Unbelieving preachers get help to 'come out' as open atheists

reply to post by CLPrime


There is one question that cannot be answered, no matter how intelligent the discourse, without invoking the requirement to just "believe", or take it on faith (if you prefer).

Where is the observable, tangible, physical evidence of your deity ?

Until it can, then any given deity is simply an imaginary friend for adults.

Originally posted by Noncompatible
reply to post by CLPrime

 

Until it can, then any given deity is simply an imaginary friend for adults.

Perhaps childhood 'imaginary friends' are the vestigual remains of a mostly lost human ability...
...that dos not survive into adulthood.

Originally posted by troubleshooter

Originally posted by Noncompatible
reply to post by CLPrime

 

Until it can, then any given deity is simply an imaginary friend for adults.

Perhaps childhood 'imaginary friends' are the vestigual remains of a mostly lost human ability...
...that dos not survive into adulthood.

edit on 16/6/12 by troubleshooter because: (no reason given)

Nothing lost about it. It is called imagination. Nothing wrong with that, until you start refusing to accept that it IS imagination and persist in calling it real despite there being no evidence.

When that happens we call it religion.

reply to post by Noncompatible


You're essentially right. The best I can do, really, is to say that, since this is 2012, it's quite easy for you to claim a lack of evidence...but had you been at Jerusalem in around AD 30, the proof of God's existence (and his love and grace) would have been raised up for all to see, nailed to the cross, for you to tell him to his face that he doesn't exist.

The evidence hasn't changed...it's now just a lot easier for people to discard.

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by borntowatch

 

I didn't say we'll be held accountable for our sins. I said we wouldn't be condemned for our sins, but we would be held accountable for our work that we do (or don't do) in Christ. This is called "reward"...whether good or bad.

Oops my mistake.

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by Noncompatible

 

You're essentially right. The best I can do, really, is to say that, since this is 2012, it's quite easy for you to claim a lack of evidence...but had you been at Jerusalem in around AD 30, the proof of God's existence (and his love and grace) would have been raised up for all to see, nailed to the cross, for you to tell him to his face that he doesn't exist.

The evidence hasn't changed...it's now just a lot easier for people to discard.

The evidence has indeed not changed. There is no evidence of for what you described. For what you have described is an article of faith.
You cannot dismiss the lack of evidence as "my claim".
That is patently untrue, for there is plenty of evidence of the origins and precursors of your faith throughout the development of human civilization.

Yours is not the first deity, though probably the last, and not particularly original either. Just be thankful the Romans had a need and the Jewish splinter cult upon which your faith was based was in the right place at the right time to be utilized.

I like this thread.

It keeps all the dummies occupied.

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by borntowatch

 

So you believe that bull? That people will burn in hell for not knowing they done wrong? That must be a horrible. Considering that the oldest bibles are not much like the ones that the romans put out there. What if god said that you must eat earthworms to be saved, but the roman catholic church purged that verse? Must be scary as hell to think about.

Thats not what I said at all.
God doesnt tell us to eat earthworms, He tells us He loves us. He states if we remain in Him all our sins are forgiven.
People will burn in hell for not accepting forgiveness. Big difference.

reply to post by borntowatch


Hey, I read Ephesians as you suggested, borntowatch. What really struck me was this verse here:

“Wake up, sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”

Ephesians 5:14 NIV

What little faith I have in Christianity is based on a couple of times when I thought I saw Jesus. But it's hard to find anything I can believe in the Bible or theology, because basically I'm an atheist. But I like to believe in Jesus because seeing Him was just like this bible verse:

9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2:9-11 NIV

I don't see how anybody could see that and not believe in universal salvation. Nothing else is good enough for Jesus in my opinion.

I see words from a book written by men with no objective evidence to back them up.

There, you have evidence of someone who can read it and not believe in universal salvation.

Originally posted by CLPrime
had you been at Jerusalem in around AD 30, the proof of God's existence (and his love and grace) would have been raised up for all to see, nailed to the cross, for you to tell him to his face that he doesn't exist.

The evidence hasn't changed...it's now just a lot easier for people to discard.

There is no factual proof of any of this.

There was a real Jesus who was condemned to death for being a political dissident.

Stakes (poles) were used - - not crosses.

Originally posted by Annee

Originally posted by CLPrime
had you been at Jerusalem in around AD 30, the proof of God's existence (and his love and grace) would have been raised up for all to see, nailed to the cross, for you to tell him to his face that he doesn't exist.

The evidence hasn't changed...it's now just a lot easier for people to discard.

There is no factual proof of any of this.

There was a real Jesus who was condemned to death for being a political dissident.

Stakes (poles) were used - - not crosses.

And you know about the poles because you were there???
You know Annee I dont care if they used poles a pole or half a dozen crosses or an electric chair and lethal injection.
The colour of Christs skin and his hair style is not important to me either, his height or weight or if He was a leper as I have heard suggested.
Jesus died for my sins, thats good enough for me.

