Before The Big Bang

reply to post by LilDudeissocool


It's most certainly not impossible. A 4-dimensional space extending out linearly to infinity in all directions is the only logical form of "space."

reply to post by CLPrime


I dont get how/why in infinite space the universe consolidated isolated in one comparatively small area?

i dont get why there couldnt be other isolated energetic universes 23894839275873289478324239423 light years west of the edge of our universe?

I dont get what the infinite space is made of? and where physical energy came from?

reply to post by ImaFungi


The V is the ink that represents the observable universe and the paper represents space which is also all of time. The paper would have to also be folded around to complete the analogy that I failed to mention. It forms an infinity symbol btw.

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by LilDudeissocool

 

It's most certainly not impossible. A 4-dimensional space extending out linearly to infinity in all directions is the only logical form of "space."

It's a loop. You can't draw a straight line forever. It can't be done. Only within abstract fantasy does it exist like writing zeros forever, but you really actually cannot write zeros forever.

Originally posted by LilDudeissocool

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by LilDudeissocool

 

It's most certainly not impossible. A 4-dimensional space extending out linearly to infinity in all directions is the only logical form of "space."

It's a loop. You can't draw a straight line forever. It can't be done. Only within abstract fantasy does it exist like writing zeros forever, but you really actually cannot write zeros forever.

What your talking about is a closed universe as humans we like the thought of this however it appears the universe doesnt agree with us.Wmap shows the universe is the infinite flat model meaning no curvature but is indeed flat in all directions.So you can draw a straight line forever this is why cosmology is in turmoil we found out a couple of things that make us realize the big bang wasnt the beginning like we thought.

PS to CLPrime.

In employing my copier analogy further, if a scanner was designed as a drum, and the document was a band of paper with the infinity symbol printed on it like this >< cutting off the ( ) at the ends that are needed for being drawn on a piece of paper with four boarders you then are able to represent what space/time is in terms of being infinite within a three dimensional context. The crossover point is the Big Bang containing all energy and matter of the observable universe which is represented by simply the ink on the drum of paper. The paper is all of space and time which basically in complete forth dimensional terms are one in the same.


Space/time is an ocean. Frame of references are simply like energy waves moving through that ocean. Waves on an actual ocean on Earth made of water have waves that can and do move at different rates and sometimes catch up to one another creating giant waves just as how time dilation functions in a way.
This is why time and space are one in the same, but we have a hard time understanding this concept as we only can think in terms of one single column of water so to speak because we some how forget there has to be a lager body of water, a full context, for that column of water to exist in. If the planet Earth was completely submerged in water then the such a water Earth could also represent a drum of paper with a V printed on it. The ocean could not extent linear. The Universe and the space/time continuum that it exists in is not linear. Abstract math claims it is, and abstract math is a product of the human imagination and therefore does not exist anywhere physically; not in the past, present nor future or its total.

Originally posted by dragonridr

Originally posted by LilDudeissocool

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by LilDudeissocool

 

It's most certainly not impossible. A 4-dimensional space extending out linearly to infinity in all directions is the only logical form of "space."

It's a loop. You can't draw a straight line forever. It can't be done. Only within abstract fantasy does it exist like writing zeros forever, but you really actually cannot write zeros forever.

What your talking about is a closed universe as humans we like the thought of this however it appears the universe doesnt agree with us.Wmap shows the universe is the infinite flat model meaning no curvature but is indeed flat in all directions.So you can draw a straight line forever this is why cosmology is in turmoil we found out a couple of things that make us realize the big bang wasnt the beginning like we thought.

If I get what you are saying, yes, I think the complete forth dimension, past, present and future is a closed system making 3D a closed system.

Speaking to what you may think, and I don't mean this in any disrespect, but it's like thinking the Earth is flat when basing the assessment on visually inspection in all visible linear directions. The Earth is curved, and completes around making a sphere of course just like the space/time continuum moving across the entire fourth dimension is joined at its beginning and end, if you were to take the Earth and pushed one side into the other as you can do with an inflatable ball. The poles can be touching. In the complete forth dimension the poles of beginning and end touch each other. They are one in the same just like space and time. The substance the sphere of the fourth dimension is constructed with.

Originally posted by LilDudeissocool

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by LilDudeissocool

 

It's most certainly not impossible. A 4-dimensional space extending out linearly to infinity in all directions is the only logical form of "space."

It's a loop. You can't draw a straight line forever. It can't be done. Only within abstract fantasy does it exist like writing zeros forever, but you really actually cannot write zeros forever.

A infinite dimension can house them all. Even a constructed 4d manifold. As soon as he tels us what that 4 d manifold is made up of, he will be wrong. Because a infinite space dosent have any specific reference points or energy.

Even a x,y,z graph can go on for ever and illustrate infinite space. Like a 4 d manifold can.

reply to post by LilDudeissocool


Time can not exist with out space. it needs somewhere to happen. If this is not true explain how it can

Originally posted by spy66

Originally posted by LilDudeissocool

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by LilDudeissocool

 

It's most certainly not impossible. A 4-dimensional space extending out linearly to infinity in all directions is the only logical form of "space."

