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How The United States Was Destroyed.

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posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 05:33 AM
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reply to post by Germanicus
 


I like libertarian capitalism mainly.But I also like Libertarian socialism of the Bakunin type.No statism for me.I have read Communist manifesto and works of Ludwig Von Mises.




posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 05:46 AM
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Originally posted by ludwigvonmises003
reply to post by Germanicus
 


I like libertarian capitalism mainly.But I also like Libertarian socialism of the Bakunin type.No statism for me.I have read Communist manifesto and works of Ludwig Von Mises.





I have read the Communist Manifesto. I think it is arrogant and aggressive. It is an appeal to the weak in my opinion and unrealistic as nice as it all sounds.

Anarchy is good. I like Libertarian Socialism too.

I actually prefer a form of National Socialism or State Capitalism. Like a hybrid.

And no, I quoted Ludwig Von Mises the other day but I have not read any of his stuff really. I will. Thanks



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 05:49 AM
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reply to post by Germanicus
 


State capitalism or national socialism is statism.In such systems if leaders are bad then the system is too.
Thats why I prefer libertarianism.



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 06:07 AM
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Originally posted by ludwigvonmises003
reply to post by Germanicus
 


State capitalism or national socialism is statism.In such systems if leaders are bad then the system is too.
Thats why I prefer libertarianism.



I agree. If the leader is bad they will not work. Hitler proved that. The Chinese are doing a pretty good job with State Capitalism though.

And deep down I would prefer libertarian socialism in a way. I just do not see us jumping from capitalism to something like Libertarian Socialism. That is why I like th hybrids.

If you have read anything on the Stalinist Two Statge Revolution you see that my thinking is similar. The basic idea is that to get to true planned economy, a nation must first establish the necessary commodity market economy and let it fully develop.

My idea is that to transition from capitalism to something like Anarchy, a nation must ease in by adopting a hybrid of socialism and capitalism similar to Chinas State capitalism. Just a theory.

I think austerity will open people to knew ideas though. Its a good thing in a way.
edit on 11-6-2012 by Germanicus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 09:06 AM
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reply to post by Germanicus
 


Originally posted by Germanicus
Actually, I will laugh at guys like you. People like you will deserve everything they get. I just feel sorry for the americans that can actually see what is happening.

I bet you are middleclass and not too concerned because you think austerity will only hurt the poor. Wrong. Its gonna hurt you bad.

I'm not American. We actually already had our share of austerity in Germany... at the right time, for the right duration and in the correct dose. As it's supposed to be.


Originally posted by Germanicus
And socialism is not unproven. Germany is not 'socialist' in a strict sense but they have an efficient government and run their country much better than America.

The Federal Republic of Germany is not socialist, not even in a wide sense.
Former East-Germany was socialist and look how great that worked out.
This is why Germany is successful: LINK ... nothing to do with socialism.


reply to post by hawkiye
 

How the end of this €Z-madness will turn out remains to be seen... don't write us off just yet.
edit on 11-6-2012 by ColCurious because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 09:07 AM
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reply to post by beezzer
 



The idea[s] of freedom, liberty, individuality, personal responsibility are known now.

the above ideas have been around for quite awhile before the US even existed

also the US has no sort of monopoly on them

and they no longer require "america"'s services,hence the coming pink slip and layoff...


don't you love corporate [klepto] capitalism?



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 09:14 AM
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reply to post by ColCurious
 





Former East-Germany was and look how great that worked out.


I think Germany is far more socialistic than America. Compare social programs for example And look at China. It is socialistic. State capitalism is working better than anything. There are other nations that run socialist goverments as well. Socialism is not a proven failure.

And if you live in Germany Im not surprised you are in favour of Austerity. I can just imagine the propaganda that you are getting about Greece,. Your country is going to be the most hated in Europe very soon if it isnt already.

The IMF, The United States and Germany is where the rage is going to be directed.
edit on 11-6-2012 by Germanicus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 09:27 AM
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reply to post by Germanicus
 

My stance on austerity has nothing to do with Greece.
Austerity is a core principle of german conservatism and part of our culture.
Ever heard of the "boring German frugality", "Germanic thrift" or "Teutonic austerity"?
In fact, Greece is an excellent example for ill-considered austerity.


Originally posted by Germanicus
Your country is going to be the most hated in Europe very soon if it isnt already.

*Yawn* What else is new?
edit on 11-6-2012 by ColCurious because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 09:34 AM
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reply to post by Germanicus
 





Now the United States is a mess. It is the fault of the American people? It is pathetic that so few of us seem to have any sympathy for the Greeks. Its pretty obvious the people in the United States will be in the same situation as Greece.


