Unbelieving preachers get help to 'come out' as open atheists

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by jiggerj


Fine, fine, I give up. God kills and he's just wonderful. I love 'im. What a guy!
Oh, by the by? I received a message from god. He said he's going to kill you because Obama is an illegal president. Hey, don't ask me about the logic of it; god works in mysterious ways, right?

I bet you are the type who would let a murderer or paedophile or a criminal walk off scott free, justice is evil isnt it.

According to Jesus, you're a sinner. So, if you have a sin on your soul and die in a car crash before asking for forgiveness, you're goin' to hell. That's god's rule. Gotta lub em'!

Sorry, where does that come from.
You believe that based on what, thats absurd. I think many have pointed out your misconception of Christianity effectively
I dont fear God I love God, because He first loved me. No fear in Christ, your understandings are all twisted.
Jesus loved us so much He died for us not to be punished.
Thats the message, He died so we wont have to face the law that requires death.

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by jiggerj


Fine, fine, I give up. God kills and he's just wonderful. I love 'im. What a guy!
Oh, by the by? I received a message from god. He said he's going to kill you because Obama is an illegal president. Hey, don't ask me about the logic of it; god works in mysterious ways, right?

I bet you are the type who would let a murderer or paedophile or a criminal walk off scott free, justice is evil isnt it.

According to Jesus, you're a sinner. So, if you have a sin on your soul and die in a car crash before asking for forgiveness, you're goin' to hell. That's god's rule. Gotta lub em'!

Sorry, where does that come from.
You believe that based on what, thats absurd. I think many have pointed out your misconception of Christianity effectively
I dont fear God I love God, because He first loved me. No fear in Christ, your understandings are all twisted.
Jesus loved us so much He died for us not to be punished.
Thats the message, He died so we wont have to face the law that requires death.

edit on 15-6-2012 by borntowatch because: (no reason given)

So, in a moment of weakness a usually good man commits adultery, and dies in a car crash before repenting. Is he bound for heaven or hell?

reply to post by jiggerj


I think borntowatch's previous reply made it clear that such a mistake would not be punished in "Hell".

What people have forgotten is that, once we are in Christ, his blood covers all we do. That's not to say that we won't be held accountable for what we do in which we are willful and unrepentant, but it does mean that we won't be condemned for it.

But here's the fine line: at what point does willful and unrepentant sinning become a rejection of God's Grace? If we are saved through faith, then what kind of faith allows us to keep sinning like it's no big deal? Paul rebuked the Galatians for thinking they could save themselves by works, but James said that faith without works is dead. And that's the line. We can't save ourselves by our works, we are saved by faith, but our faith should cause us to do work in Christ. Any "Christian" who is content to simply go to church every Sunday, if they give even that much effort (the Archie Bunkers of Christendom), is most certainly not fulfilling the faith that saves them...and what sort of faith is it if it doesn't cause them to work and strive for Christ?

Ultimately, God is the judge. But, regardless, someone who truly has faith but messes up in the way you describe is most certainly not condemned. To say that such a person is condemned is to say that our weaknesses are stronger than God's strengths, when, in fact, we know that God's weaknesses are stronger than man's strengths (1 Corinthians 1:25).

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by jiggerj


Fine, fine, I give up. God kills and he's just wonderful. I love 'im. What a guy!
Oh, by the by? I received a message from god. He said he's going to kill you because Obama is an illegal president. Hey, don't ask me about the logic of it; god works in mysterious ways, right?

I bet you are the type who would let a murderer or paedophile or a criminal walk off scott free, justice is evil isnt it.

According to Jesus, you're a sinner. So, if you have a sin on your soul and die in a car crash before asking for forgiveness, you're goin' to hell. That's god's rule. Gotta lub em'!

Sorry, where does that come from.
You believe that based on what, thats absurd. I think many have pointed out your misconception of Christianity effectively
I dont fear God I love God, because He first loved me. No fear in Christ, your understandings are all twisted.
Jesus loved us so much He died for us not to be punished.
Thats the message, He died so we wont have to face the law that requires death.

edit on 15-6-2012 by borntowatch because: (no reason given)

So, in a moment of weakness a usually good man commits adultery, and dies in a car crash before repenting. Is he bound for heaven or hell?

edit on 6/16/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

You didn't ask me, but I have a theory:
If you look at the Adam and Eve story, Adam sinned and this caused him to hide from God. God didn't condemn Adam, but Adam condemned himself. Sin makes people hide from God. That's why Catholics and Orthodox have confession preceding Communion. This ceremony gives a person who wants to hide from God due to his/her sins an opportunity to confess his/her sins to God first. Then he/she can again draw close to Jesus in Communion. Jesus never turns His back on anybody for any reason in my opinion, because He created people and He has what seems to us like an irrational obsessive love for everybody.

