I joined the Communist Party

Originally posted by toolgal462

Originally posted by brukernavn
reply to post by toolgal462

 

I am not arguing the definition of "true communism". I am only stating that communism in Russia has never occurred, due to the fact that there was never even an attempt to have the workers share ownership of the means of production. Just because somebody says that they are something does not make it true. Obama says that he is a Christian, but can you see it by the fruits of his labour?

I understand your argument and agree with it, up to a point....However, the vast majority of humans on this planet will think of the "USSR" or China when they hear the word "communism". I don't think that most people think of President Obama when they hear the word, "Christian". Do you follow me?

Either change the name to something new or you are fighting a losing battle.

reply to post by jcrockva


It would seem to me that once a governing body is established then the question would be what governs this body from becoming corrupt and becoming a body that chooses not to listen to the people as a whole....I myself would love to have a communist system that was only concerned for the welfare of the people....once we introduce a democratic peerage....would that in itself not become a dictatorship to decide what is for the common good of it's people....It is a very complex ideology...because say the people decide that it would be good for say every household to have a pool....but the the governing body says no(dictates) that this is not a common good for the people.....then who now wins.
I think that becomes the let down...also then as has been stated...will all the people willingly put in full effort to ensure the commune succeeds....If say you have a disabled person that cannot perform as well as an able bodied person(not saying that a disabled person cannot out perform an able bodied person as many in fact do). Now also you will have the inherent lazy person in a group that becomes lethargic so how does the governing body deal with this...it then again has to dictate.
I remember when i was a young last of the hippies where i grew up...and the commune set rules to be followed...and if the rules were not strictly adhered to then you were asked to leave the commune,,,well i did not last long in that situation.....as ones freedoms were now removed as dictated by the inner circle of the commune.
I think we would need to look at the Amish....Absolutely brilliant communal society...but could all of us live under these conditions....I am not so sure....They use the biblical teachings as a guide to their inner strength of their communal system...but it is the governing body which decides how the commune meets it needs and decides what is good for the whole of the commune.
Do these communes always survive...and are the people of the commune brainwashed from a early age to follow in the steps of their inner circle..So is that how the commune survives....It is yet again dictated too.
Now the concern for the OP is following this path to be frowned upon by the ones close to them....I think that is just Ignorance on the peoples part as to what communism is and can be....but it goes against human nature as we seem to be genetically programed to explore and discoverer new things...not to just stay content fat and happy in knowing we all live within a domain where advancement and change may actually be detrimental to a communal society...I am not sure about all this...i defer it over to yourself...maybe you can enlighten me on this as i think true communism could be an answer to many of societies ails.

reply to post by brukernavn


Excellent. No we are getting somewhere. So, in your new form of government, how would you do things differently than before? How would you avoid the same pitfalls these other attempts encountered?

Originally posted by toolgal462

Originally posted by brukernavn
reply to post by toolgal462

 

I am not arguing the definition of "true communism". I am only stating that communism in Russia has never occurred, due to the fact that there was never even an attempt to have the workers share ownership of the means of production. Just because somebody says that they are something does not make it true. Obama says that he is a Christian, but can you see it by the fruits of his labour?

I understand your argument and agree with it, up to a point....However, the vast majority of humans on this planet will think of the "USSR" or China when they hear the word "communism". I don't think that most people think of President Obama when they hear the word, "Christian". Do you follow me?

Either change the name to something new or you are fighting a losing battle.

OK. Yes, I follow you now. I agree that perhaps the name of the ideology ought to be changed. There is a very negative connotation with the word communism. I will also agree with you that dictators that have in the past been associated with the communist party are extremely oppressive and against personal freedoms.

I apologize for my first reply. I do not know what happened and it kept leaving my reply in the quoted tekst.

reply to post by toolgal462


The absolutely abhorrent "transition phase" needs to be reworked. No human, once in power, is willing to give up absolute power. It is human nature to keep what power one has.

reply to post by brukernavn


As has been stated previously ( I can't take credit for it). How is what you are envisioning any different than Capitalism? You are FREE within the Capitalist system to from Coops/Communities/Communes, etc...

reply to post by toolgal462


One of the biggest differences is that we are taxed to give hand-outs.

