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Before The Big Bang

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posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 02:28 PM
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reply to post by dragonridr
 


"Heres something strange do you remember how religions said we were at the center of the universe well from an observational standpoint they were right."


to me thats like a mosquito saying its in the exact center of the atlantic ocean.




posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 03:55 PM
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reply to post by ChaoticOrder
 


He's actually describing my view. I've mentioned several times that I believe the universe began infinite and empty, and that the vacuum energy was spontaneously released, causing expansion and the formation of matter. This expansion, then, is still being driven by the energy left in what vacuum remains (which is a majority of the universe).

He and I are on the same page as far as the expansion of the universe is concerned.



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 03:58 PM
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reply to post by ChaoticOrder
 




In this video he is confirming something i have been saying all along. He is saying "if" you put energy into a empty space you will get a reaction "expansion". Before that nothing is happening to the empty space.

In other words: you need to put something in to it.

I also have problems following if he is talking about the universe of matter and energy or the empty space.
especially when he is talking about the microwave background hemisphere. Because the space between earth to the microwave background hemisphere is is not empty space.



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by LilDudeissocool
 


Interesting thread... what you explain is how mass, velocity and time are deeply interrelated... but I still don't see a reason for concluding gravity creates time. The mass gets larger as you go faster, producing more gravity, and that might cause gravity time dilation as you say... you even said yourself for any object which could reach the speed of light time would stop, which is counter-intuitive if one is to accept your theory that gravity creates time, because more gravity should mean more time. This implies mass and the velocity of any mass interact with space-time in a very observable way, but it does not imply they create space-time. It just implies mass can alter space-time... and that's only logical if one is to assume mass is made from braided space-time as in LQG theory.
edit on 4-6-2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)


I'll first start by clarifying sometimes state the phrase "creates time." That's an old habit of mine. I mean, "moving across time." This habit of mine I developed when I thought of time as process of creation as energy and matter moves across space. I now realize that matter and energy move across the fabric of the 4th dimension a complete tapestry of all time from beginning to end, or starting point rather as it may very well be an elliptical, a circuit that can be traveled within a 3D frame of reference.

Regarding your thoughts on my being "counter-intuitive" in my reasoning, I'll rephrase my inquiring into my curiosity of the two time dilation dynamics, and if there is any connections between the two that can be correlated.


Gravitational time dilation is the effect of time passing at different rates in regions of different gravitational potential; the lower the gravitational potential (the closer the clock is to the source of gravitation), the more slowly time passes
en.wikipedia.org... That means time is passing more slowly, and if there was enough gravity time could theoretically stop completely. The same is true with increase velocity, and with that mass is gained thus more gravity. Velocity creates gravity, are they mutually inclusive when it comes to time dilation? What is it that affects time, Could it be simply be gravity which is the determining factor? Velocity across space allows matter to depress an ever larger indentation in the fabric of space with increase of velocity without adding matter, and time dilation occurs according to scale. If matter is added to other matter without increasing velocity a depression in the fabric of space is increased, and gravitational time dilation occurs according to scale. Do you see any correlating factors between the two affecting time dilation?



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 04:03 PM
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reply to post by spy66
 


Microwave background hemisphere? Technically, there is no such thing. The CMB is pervasive throughout all of space, it's not just a hemisphere (or even a sphere, for that matter).

Professor Krauss is saying that the energy found in the quantum vacuum causes an expansion of space - that is, it has negative pressure, which precisely mimics the cosmological constant. Matter or empty space, it doesn't matter...vacuum energy will cause space to expand. The only matter will do is locally counteract that expansion with its own gravity.



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 04:08 PM
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Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by spy66
 


Microwave background hemisphere? Technically, there is no such thing. The CMB is pervasive throughout all of space, it's not just a hemisphere (or even a sphere, for that matter).