(I'm probably not a good person to be presenting this theory, because an hour from now I'll probably be arguing the case for atheism on some other thread. )

reply to post by CLPrime


Correct, or as I point out to people:

Q: "How many of your sins were yet future when Christ hung on the cross?"
A: "All of them were."

Some people immediately take that as a liscense to sin, don't just take that and run with it. It's not, a truly born again soul doesn't desire to sin willfully.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


All sin is willful. If it wasn't willful, it wouldn't be sin in the first place. You have to know it is sin, for it to be sin. Sin is the willful denial to let another survive and thrive. If you deny another being, not only human, the chance to survive and thrive, you have sinned. That is how I look at it.

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by jiggerj


Fine, fine, I give up. God kills and he's just wonderful. I love 'im. What a guy!
Oh, by the by? I received a message from god. He said he's going to kill you because Obama is an illegal president. Hey, don't ask me about the logic of it; god works in mysterious ways, right?

I bet you are the type who would let a murderer or paedophile or a criminal walk off scott free, justice is evil isnt it.

According to Jesus, you're a sinner. So, if you have a sin on your soul and die in a car crash before asking for forgiveness, you're goin' to hell. That's god's rule. Gotta lub em'!

Sorry, where does that come from.
You believe that based on what, thats absurd. I think many have pointed out your misconception of Christianity effectively
I dont fear God I love God, because He first loved me. No fear in Christ, your understandings are all twisted.
Jesus loved us so much He died for us not to be punished.
Thats the message, He died so we wont have to face the law that requires death.

edit on 15-6-2012 by borntowatch because: (no reason given)

So, in a moment of weakness a usually good man commits adultery, and dies in a car crash before repenting. Is he bound for heaven or hell?

Even the most wretched sinner who has a relationship with Jesus will be saved, works account for nothing.
Jesus is like a owner of the most prestigious nightclub in town, but only His friends get in. He chooses based on His good works not our good works. Most good men wont be called in to His Kingdom because good men think they are good. Its about relationship with God
Not For God, we dont work for Him
Not under God, He doesnt want us broken
Not over God, we cant control God
Not from God, we dont take from God, he gives.
Nothing can separate a Christian from Gods love
Romans 8:39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below--indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ ..

That includes adultery, homosexuality and drunkenness and whatever sin

Sounds like a Catholic background.
If you read I recomend a Christian book called "With" by Sky Jethani.
It teaches that Jesus is after relationship not control, your comprehension of Christianity is skewed

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

All sin is willful. If it wasn't willful, it wouldn't be sin in the first place. You have to know it is sin, for it to be sin. Sin is the willful denial to let another survive and thrive. If you deny another being, not only human, the chance to survive and thrive, you have sinned. That is how I look at it.

No its not, we sin with out even knowing it
That is why Jesus said if we remain in Him he will cleanse us. Do you know every Old Testament law, what food is acceptable. Read the beatitudes recently. The law is impossible to keep.

Originally posted by cloudyday

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by jiggerj


Fine, fine, I give up. God kills and he's just wonderful. I love 'im. What a guy!
Oh, by the by? I received a message from god. He said he's going to kill you because Obama is an illegal president. Hey, don't ask me about the logic of it; god works in mysterious ways, right?

I bet you are the type who would let a murderer or paedophile or a criminal walk off scott free, justice is evil isnt it.

According to Jesus, you're a sinner. So, if you have a sin on your soul and die in a car crash before asking for forgiveness, you're goin' to hell. That's god's rule. Gotta lub em'!

Sorry, where does that come from.
You believe that based on what, thats absurd. I think many have pointed out your misconception of Christianity effectively
I dont fear God I love God, because He first loved me. No fear in Christ, your understandings are all twisted.
Jesus loved us so much He died for us not to be punished.
Thats the message, He died so we wont have to face the law that requires death.

edit on 15-6-2012 by borntowatch because: (no reason given)

So, in a moment of weakness a usually good man commits adultery, and dies in a car crash before repenting. Is he bound for heaven or hell?

edit on 6/16/2012 by jiggerj because: (no reason given)

You didn't ask me, but I have a theory:
If you look at the Adam and Eve story, Adam sinned and this caused him to hide from God. God didn't condemn Adam, but Adam condemned himself. Sin makes people hide from God. That's why Catholics and Orthodox have confession preceding Communion. This ceremony gives a person who wants to hide from God due to his/her sins an opportunity to confess his/her sins to God first. Then he/she can again draw close to Jesus in Communion. Jesus never turns His back on anybody for any reason in my opinion, because He created people and He has what seems to us like an irrational obsessive love for everybody.

