never be allowed to exist in this world as it is now, for it would remove barriers between both halves of the brain, and cause people to awaken to their "true" potential when it becomes apparent the simplicity of the trick used when dealing with zero..

I could boggle your mind as well OP, but I fear you would not be receptive to it (as experience of mine dictates)

Safe to say (one day)..

Zero will have been given it's "true" meaning, and the world will become a better place for it..

reply to post by Sinny


Well I just got to reply to this now. Your statement is actually correct in a sense that more than 90% of protons mass is randomly moving "empty space", not the quarks. This is interesting because that means that most mass in the universe is this "empty space". So in a sense you are some what correct with your OP.

Ps. This is my first post in ats. I have been arojnd here for a year, but made my accojnt just recently.

One of the biggest questions you can ask is if time just always was? did time have a beggining?

reply to post by Sinny

For Space to exist and it is really Space/Time...you need Matter to also exist as the existence of Space/Time is determined by DISTANCE and distance is created and governed by many Dimensional States of Geometry.

Currently we believe there are as many as 10 or 11 Dimensional States in our Universe...I believe there are more but let's just stick with 11 for now. Each Geometric Aspect or Dimensional State is partially Governed by each and every one of the other Dimensional States.

Many people believe that for Matter to exist that you need at least 3 Dimensions...this is not true. One of the reasons for this is that Matter is made up of many different types of particles...some have mass...some or pure Energy. You can't have a Elemental Atom of say Helium which has Protons, Neutrons...of which both of these have mass and are part of the Nucleus of an Atom of Helium. But for ever Proton in an Atom's Nucleus you must have an Electrons orbiting it of equal number to the number of Protons. The electron is Energy yet it behaves as both particle and wave and is a Quantum Particle. A Photon or Light...is also a Quantum Particle and is part of the Electromagnetic Spectrum which includes electrons and this electromagnetic Spectrum includes Radio Waves, Microwaves, X-Rays...etc...and they all are at a specific Frequency which determines their reality.

Now Even in a Proton or Neutron...these particles of Mass are made up of Smaller Quantum Particles such as Quarks, Leptons, Gluons and as some of these articles decay they take on different states but they...even though they make up two particles that have Mass...are Quantum Particles and do not behave the way the way the Macro-Universe...and this starts at the Atomic Level of a Hydrogen Atom which typically exists as a Elemental Molecule as Hydrogen exists normally as H2 or Two Atoms of Hydrogen sharing an Electron Orbit.

My POINT to all this is that SPACE/TIME exists in a Multifaceted Multidimensional state of Universal Creation of EMPTY DISTANCE BETWEEN PARTICLES. The Reality of Why the MACRO-UNIVERSE behaves in a way that we all experience daily and can grasp to a certain extent is really just part of a MUCH LARGER SYSTEM and Dark Matter and Dark Energy not withstanding....even these things are part of what is known as the MULTIVERSE. Quantum Mechanics seems to favor the existence of a MULTIVERSE as Quantum Particles like say...QUARKS of which there are several type...UP,DOWN,CHARMED...etc...these Quantum Particle are able to BLINK IN AND OUT OF EXISTENCE from this Universe. Thus they seem to be able to change positions as well as build up to Maximum Numbers or lower themselves to Minimum numbers but never more or less than these Minimums or Maximums but between these numbers they can exist numerically at will...this seems to be based upon PROBABILITY as well as CAUSE AND EFFECT...which can precede the creation of an Alternate Divergent Universal State or a Reality based upon our own which a choice or occurrence has created a Divergent Reality.

So...it doesn't really matter if you have a Million -1's added together with a Million 1's and they equal ZERO.
Split Infinity

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by LightSpeedDriver

Originally posted by jiggerj
Would you mind some light chat on this, because I have to ask: Are there really 14 numbers there? I would say that there either has to be 15 numbers, or just 7. You considered all the negative digits below zero to be numbers, but not the zero. If zero isn't a number, why would any value less than zero qualify as a number? So, either the zero is a number, making it a total of 15 numbers, or every value from zero to -7 isn't a number, making the total of just the 7 positive numbers.

Aha! By the same logic why would any number above zero be considered worthy as a number? Hmmmm?

Because every number above zero represents something: 7 walnuts, 7 beers...
But when you start at zero walnuts you can't go backwards and say that you have one less than zero walnuts, 2 less than zero walnuts, 7 less than zero walnuts. It doesn't work because no matter what negative number you assign to it, you only have zero walnuts.

edit on 6/23/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

Yes, but that don't work in accounting. My bank account balance is - 1.778, therefore I have a negative value which need to get leveled, and that value is pretty much real.

Originally posted by LightSpeedDriver
reply to post by LoonyConservative

 

The future looks dark my friend, very dark. Best don those protective goggles soon....

ETA2 Caption reads:

Estimated distribution of matter and energy in the universe, today (top) and when the CMB was released (bottom).

and source.

edit on 23/6/12 by LightSpeedDriver because: Grammar

ETA What is faster, the speed of light or the speed of dark?

edit on 23/6/12 by LightSpeedDriver because: ETA

edit on 23/6/12 by LightSpeedDriver because: ETA2

Obviously the speed of dark, as it is always one step ahead of the light!!!

reply to post by DARREN1976

Dark doesn't exist, it's just that there is no light source for matter to react to.

reply to post by Sinny


this isn't as profound as you are attempting to make it out to be, "nothing" is a concept regulated to lacking something, it is merely the "null" or lack of something in human language. the only place it really exists is in math and concepts drawn from math. rather like infinity, infinity doesn't really exist outside of the concept of designating a number that has no end.

so tell me, what scientist makes the claims in this OP, i would love to know, because it sounds like the ramblings of someone who is on drugs.
i've heard the same things from people who are high on weed speaking of such asinine things like "nothing is really something, since it exists in place of stuff! think about that!"
i mean really? if you add -7 to 7, you get zero, even though it is 14 numbers? i mean while that is true i don't really consider it mind boggling by any stretch, more like a "duuuuuuh" moment for me.

of course you can't have negative things in reality only in math, what about imaginary numbers? think about that for a second, how can people imagine up numbers?

yeah that is how deep the OP is, rather like asking if god can create a square circle. profound only until you realize that human language defines a square a certain way and a circle a certain way, thus it makes it impossible because human language makes it impossible not logic/physics or god.

yeah but what do i know? i'm a brainless idiot, who has moved beyond playing semantic games with language and logic

How the heck will I be able to sleep tonight
My brain is involved in a right side verses left side struggle .

reply to post by pillock

lol In this case let that substance in your signature be your solution for current problem.

I was going to reply but then deleted it but then posted this as proof that is wasn't going to reply.

Zero exists if you need it to. It is but also isn't.

You can apply this way of thinking to anything to build a condition statement.

1's and 0's baby.

Thinking that you can think is a thought nonetheless and what is a thought? That is worth thinking about. OSS.

Where did I put that '___'?

Its just the methods of how you do the math.
Isn't this another way of saying 7 minus 7 is zero and in this way of looking at it you actually only used 7 numbers?
7 take away 14 equals minus 7, that's where it uses the 14 numbers.

Math has always boggled me because of this