I think maybe people are looking at communism wrongly in a sense....In a capitalist society every thing is not in conformity...which means a whole lot of waste on the planets resources.... like manufacturing many many different types of screw drivers to do the same job....Why is that...it is in the means of making money....then we look at is this as a bad thing, if one can show an improvement in a system...then why not change...but the thing is, it is actually a waste of valuable planetary resources...so it goes before the communal body to decide what is best...but then if we take competition out of the picture...then we actually take away innovation...But we apply this to the capitalist system and we have corporate greed...we know there is better more fuel efficient ways of running a car...but do we use these systems...no because the big oil companies buy up the tech and suppress the tech....Now if one thinks for one second they are free in a democratic society...WRONG...we are ruled by apparent....listen to this....COMMUNAL LAWS...the laws that are made for society...the two systems are sooo closely linked that i don't think people realize the similarities of the two systems.....IF we break the Community law of a democratic society we are punished and if we break the community law in a communist society then we are punished.....we are only as free and the governing laws dictate....The illusion of freedom is hidden under the fallacy of democracy.

Originally posted by brukernavn
reply to post by toolgal462

 

One of the biggest differences is that we are taxed to give hand-outs.

So, under your new system, we are no longer taxed? Or we are no longer taxed to give handouts? By handouts, what do you mean? Are you referring to welfare?

Originally posted by plube
I think maybe people are looking at communism wrongly in a sense....In a capitalist society every thing is not in conformity...which means a whole lot of waste on the planets resources.... like manufacturing many many different types of screw drivers to do the same job....Why is that...it is in the means of making money....then we look at is this as a bad thing, if one can show an improvement in a system...then why not change...but the thing is, it is actually a waste of valuable planetary resources...so it goes before the communal body to decide what is best...but then if we take competition out of the picture...then we actually take away innovation...But we apply this to the capitalist system and we have corporate greed...we know there is better more fuel efficient ways of running a car...but do we use these systems...no because the big oil companies buy up the tech and suppress the tech....Now if one thinks for one second they are free in a democratic society...WRONG...we are ruled by apparent....listen to this....COMMUNAL LAWS...the laws that are made for society...the two systems are sooo closely linked that i don't think people realize the similarities of the two systems.....IF we break the Community law of a democratic society we are punished and if we break the community law in a communist society then we are punished.....we are only as free and the governing laws dictate....The illusion of freedom is hidden under the fallacy of democracy.

bravo! very insightful.

Originally posted by toolgal462
reply to post by brukernavn

 

As has been stated previously ( I can't take credit for it). How is what you are envisioning any different than Capitalism? You are FREE within the Capitalist system to from Coops/Communities/Communes, etc...

You might be free to do that, but in reality it's almost impossible for most people to do that.

Even though people do, there around 300 worker owned companies in the US.

The state system protects capitalism by demonizing any competition, working class socialism is a threat to the power and control of the capitalists. If people were taught from day one that there is a viable alternative to capitalism, and that worker owned companies actually do better, some people would naturally go in that direction.
Eventually socialism would be the major economic model and capitalism would be demonized in popular culture.

No violence is necessary.

About Worker-Owned Collectives

List of employee-owned companies

Frequently Asked Questions About Worker Cooperatives

How to Start an Employee-Owned Company

Originally posted by ANOK

Originally posted by toolgal462
reply to post by brukernavn

 

As has been stated previously ( I can't take credit for it). How is what you are envisioning any different than Capitalism? You are FREE within the Capitalist system to from Coops/Communities/Communes, etc...

You might be free to do that, but in reality it's almost impossible for most people to do that.

Even though people do, there around 11,000 worker owned companies in the US.

