Humanity escapes the solar system: Voyager 1 signals that it has reached the edge of interstellar sp

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13
reply to post by Zcustosmorum

 

My concern is "PIRATES" WHO MAY FIND THE DATA ON IT. I mean WHY didnt scientist place a LOCAL or GENERAL locaiton of EA*RTH. then place a beacon there to communicate with EA*RTH. Instead scientist placed the MAP to EA*RTH out there not considering PIRATES, smh. Achievment MUCH APPRECIATED IN MANKINDS ABILITIES WITH TECHNOLOGY. But yea what about pirates???

edit on 6/15/12 by Ophiuchus 13 because: (no reason given)

PIRATES!?!?!? By far the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

Originally posted by GiodanoBruno

Originally posted by Ophiuchus 13
reply to post by Zcustosmorum

 

My concern is "PIRATES" WHO MAY FIND THE DATA ON IT. I mean WHY didnt scientist place a LOCAL or GENERAL locaiton of EA*RTH. then place a beacon there to communicate with EA*RTH. Instead scientist placed the MAP to EA*RTH out there not considering PIRATES, smh. Achievment MUCH APPRECIATED IN MANKINDS ABILITIES WITH TECHNOLOGY. But yea what about pirates???

edit on 6/15/12 by Ophiuchus 13 because: (no reason given)

PIRATES!?!?!? By far the dumbest thing I have ever heard.

It's the damn Somalis! They're not having a lot of luck here on Earth these days, so they launched a band of pirates into space with the goal of catching up with and looting the Voyager.

Originally posted by intrptr

Thats about 7 miles per second. And what a message we sent along with it. A golden disk that tells of our history and our exact whereabouts! That will be useful information to whomever finds this thing as it also contains several pounds of decaying plutonium.

Once the nuclear battery on board rots and releases its cargo the whole of voyager and some small region of space around the satellite will become covered in decaying isotopes of the most toxic stuff on Earth.

I wonder what any who find it will think of that?

"Greetings form the people of Planet Earth."

Ok, I've seen this mentioned a couple times already in the thread and it's really starting to bug me. I mean, the idea that a couple of pounds of radioactive material inside Voyager--or any other of our space probes, for that matter--is being characterized as some sort of pollution? Like there will be a cloud of toxic nastiness in the vicinity of Voyager such that any peace-loving hyper-advanced alien race would wave their tentacles in annoyance that the stupid warmongering barbaric humans are polluting the pristine natural environment of space and endangering the purple-spotted comet worms.

I mean, seriously, people. This is effing space we're talking about. There are so many highly charged particles flying around out there that make the neutrons flinging off the Voyager fuel look like butterfly kisses and gentle breezes, and that's within the protective cocoon of the helioshpere from our sun(which, in case you had forgotten, is a very very large continuous thermonuclear explosion that hurls zillions of highly charged particles all over the place). Outside the heliosphere, where people are speculating the saintly aliens may come upon our little spacecraft, there are charged particles from millions of other stars flying around(interstellar wind), not to mention supernova remnant particles, quasar accelerated particles, and the cosmic ray "background" radiation which is a remnant of the freaking Big Bang and has some of the most energetic and deadly particles yet detected.
Voyager's "oh-so-toxic" Plutonium fuel is harmless by comparison.

reply to post by InTheLight


hehehe, sorry, this struck me as funny

Humanitys greatest achievment in space but almost nothing on the news here in the uk about it. I had to hear about it on the net. Athough I remember it reaching jupiter and another and that was all over the news. Its the furtherst weve ever been and by the amount of time it took to get there at that speed probably the only one we'll see within the nxt 20 yrs.. I just think it deserves more recognition than its been given.

What an achievment NASA.. Well done.. Only if you told us everything.. We got pics of the planets so why not pics of things its flown by ? ? ? ?

Originally posted by openyourmind1262
reply to post by Six6Six

 

I wish I could give you as many stars as NASA has spent money, then you six6six would be star rich indeed. NASA, America's biggest money funnel ever.. Trillions & trillions of our taxpayer $$$$$ so folks can get a "warm & fuzzy" about some BS. Let em keep looking up, as the world around them crumbles. Sad, sad indeed.

You know, it's cool and everything for you to hate NASA, I really don't care if you like them or not(and guess what? Neither do they).
But ATS is purportedly about denying ignorance(that is the site motto, isn't it?) and you are engaging in an emotionally charged campaign of propagating ignorance in the form of misinformation.
Yes, NASA has spent lots of money. Yes, they are funded publicly, which makes them a de-facto gov agency despite their claims to the contrary, and governments have spent all of history proving that the only thing they are really good at is getting bigger and screwing stuff up. I'm all for private industry taking over human endeavors in space, and for NASA to be phased out(wouldn't that be a first? A government agency, discontinued!! Perhaps a trend may begin).
But your characterization of NASA expenditures as "trillions and trillions" and it being the "biggest money funnel ever" are completely false.