It's a loop. You can't draw a straight line forever. It can't be done. Only within abstract fantasy does it exist like writing zeros forever, but you really actually cannot write zeros forever.

A infinite dimension can house them all. Even a constructed 4d manifold. As soon as he tels us what that 4 d manifold is made up of, he will be wrong. Because a infinite space dosent have any specific reference points, unless we specify them manually. But then the manifold wont be infinite.

Even a x,y,z graph can go on for ever.and illustrate infinite space.

edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)

The manifold is elliptical, or in terms I explained above with a deflated ball where you depress one half inside the other to where the polls touch, and think of the two poles, beginning and end being one in the same. This means there is a specific specific reference point/s. The location in time when the primeval atom existed within its specific frame of reference, zero time, and where being the center of the Universe.


The linear concept is just abstract gobbledygook like chaos theory, randomness.

Originally posted by surewhynot
reply to post by LilDudeissocool

 

Time can not exist with out space. it needs somewhere to happen. If this is not true explain how it can

You have it right. They are both mutually inclusive, and within the context of the complete forth dimension they are one in the same.

reply to post by LilDudeissocool


There are different types of 4 d manifolds. They are not all like the one you describe.

A example:
In a flat universe the fabric of a 4 d manifold will be stretched by a finite mass. But without that finite mass being present. The manifold wont stretch, bend or move. It will be stationary.

This basically tells us that your description of a manifold wont bend either without a mass of some sort present.


But. In reality the fabric wont stretch because energy and matter comes from the infinite. It will be smack in the middle. So, illustrating gravity by having a mass on top of a flat fabric is wrong. People will get the wrong idea by that illustration.

Because space dosent act like: If you have a bucket of water and drop a tennis ball into it, were the tennis ball pushes the water away because the tennis ball sinks in. Because, if so, that tells us that mass comes from somewhere else than the infinite dimension, and is just put into place from out side the infinite. And that is not possible.

reply to post by LilDudeissocool


"The manifold is elliptical, or in terms I explained above with a deflated ball where you depress one half inside the other to where the polls touch, and think of the two poles, beginning and end being one in the same."

why?

and is this why you do not believe the universe is flat? because you believe all energy was distributed semi evenly from a central point,, and infinite lines going outwards from a central point would create a spherical shape?

To save my sanity, i'm done debating fanciful space-time-gravity ouroboroses and dimensional ignorance.
ChaoticOrder, if/when you add more of your own thoughts to this thread, I'll reply. I'm just getting a headache from all the nonsense.

reply to post by spy66


Do you know where the idea of infinity originated? The Bible! That's right, an abstract tool to describe to ancients that were unable to comprehend a supreme deity :where the deity came from :how long the deity existed :how much the deity knew :how much power the deity holds. That was translated into secular terms by which you could theoretically dream up zeros forever. Well guess what? There are these things called algorithms. Numbers repeat, and systems repeat within larger systems of patterns. Time and space are no different.

What are the odds of you and I being alive on Earth right now as fully conscious physical beings in the entire potential timeline of the Universe? You and I have a better chance of winning the Mega Millions jackpot several times in a row. We are no conscious between death and birth so we perceive being alive continuously.

If people want to be intellectually lazy and just add zeros, fine, but I know its not the truth because thinking in terms of space and time being flat and linear just simply does not add up unless the fail safe default is utilized, "It's infinite." That is infantile! The concept of infinity is infantile. It's lazy! baby want a bottle lazy laying in a crib with the security blanket of randomness and everything that uses the abstract "Infinity."

reply to post by ImaFungi


Yes, and it all folds back on itself in a closed perpetual state, or system rather.

Originally posted by LilDudeissocool

Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by LilDudeissocool

 

Moving/changing energy doesn't create space, and I still have no clue what you're trying to say about gravity creating time. Gravity is subject to time like everything else. And movement isn't indicative of the passage of time, 'cause an object can stop moving altogether and time will still keep going. Besides, these particles in a super-stretched universe...they're still moving at the speed of light. Even if you equate movement with time, they're all moving at the same constant speed, so time is still unchanged.

Please cite me an example where something has been stopped moving across space?

CLPrime, have you cited me an example yet? You haven't! There are none to cite. So when claiming others are posting nonsense please first back up what you are claiming with reason. Not citing intellectually lazy work of the academic establishment that are addicted to infinite zeros to make their case.

reply to post by LilDudeissocool


I did reply. You must have missed it.

Originally posted by LilDudeissocool
reply to post by ImaFungi

 

Yes, and it all folds back on itself in a closed perpetual state, or system rather.

edit on 4-6-2012 by LilDudeissocool because: (no reason given)

what would cause all the spread energy at the edges of the universe,,,,,, very far from a common center,,,,, to come hurtling back towards the center?

reply to post by LilDudeissocool


Well i can name one, it is theorised a white hole is a stationary object in space,