The state system protects capitalism by demonizing any competition, working class socialism is a threat to the power and control of the capitalists. If people were taught from day one that there is a viable alternative to capitalism, and that worker owned companies actually do better, some people would naturally go in that direction.
Eventually socialism would be the major economic model and capitalism would be demonized in popular culture.

No violence is necessary.

But then this system should all come about by 'choice', isn't that correct? So why hasn't it happened?

Originally posted by Adama
reply to post by jcrockva

 

WE ARE A REPUBLIC NOT A DEMOCRACY

America is a republic, and it is a liberal democracy.

We have representative democracy, and a social safety net provided by the state.

A liberal democracy may take various constitutional forms: it may be a constitutional republic, such as France, Germany, India, Ireland, Italy, or the United States...

Liberal democracy

Originally posted by toolgal462

But then this system should all come about by 'choice', isn't that correct? So why hasn't it happened?

Of course. You can't force socialism, or liberty, it has to be by choice.

I believe it could be done by simply educating people of the alternatives. If people truly understood socialism they would embrace it.

Originally posted by Adama
reply to post by jcrockva

 

You should endorse CAPITALISM! America is based on Capitalism! CAPITALISM = FREEDOM, LIBERTY!

Calm down, man. he already HAS endorsed capitalism, "until a better system comes along", earlier in the thread. Myself, I'm at the point that I don't care who rules the world, as long as they leave my 40 acres and my mule team alone. They can have the rest of it - I've seen it, and don't want it.

Originally posted by Adama
If we Americans lose the coming battle in November, people like this self avowed Communist (The OP) will be handing over the the names of all us patriots here who have been calling him out, and we will be executed by Obama himself!

edit on 15-6-2012 by Adama because: clarity

Get a grip, man! there IS no "battle" this coming November. Your "choice" is between Obamney and Obamney. It's like buying a pair of shoes, then getting home, opening the box, and discovering they are both for the left foot.


The OP isn't even American - why in the hell would he want to hand your name to anyone?

Originally posted by jcrockva

I also think there is some confusion between private property and private ownership in this thread. I think only extremely nationalistic communist would not allow for individuals to have personal possessions. This means that someone could own a house, personal land, cars, ect. The issue that socialist wish to address is who owns the means of production. They feel that the individuals who produce a product should own those products, the capital used to produce them, and most importantly all the value of their labor.

So they will leave me, my 40 acres, my mule team, and my house (and barn for the mules) alone to support ourselves, and not bother us? Since I own the land, and the mule team, which are my means of production, and I do the labor, the rest of the world has no say in it, or claim on my stuff? If I tell them to get the hell off of my place, are they under compulsion to do so?

If I hire a man to help with the farm, does he then automatically own half of everything I own?

Lastly i am not endorsing any of these ideas!!!!! This is just an attempt to clear up some confusion.

Don't sweat it - your politics and what you do or don't endorse are your own. I've no dog in that fight.

True communism has not, and will not EVER exist, except in a small community of people that know each other, I would say.

The reason is quite simple. Human greed. I want my property to be MINE, not property of the state, for the greater good.

Various strains or variations of leftism, marxism and communism think they can somehow create a utopia that defies human nature. And yet people are often prevented, tortured or shot trying to leave these "paradises".

Granted, these are offshoots of a true communist model.

I will be keeping my property, my belongings and my guns. They aren't "for the greater good".

Originally posted by Adama

Originally posted by brukernavn

Originally posted by Adama
reply to post by brukernavn

 

Read Obama's book, he tells all about his communist Muslim upbringing.

Communism and Islam coincide with each other? Link please.

www.wnd.com...

Russia has long supported Islamist regimes.

Kinda screwed up that whole "support" thing in Afghanistan, didn't they? Who knew that replacing an islamist regime with a Socialist one was classified as "support"...

You may not have gotten the memo yet, but Russia lost it's communism back around 1990... I think they're still looking to see if it fell into the bottom of the closet...

commies 21

capitalists 18


im keeping score.