(I'm probably not a good person to be presenting this theory, because an hour from now I'll probably be arguing the case for atheism on some other thread.

)

edit on 16-6-2012 by cloudyday because: (no reason given)

Go read Ephesians in the bible, its a small book.
It will turn everything you just wrote upside-down

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by jiggerj

 

I think borntowatch's previous reply made it clear that such a mistake would not be punished in "Hell".

What people have forgotten is that, once we are in Christ, his blood covers all we do. That's not to say that we won't be held accountable for what we do in which we are willful and unrepentant, but it does mean that we won't be condemned for it.

But here's the fine line: at what point does willful and unrepentant sinning become a rejection of God's Grace? If we are saved through faith, then what kind of faith allows us to keep sinning like it's no big deal? Paul rebuked the Galatians for thinking they could save themselves by works, but James said that faith without works is dead. And that's the line. We can't save ourselves by our works, we are saved by faith, but our faith should cause us to do work in Christ. Any "Christian" who is content to simply go to church every Sunday, if they give even that much effort (the Archie Bunkers of Christendom), is most certainly not fulfilling the faith that saves them...and what sort of faith is it if it doesn't cause them to work and strive for Christ?

Ultimately, God is the judge. But, regardless, someone who truly has faith but messes up in the way you describe is most certainly not condemned. To say that such a person is condemned is to say that our weaknesses are stronger than God's strengths, when, in fact, we know that God's weaknesses are stronger than man's strengths (1 Corinthians 1:25).

edit on 16-6-2012 by CLPrime because: (no reason given)

We wont be held accountable for our sin as Christians, none of it ever...
The bible states in Christ we are free from condemnation, works are all done in Spirit and we will be judged and rewarded on them. Though only God can encourage our works.

Christ died on the cross to ATONE for sin if you believe in Him as the Son of God. You then stand imputed righteous !! There is nothing left to judge you for.
THERE IS NO CONDEMNATION IN CHRIST JESUS. Romans 8:1.
You are a joint heir with Christ himself .
How could you be tried by Jesus?


Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
—John 5:24

reply to post by borntowatch


So you believe that bull#? That people will burn in hell for not knowing they done wrong? That must be a horrible. Considering that the oldest bibles are not much like the ones that the romans put out there. What if god said that you must eat earthworms to be saved, but the roman catholic church purged that verse? Must be scary as hell to think about.

reply to post by borntowatch


I didn't say we'll be held accountable for our sins. I said we wouldn't be condemned for our sins, but we would be held accountable for our work that we do (or don't do) in Christ. This is called "reward"...whether good or bad.

reply to post by TKDRL


Personally, I would refer you back to my posts here and here.

And might I add that English is a terrible language to read the Bible in. It leads to strange doctrine, like this Hell thing people keep talking about.

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by jiggerj

Originally posted by borntowatch

Originally posted by jiggerj


Fine, fine, I give up. God kills and he's just wonderful. I love 'im. What a guy!
Oh, by the by? I received a message from god. He said he's going to kill you because Obama is an illegal president. Hey, don't ask me about the logic of it; god works in mysterious ways, right?

I bet you are the type who would let a murderer or paedophile or a criminal walk off scott free, justice is evil isnt it.

According to Jesus, you're a sinner. So, if you have a sin on your soul and die in a car crash before asking for forgiveness, you're goin' to hell. That's god's rule. Gotta lub em'!

Sorry, where does that come from.
You believe that based on what, thats absurd. I think many have pointed out your misconception of Christianity effectively
I dont fear God I love God, because He first loved me. No fear in Christ, your understandings are all twisted.
Jesus loved us so much He died for us not to be punished.
Thats the message, He died so we wont have to face the law that requires death.

edit on 15-6-2012 by borntowatch because: (no reason given)

So, in a moment of weakness a usually good man commits adultery, and dies in a car crash before repenting. Is he bound for heaven or hell?