The total amounts (in nominal dollars) that NASA has been budgeted from 1958 to 2011 amounts to $526.18 billion dollars—an average of $9.7 billion per year. By way of comparison, total spending over this period by the National Science Foundation was roughly one-fourth of NASA's expenditures: $101.5 billion, or $2 billion a year. NASA's FY 2011 budget of $18.4 billion represents about 0.5% of the $3.4 trillion United States federal budget during the year, or about 35% of total spending on academic scientific research in the United States.

According to the Office of Management and Budget and the Air Force Almanac, when measured in real terms (adjusted for inflation), the figure is $790.0 billion, or an average of $15.818 billion dollars per year over its fifty year history.

"790 Billion" is not anything near "trillions and trillions." Did you get those numbers from an ex-Enron accountant or something? Because those guys are liars, in case you hadn't heard.

reply to post by Tsurugi


So i guess six billion is ok to piss away in space, with zero to show for it. You did a good job of showing where the $$$$ went, what about all the earth shattering "breakthroughs" in anything space related. Yea I have a problem with NASA, just as I have a problem with any "con-man" or con agency in this case.

NASA is a waste of our tax dollars. It was when it was created, it still is now. A $$$$ funnel. Millions of tax dollars hurling thru space, hell yea that makes sense. In the mean time here on earth, veterans sleeping under bridges, homeless people everywhere, Fukashima melting down and contaminateing the world, violence in the middles east., Infrastructure crumbleing at our feet, I could go on & on & on. But let's piss the $$$$ away in space and on space programs. Sure as hell makes perfect sense to YOU.

Originally posted by Tsurugi

 

I mean, the idea that a couple of pounds of radioactive material inside Voyager--or any other of our space probes, for that matter--is being characterized as some sort of pollution?

Some sort of pollution? Only about 15 lbs of the most toxic material known to man. During the thousands of years that voyager will traverse the void, the PU will eventually decay its container to the point that gaseous isotopes will float out and because of gravity stick to the surface of the craft. Also float around it in a cloud accompanying it wherever it goes.

Space is huge, you're right. And Voyager is a long ways away from earth. And like you said space is full of stars and cosmic rays, etc. The difference is that these energetic particles that zing around out there pass right thru whatever they encounter and keep right on going. Like an X-ray machine, the X-rays are generated until the source of the X-rays are turned off. The material in the nuclear "battery" cannot be "turned off" but keeps emitting as a source of alpha rays, the most insidious of their ilk. Ingest one millionth of a gram of PU (238) and you are guaranteed to contract cancer from it. You will slowly die. Spread it like dust on the exterior of voyager and for hundreds if not thousands of years this man made poisonous gift with a golden happy message on board will be the most insulting welcome mat I could personally think of.

Of course the radioactivity will eventually decay and pose little harm to the cosmos. But the idea that we sent this toxic envoy representative of our human best regards is frankly insane. The idea that aliens will find it and bring it aboard is also remote... or is it? To be true to the genre, convention holds that they are all around us and caring for the human race? Or not? Depends on your point of view, I guess.

The golden message disc on board was placed there after all for that purpose wasn't it? To greet whomever finds it and welcome them with open arms? And a little hidden cancer surprise?

Comparing Fusion in the sun or cosmic rays to a Radioisotopic Thermoelectric Generator(RTG) is ignorant or intentionally deceiving. There is no comparison.The difference between an x-ray machine and a radioactive isotope is that when you shut off an x-ray machine, the radiation stops, while an isotope keeps on irradiating; some for a very long time. The radioactive contamination from PU(238) is constantly emitting fresh ionizing radiation, the solar wind passés thru you and is gone. Plutonium keeps on irradiating your cells once it is absorbed for however long it decays. But don't take my word for it, read up for yourself.

nonuclear.se...
www.universetoday.com...
www.nvmp.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.animatedsoftware.com...

Originally posted by openyourmind1262
NASA is a waste of our tax dollars. It was when it was created, it still is now. A $$$$ funnel.

I guess you missed my post, pointing out that NASA funding can have a positive economic impact.

Millions of tax dollars hurling thru space, hell yea that makes sense.

Again for the second time. The money is spent here on Earth on peoples salaries and other such things. Creating jobs and new technology and products as well as furthering our knowledge and understanding about ourselves and our environment. None of that money disappears into space.