Originally posted by cloudyday
reply to post by borntowatch

 

Hey, I read Ephesians as you suggested, borntowatch. What really struck me was this verse here:

“Wake up, sleeper,
rise from the dead,
and Christ will shine on you.”

Ephesians 5:14 NIV

What little faith I have in Christianity is based on a couple of times when I thought I saw Jesus. But it's hard to find anything I can believe in the Bible or theology, because basically I'm an atheist. But I like to believe in Jesus because seeing Him was just like this bible verse:

9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2:9-11 NIV

I don't see how anybody could see that and not believe in universal salvation. Nothing else is good enough for Jesus in my opinion.

Ok this is Ephesians 1
11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

John 1:12-13; 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. (NKJV)

Did Abraham choose God? Did the apostle Paul have anything to do with His salvation? Did Jesus choose His disciples (hand picked), or did the disciples decide themselves to follow Christ?

Ephesians 1 5:6; 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.(NKJV)


Jesus is in Heaven, He is a man. I doubt you saw Him, not saying you didnt just doubt it myself.
If everyone was called to Gods Kingdom explain this verse
Mathew 7-13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

On judgement day every knee will bow every tongue will confess when Christs identity is revealed to the world, its worth noting what is said after that text you quoted

9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, Fear and trembling is indicative of seperation from God.

reply to post by Annee

There is no factual proof of any of this.

There was a real Jesus who was condemned to death for being a political dissident.

Stakes (poles) were used - - not crosses.

I trust that's eye-witness testimony on your part.

I'm glad you rebutted my lack of factual proof with your own abundance of proof. How could I have been so blind?

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by Annee

 

There is no factual proof of any of this.

There was a real Jesus who was condemned to death for being a political dissident.

Stakes (poles) were used - - not crosses.

I trust that's eye-witness testimony on your part.

There is real factual history from the time "mystical biblical Jesus" was supposed to be doing his thing. There are ZERO records of any factual proof by anyone living at the time of these events.

So yes - - there is eye-witness testimony of that period of time.

Originally posted by borntowatch...
If everyone was called to Gods Kingdom explain this verse
Mathew 7-13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
...

The narrow gate is the mercy of Jesus. We can't add things to our hope in the mercy of Jesus without making the mercy of Jesus less than 100% or our hope. So we need to hope only in the mercy of Jesus - none of this "I'm a saved and you're not" crap.

Luke 13:24
New International Version (NIV)
24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door,(A) because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.

reply to post by Annee


By saying "zero eye-witness testimony," you, of course, are discarding the testimony of John, who just happened to be standing by the cross while Jesus was being crucified. After all, John was either some mythical figure or he was in on the conspiracy to start a movement of self-giving and communal ministry and service.
You're also discarding the testimony of Mark, who traveled with Peter and wrote what the apostle preached. He didn't witness the crucifixion, but he was there for the rest of Jesus' ministry...only to then turn around and fake his resurrection in order to start the community of love and grace already mentioned...of course.

If you don't want to believe these obvious liars, there's always this, from Tacitus (AD 116):

"Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome."

Of course, this doesn't say he was raised from the dead, but it certainly testifies of Christ's existence. At least, that was the common belief as of AD 116.

Pliny, ca AD 112, wrote to Emperor Trajan:

"They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and innocent kind."

Such an evil cult.

Josephus, writing around AD 94, mentioned Jesus twice in his Antiquities of the Jews. Once, he recorded the death of James, the "brother Jesus the so-called Christ." And, just for the sake of being complete, on another occasion, he is claimed to have made more explicit reference to Christ:

"At this time there was Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising works, a teacher of people who with pleasure received the unusual. He stirred up both many Jews and many of Greeks. He was the Christ. And when Pilate condemned him to the cross, since he was accused by the first-rate men among us, those who had been living (him from) the first did not cease (to cause trouble), for he appeared to them on the third day, having life again, as the prophets of God had foretold these and countless other marvelous things about him. And until now the tribe of Christians, so named from him, is not extinct."

This, of course, is very likely a later Christian forgery (and I'm actually being serious with that...Origen, for example, never made any reference to it, when he really should have).

Now, is it really any wonder that no Roman records of Christ's crucifixion exist? How many times did Rome burn, destroying those records? None exist today. It's not just records of Jesus being crucified that don't exist...it's official records of everyone who was crucified. I guess no one was ever crucified by Rome.

There is evidence that Christ existed. What we don't have is secular evidence that he was raised from the dead. And are you really surprised by that? Can you imagine what would have happened in the Empire if the Roman officials had actually declared that Jesus had been raised from the dead after three days by the power of the God of the Jews?

reply to post by CLPrime


Let's not forget Mark.. as in JOHN MARK, the apostle Peter's amanuensis in Jerusalem. Mark is Peter's gospel. He should be considered an "eye-witness". Matthew as well. The only gospel writen who wasn't himself an eye-witness was the physician Luke. But he says the same and notes that he is interviewing eye-witnesses for his gospel account.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I mentioned Mark. I didn't mention Matthew or Luke, but, yes, they testify as well. I tend to gravitate toward John, though, since he was literally there for it all.