Even the most wretched sinner who has a relationship with Jesus will be saved, works account for nothing.
Jesus is like a owner of the most prestigious nightclub in town, but only His friends get in. He chooses based on His good works not our good works. Most good men wont be called in to His Kingdom because good men think they are good. Its about relationship with God
Not For God, we dont work for Him
Not under God, He doesnt want us broken
Not over God, we cant control God
Not from God, we dont take from God, he gives.
Nothing can separate a Christian from Gods love
Romans 8:39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below--indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ ..

That includes adultery, homosexuality and drunkenness and whatever sin

Sounds like a Catholic background.
If you read I recomend a Christian book called "With" by Sky Jethani.
It teaches that Jesus is after relationship not control, your comprehension of Christianity is skewed

So, the last rites are for tradition only?

reply to post by jiggerj


Basically the whole thread has descended into the final stand.

This:

reply to post by CLPrime


Your journey has been remarkably similar to my own. I intended to use science to explain all this "God nonsense" away with rational and quantifiable data sets. It certainly didnt turn out that way though

You should post more, havent seen you around for a bit.

On topic now, I think what this man is doing is a good idea. Essentially, he is attempting to give courage to those who are not being honest with themselves. Many are dishonest with themselves on their Paths through life, but it is in truly facing our demons, so to speak, that we can start marching forward. Most priests and pastors that have lost faith tend to project this onto those whom they claim to teach. By helping them come out, it can assist not only them, but their denominations. Lets just hope he doesnt go all evangelical. Lets also hope he doesnt let his dogma affect his ability to help others along their own way, at least not too deeply.

reply to post by borntowatch


I have seen you in many of the threads of this type. You do not live by the tenets of your proclaimed religion. In your mind, perhaps, but in your actions it doesnt appear so. It is by your fruits that you will be known, not some meaningless words that anyone can utter.

edit: To add. It is not just a matter of accepting Jesus, in your context. It is a matter of how you live your life beyond that point. Ones sins may be absolved, however, more sins can be accumulated. It is like a "true" apology versus a "fabricated" one. The former isnt just words, but is backed by action and a changing of ways. The former is made just to appease "X."

Originally posted by TKDRL
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

All sin is willful. If it wasn't willful, it wouldn't be sin in the first place. You have to know it is sin, for it to be sin. Sin is the willful denial to let another survive and thrive. If you deny another being, not only human, the chance to survive and thrive, you have sinned. That is how I look at it.

Your idea doesnt cover sins of omission and ignorance. The Greek implies habitiual unrepentant sin, not random screw ups.

Originally posted by borntowatch
...

Originally posted by cloudyday
You didn't ask me, but I have a theory:
If you look at the Adam and Eve story, Adam sinned and this caused him to hide from God. God didn't condemn Adam, but Adam condemned himself. Sin makes people hide from God. That's why Catholics and Orthodox have confession preceding Communion. This ceremony gives a person who wants to hide from God due to his/her sins an opportunity to confess his/her sins to God first. Then he/she can again draw close to Jesus in Communion. Jesus never turns His back on anybody for any reason in my opinion, because He created people and He has what seems to us like an irrational obsessive love for everybody.

(I'm probably not a good person to be presenting this theory, because an hour from now I'll probably be arguing the case for atheism on some other thread.

)

edit on 16-6-2012 by cloudyday because: (no reason given)

Go read Ephesians in the bible, its a small book.
It will turn everything you just wrote upside-down

Thanks, I'll take a look. Even if I don't see what you see, I'm sure it will do me some good.

Somewhat pertinent to this thread (or, at least, the thread this thread has become), I'm having a conversation with someone on Facebook at the moment about the nature of Hell. She's Pentecostal, so her view is especially interesting...to me, anyway.

Actually, she keeps side-stepping my responses.


I say: "I find it interesting that people who chose to separate themselves from God in this life are then "punished" by being separated from God for eternity."

And she says: "Yes, Jesus taught the people without force, it is a choice everyone can make. God did not create robots."

Then I say: "My point is, it's like trying to punish a kid by grounding them in their room...with their TV, video games, music, and computer. People are choosing to separate themselves from God, and the punishment for this is eternal separation from God? That would seem to be giving them exactly what they want...forever."

And she says: "God's offer is such a wonderful free gift. It is self reliant people who miss out. His people perish for lack of knowledge, knowing Him. God does not punish. There is consequences for choices."


Most atheists are quite used to this Christian tactic. We seem to have perfected it.
That's why it impressed me when I interviewed the minister I now preach with, when he turned out to be an intelligent guy who could actually answer questions. If more Christians had answers instead of ignorance and evasion tactics, then more people might be less inclined to brand the entire lot of us as morons. I might not always have all the answers, but at least I try.