In the mean time here on earth, veterans sleeping under bridges, homeless people everywhere, Fukashima melting down and contaminateing the world, violence in the middles east., Infrastructure crumbleing at our feet, I could go on & on & on. But let's piss the $$$$ away in space and on space programs. Sure as hell makes perfect sense to YOU.

What does any of that have to do with NASA? Some of those things are more of a responsibility for the US Government. NASA's budget is only 0.5% of the entire US Federal budget. It's pocket change by comparison to other Federal budgets/spending.

Originally posted by intrptr
During the thousands of years that voyager will traverse the void, the PU will eventually decay its container to the point that gaseous isotopes will float out and because of gravity stick to the surface of the craft. Also float around it in a cloud accompanying it wherever it goes.

PU-238 has a half-life of 87 years. After that it decays into Uranium-234.

The material in the nuclear "battery" cannot be "turned off" but keeps emitting as a source of alpha rays, the most insidious of their ilk.

Alpha particles are the most "insidious of there ilk"? Really?

From: Alpha emission: Toxicity

Being relatively heavy and positively charged, alpha particles tend to have a very short mean free path, and quickly lose kinetic energy within a short distance of their source. This results in several MeV being deposited in a relatively small volume of material. This increases the chance of cellular damage in cases of internal contamination. In general, external alpha radiation is not harmful since alpha particles are effectively shielded by a few centimeters of air, a piece of paper, or the thin layer of dead skin cells. Even touching an alpha source is usually not harmful, though many alpha sources also are accompanied by beta-emitting radio daughters, and alpha emission is also accompanied by gamma photon emission. If substances emitting alpha particles are ingested, inhaled, injected or introduced through the skin, then it could result in a measurable dose.

So if you don't swallow it, inhale it or find some way to get it inside your body, you'll be fine. I think any alien species capable of interstellar travel will be smart enough not to put it in their mouth. (You would hope so any way).

Of course the radioactivity will eventually decay and pose little harm to the cosmos. But the idea that we sent this toxic envoy representative of our human best regards is frankly insane.

What other power sources do you think would be better for probes traveling through the outer solar system? Solar panels don't work well beyond Jupiter.

The idea that aliens will find it and bring it aboard is also remote... or is it?

I would think that any alien species capable of traveling through interstellar space will no doubt have amazing radiation shielding technology as well the ability to detect it.

Just imagine if other species sent out their crafts as well ...

Who knows, maybe the entire universe is full of (un)manned crafts by a vast diversity of species

reply to post by jra

PU-238 has a half-life of 87 years.

In which 50% of its decay path is expended. Then half again, and again. There really is no end to the danger as far as it goes. Dividing the radioactivity of one particle by two every 87 years. It will take much longer to decay to "harmless" status. PU (239) takes billions of years to turn to lead. And even then it is still toxic, no? Talking in terms of "half lives" is one of the misnomers of radioactive decay (for public consumption).

During the decay of plutonium, three types of radiation are released—alpha, beta, and gamma. Alpha radiation can travel only a short distance and cannot travel through the outer, dead layer of human skin. Beta radiation can penetrate human skin, but cannot go all the way through the body. Gamma radiation can go all the way through the body. Alpha, beta, and gamma radiation are all forms of ionizing radiation. Either acute or longer-term exposure carries a danger of serious health outcomes including radiation sickness, genetic damage, cancer, and death. The danger increases with the amount of exposure.

So if you don't swallow it, inhale it or find some way to get it inside your body, you'll be fine. I think any alien species capable of interstellar travel will be smart enough not to put it in their mouth. (You would hope so any way).

Yah, especially since they cannot see, smell or taste it. And they don't have any reason to suspect that the dust covering the voyager craft and leaking from the 15 foot boom to be anything but a safe environment, since there are no disclaimers printed on the side of the "battery" in any language they can read anyway.

What other power sources do you think would be better for probes traveling through the outer solar system? Solar panels don't work well beyond Jupiter.

There are none. In my mind that makes it as "okay" as nuclear power plants here on earth. Thats the insane part.

Alpha rays do not travel very far. They are harmless outside the body, but once inside they can damage more than 10,000 cells within their range. Alpha emitters are among the most deadly of radioactive materials.

nonuclear.se...

This illustration is taken from Robert Del Tredici's book Working in the Fields of the Bomb - published in 1987. It shows a plutonium particle emitting ionising radiation. The tracks are about 35 microns (5 cell diameters) but this is a two dimensional view of a 3D tissue event, which in fact occurs continuously in biological space. Like a land mine that never stops exploding, it is perpetually damaging and destroying cells.