I have sympathy for greece, but i'm not the one who did the stealing. The thieves are the ruling elite who grind the rest of us peasants into the dirt. We still have a feudal system, it's always been there lying under the surface, cleverly hid by such notions like voting, where they fool the populace into thinking they have any real power, when it's the electoral college run by the elite that has the power.

There's nothing we can do, not a thing but sit back and hope it gets better but knowing it will not.



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 09:35 AM
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Originally posted by beezzer
Germanicus, puddin', stop fear mongering.
*sheesh*

America will never be destroyed. Kind of like trying to put the toothpaste back into the tube.
It won't work.

The idea of freedom, liberty, individuality, personal responsibility are known now.

You can try to sell your brand of socialism, but I don't think you'll get many buyers.

The great thing about the American capitalistic system is that it will auto-correct itself.

It just takes time.



I generally agree, Beezzer. Socialism(Collectivism) is the ultimate enemy of a free people and it absolutely ensures the dominance of an elite, despite religious devotion that makes otherwise intelligent people believe differently.
However, historically speaking, the US is not assured of anything.
I agree that if allowed to do so, the system will correct itself. If the "progressives" have their way, though, our sovereignty will not be around much longer.

That being said, if we don't change our debt addicted ways, the entire system will collapse. Of the many factions that arise, hopefully the true free market capitalists are in that number.

BTW, if you hate the middle class and poor and want to create a harsher existence for them, you might support higher corporate taxes.
It's called "overhead" and it equates to proportionately higher prices for the consumer. Not so bad if you're rich. If poor or struggling to stay in the middle class? Corporate taxes hurt you.

Want to hurt the corporations? Take away their source of empowerment: large centralized government.
edit on 11-6-2012 by pierregustavetoutant because: spelling



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 09:36 AM
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reply to post by Germanicus
 


Public works programmes are only ever a short term, temporary solution. They are unsustainable in the long run, as even China is currently finding out........



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 09:41 AM
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Originally posted by ColCurious
reply to post by Germanicus
 

My stance on austerity has nothing to do with Greece.
Austerity is a core principle of german conservatism and part of our culture.
Ever heard of the "boring German frugality", "Germanic thrift" or "Teutonic austerity"?
In fact, Greece is an excellent example for ill-considered austerity.


Originally posted by Germanicus
Your country is going to be the most hated in Europe very soon if it isnt already.

*Yawn* What else is new?
edit on 11-6-2012 by ColCurious because: (no reason given)


Well how old are you? If I was Greece I would declare war on your country. If I was Spain, Portugal.......... soon France. your Government are traitors to the people. so yeah,it might be some new stiuff in the future.

And your idea of 'austerity' and what is being forced on the Greeks are two different things and you know it.



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 09:42 AM
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Originally posted by Flavian
reply to post by Germanicus
 


Public works programmes are only ever a short term, temporary solution. They are unsustainable in the long run, as even China is currently finding out........


Public Works are only ever short term. They have generally have an end. You can only build a dam until its finished.

Do you know what a Public Works is?



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 09:46 AM
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reply to post by Germanicus
 


But Greece created the majority of it's problems. Yes, it was sold a pup, that isn't in doubt. However, it has consistently failed to take more than it spends - what other eventual outcome could there have been in this situation? Greece has nothing to fall back on either - no oil / gas industry to save the day, no large manufacturing base, etc. The very least they should have done is collect the proper taxes but they couldn't even be bothered to do that. Some people in Greece have, frankly, condemned their nation to poverty by failing to do their jobs properly and by engaging in large scale corruption. Corruption may seem to be a strong choice of words but what else can you call it? Someone was getting kick backs somewhere for taking less tax money and what is that but corruption?

Germany is not to blame for the problems in Greece. In fact, if you actually want a nation to blame for the fiasco in Greece (apart from the Greeks themselves) then blame France as it was France that pushed for the Euro and France that pushed for financial regulations to be dropped.

ETA:

Sorry for going off topic with a Euro rant........
edit on 11-6-2012 by Flavian because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 09:53 AM
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reply to post by Germanicus
 


Originally posted by Germanicus
Well how old are you?

Relevance?


Originally posted by Germanicus
If I was Greece I would declare war on your country.

Greece should "declare war" (as in: quit the €Z and tell them to shove it...) on the Troika and their own corrupted government, not Germany.


Originally posted by Germanicus
[...] your Government are traitors to the people.

Parts of them are acting in a traitorous way to the people and our constitution, yes.


Originally posted by Germanicus
And your idea of 'austerity' and what is being forced on the Greeks are two different things and you know it.

True. I agree and I told you so earlier.
edit on 11-6-2012 by ColCurious because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 10:07 AM
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reply to post by Flavian
 





Some people in Greece have, frankly, condemned their nation to poverty


And you are fine with this arent you. That honestly makes me sick. No offense.

And all that rambling equates to is that you know very well that it is not the fault of the Greeks, but you do not care. Cant you see that the same thing will happen where you live?

And it is not France to blame. It is the United states. Who do you think controls these puppet governments? The US actaully had the CIA running things in Greece for years under the drachma before the puppet governments.

The Greeks want out. The US and Germany will not let them go.

Capitalism is dead. where is the money? Where is it going to come from? You wanna live like a slave? [SNIP] that. The BRICS are the future. Who are we keeping this capitalist trainwreck together for? Who? America. They are on top. They hold the Reserve Currency. They are ripping us off. They have no right to the Reserve currency. The Greeks are not scared of exiting the Empire. Why should they be when the Empire has become a pathetic loser of an Empire that has no money?

And if you read the OP you would see that the GGreek Government is sitting on considerable assets that are to be used for repayment. Its a scam. The Greeks know it.

I have been waiting a long time for Western nations to jump ship from America. Now that one is trying, the Empire will not let it go. The empire is dead. If you are from England I hope you guys stick with America til the end and become third world together.

edit on 11-6-2012 by Germanicus because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 10:10 AM
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reply to post by Germanicus
 


Or lots of empty business parks and empty cities like China is doing.

Public Works projects can be useful if your country is not in tens of trillions in debt.
But even programs like the WPA, CCC, etc during the Great Depression (before the US was unsustainable) were meant to be very short term.
I believe the poster you are condescending to meant that the use of Public Works as a longterm policy is unsustainable and destructive and he/she is absolutely correct.
Any society that relies on the use of public entities for its economy to stay afloat is a doomed society.
That doesn't mean there can be no limited regulation and very limited administrative authority, and of course you need a military so other societies can't get their hands on it.
It just means that collectivism and a healthy economy are mutually exclusive.



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 10:11 AM
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reply to post by ColCurious
 


Well, Im just saying that people of our time do not know real hate. We have lived a nice life. Our parents have lived nice lives. The world seems to be getting to be like it was before WW2. I think tempers will flare in the West like we have not known. i can see the whole of Europe turning on Greece if it wants to continue to back the US/IMF. War is maybe a stretch but still, I wouldnt want to be German right now.



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by pierregustavetoutant
reply to post by Germanicus
 


Or lots of empty business parks and empty cities like China is doing.

Public Works projects can be useful if your country is not in tens of trillions in debt.
But even programs like the WPA, CCC, etc during the Great Depression (before the US was unsustainable) were meant to be very short term.
I believe the poster you are condescending to meant that the use of Public Works as a longterm policy is unsustainable and destructive and he/she is absolutely correct.
Any society that relies on the use of public entities for its economy to stay afloat is a doomed society.
That doesn't mean there can be no limited regulation and very limited administrative authority, and of course you need a military so other societies can't get their hands on it.
It just means that collectivism and a healthy economy are mutually exclusive.


i did not suggest them as a long term solution. I assumed nobody would think I did because Public works are short term by nature. So I assume the guy is being condescending to me. Or [SNIP]ing with me.

And I love to hear people go on about the 'ghost Cities' of China. State capitalism works so well that you guys will grasp at anything to comfort yourselves.

China and the BRICS nations are going to take over. look at the United States. It cant be fixed. And who wants to wait?

State Capitalism is a miracle. No other nation has risen like China has under State Capitalism. The next GFC is the end of capitalism.



posted on Jun, 11 2012 @ 10:46 AM
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Originally posted by hawkiye
What was done to Native Americans was wrong no doubt. No one said we were perfect however the American constitution set the bar for freedom and was a major leap forward from the feudal systems of Europe were everyone was a slave to the monarch (and black slaves who were in Europe also) and was a goal to strive for. We still have not reached the pinnacle and now have regressed however it is still the foundation of freedom and American prosperity and most nations of Europe have adopted some aspects of it.


You say you have studied history for years yet your posts contradict you.

Every heard of the Magna Carter(1225,"the greatest constitutional document of all times – the foundation of the freedom of the individual against the arbitrary authority of the despot")
or the original English bill (1689)of rights which inspired the american bill of rights(1789)?

During WW2 Australia hated the Americans in there ports. For a few reasons one of the biggest gripes was the fact that every time the Australians won a victory on there own americans called it a american and allied victory and when the americans won a battle on there own its was a american victory.
Reminds me when ever someone talks to me about how the americans won Independence from the english. If i mention how much help the dutch, spainish and the french gave. The response i get is that you guys actually didn't need any help or it was minor help at best.
Its just the arrogance that gets me and sadly the rest of the world view it that way too.
edit on 11-6-2012 by Bixxi3 because: (no reason given)



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