Since it has a short emission path - it is difficult to detect outside the body. Customary histology and autopsy studies do not detect it so plutonium in the living body is likely to be an occult, undetected and unreported factor. In man, it is particularly well situated to cause harm since it lodges especially in the body-wide reticulo-endothelial system. Here it can impair and kill cells of the immune system leading to immune deficiency and eventually leukemia.

www.animatedsoftware.com...

So it is difficult to detect as the emission path is so short. Alpha emitters like plutonium are the most insidious for that very reason. Even holding a detector right up to the "suspected" contamination may not always detect it.

Meanwhile the individual particles are so small and "light" that any disturbance of them will cause them to readily "waft" into the air where they can be breathed in. Once you are exposed to micron sized dust contamination, like that, you cannot clean it up. The best solution is not to get anywhere near the environment it is contained in and just "bury" the whole thing deep underground. Which is exactly what they do with contaminated equipment from making bomb pits and fuel rods for nuclear reactors.

And what would archeological aliens do once they find their souvenir ? Out of sight, out of mind is our way of dealing with it. We shot it to the stars. But lets say they do find it and take it aboard. It could be like buried treasure from their view point. Buried in space.

Buried nuclear waste will be explored by archaeologists, miners, and others who may not necessarily know anything about radioactivity (or they may know but have weird ideas). They might not even understand our warning pictograms or on the contrary, use them as a guide to further their action of "opening the plutonium tombs". Of course it did not occur to our Egyptologists to measure radioactivity before opening the sarcophages. However, if, ten thousand years from now, an archaeologist finds our "plutonium-phages" and he takes them away, he may seriously jeopardise their health and safety.

Aren't the pioneer probes already in interstellar space.
Since they where launched before the voyager missions ?

reply to post by jra


Your Canadian and your argueing with an (American) about NASA an( American agency). Sorry my Canadian counterpart. YOUR tax dollars has'nt been taken. Mine has. Billions of it for years & years & years. Canada= NO SPACE PROGRAM. When you all get one, when you all piss away your tax $$$$$ in space & all things space related, come on back, because then you have a say. Until then, sip your Molson, eat you fries with cheese & brown gravy. It's what you all do best.

reply to post by openyourmind1262

Whats your point ?
We get it, you distrust NASA and all the rest... Good for you.

If you can't find good refuting arguments against jra, you don't need to rely on ad hominem fallacy.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
We have finally become an interstellar species. We could have accomplished so much more if ALL Nations & people stopped bombing and killing other Nations & people EVERYWHERE.....

edit on 15-6-2012 by SLAYER69 because: (no reason given)

amazing how every great achievements is always certainly and predictably turned around by him to blame the US

Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL
We have finally become an interstellar species...we could have accomplished so much more if we did not keep bombing people in the middle east for no reason..

What does a scientific achievement has anything to do with Middle East issues?
How many hypothetical facts do you wish to back track to blame the US? By your posts, it seems everything that happens around the world is because of the US be it pre-existing (thousands of years) regional disputes in some small village in Africa or ME

Originally posted by nighthawk1954
I am waiting for all the nay Sayers: It was done in a Hollywood studio like the moon landings.

oh i'm sure we'll see few on ATS as usual. Most of them from another country

Originally posted by openyourmind1262
Canada= NO SPACE PROGRAM.

Umm... then what's this?

www.asc-csa.gc.ca...
en.wikipedia.org...

When you all get one, when you all piss away your tax $$$$$ in space & all things space related, come on back, because then you have a say.

Well I guess according to your absurd standards I do have a say then. Now I have some standards for you. Why don't you come back to this thread and discuss it like a mature adult and without insulting an entire nation of people with stupid stereotypes.

So i guess six billion is ok to piss away in space, with zero to show for it. You did a good job of showing where the $$$$ went, what about all the earth shattering "breakthroughs" in anything space related. Yea I have a problem with NASA, just as I have a problem with any "con-man" or con agency in this case..

Con?

Let me guess, you are one of those people that visit this site that feels we should live in piles of stone of our own design, living off of rainwater and anything we grow, and that's it. No advancement, no future. Sorry, but many people are of the mind that as a species, we'd like to advance. One day perhaps, we'll put behind us war, poverty, greed and the rest. But you have to start somewhere.

We have spent MORE than the entire HISTORY of NASA in TWO YEARS by our military. Somehow that's ok? Perhaps our priorities are a bit skewed. I'd rather spend our future advancing. Not building more bombs and missiles.

Not that I take much of the NASA hate here seriously. This site is rife with people who loathe the military, government, NASA, and the United States. The hate mongering agenda by many here makes me a bit sick to my stomach at times.