Professor Krauss is saying that the energy found in the quantum vacuum causes an expansion of space - that is, it has negative pressure, which precisely mimics the cosmological constant. Matter or empty space, it doesn't matter...vacuum energy will cause space to expand. The only matter will do is locally counteract that expansion with its own gravity.


I dont see how that is possible. He must mean that the energy found in the quantum vacuum is doing the expanding. Because it cant push a empty infinite space anywhere. There is nothing there for the vacuum to move/push. And to be able to observe or read that. He must get some numbers from the vacuum and not the empty infinite space.
edit on 27.06.08 by spy66 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 04:08 PM
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reply to post by ChaoticOrder
 


The only "pattern" within the CMB that indicates it originated from a single point is the fact that it is homogeneous and isotropic in all directions. This is equally explained by a homogeneous and isotropic (i.e., uniform) release of energy from the vacuum.



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 04:10 PM
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reply to post by spy66
 


Vacuum energy causes space to expand the same way gravity warps space. Space-time is a maleable 4-dimensional manifold. The negative pressure of vacuum energy causes it to expand.

Do you know what a metric is?



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 04:16 PM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


Ah, but photons do have mass. They have relativistic mass (mass they gain by travelling at the speed of light). That mass is given by

m = E/c² = hf/c² = h/cλ

What photons don't have is rest mass.

We know this is true because the photon mass causes high concentrations of them to exert pressure on things like sails. You can move a sailboat with a high-enough intensity light.



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 04:21 PM
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Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by spy66
 


Vacuum energy causes space to expand the same way gravity warps space. Space-time is a maleable 4-dimensional manifold. The negative pressure of vacuum energy causes it to expand.

Do you know what a metric is?


If your are talking about a 4 dimensional manifold. Your talking about a finite. Not interested: because it is not Thee infinite space.
Its a finite space. It hasn't always existed, it is formed and it takes up space that is why it can expand.



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 04:29 PM
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Originally posted by spy66

If your are talking about a 4 dimensional manifold.


Did I stutter?
That's what I said...a 4 dimensional manifold.

A 4-dimensional manifold is infinite in all 4 dimensions.



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 04:32 PM
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reply to post by spy66
 


i dont get the idea of space expanding...... if you and i started in the same place and walked away from each other would the space between us be expanding?



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 04:37 PM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


That's why I asked if spy66 knew what a metric was.



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 04:43 PM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 



This is one of my favorite vids about such things as your question pertains to.



First you have to understand the fundamentals involved with the mechanics.

I keep having to remind myself of what's involved so I always review vids like that one.


The vid in this link is great too.

www.ws5.com...
edit on 4-6-2012 by LilDudeissocool because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 04:50 PM
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reply to post by LilDudeissocool
 


I will watch in a second,,,,, but what was being talked about was an infinite realm of space.....i dont see how space intrinsically is "space-time" without the addition of all the energy/matter of the universe.... I think the way the groupings of high powered and forceful energy reacts with each other in the medium of space creates effects in space - time ,,,,, like how air can be wind,,,,,, the spinning and revolving and torquing of the stuff of the universe gives the space between the stuff interesting properties.... is that not right?

the hang up for me is either space and energy/matter are not very closely related or they are.... if they are not related then energy/matter is the something while space is the nothing, the something occupies,,, if they are related then matter/energy can be birthed from space, for matter/energy is a brand of "whatever it is that space actually is"...



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 05:02 PM
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reply to post by ImaFungi
 


Just thinking here, if you think of expanding space in terms of a copier scanner scanning a V printed on a the document beginning scanned you can visualize what expanding space is really all about. With a scanner it is scanning in two dimensions, but is slicing the data one dimension at a time. The entire V printed on the document represents expanding matter in space from beginning to end. Where the scanning bar is at any given point represents the present. The sheet of paper represents the entire complete fourth dimension. It does all exist now, but only one segment at a time in 3D. We are trapped in the third dimension so we are unable to observe the document, again, the document representing all of the fourth dimension.



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 05:06 PM
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Originally posted by ImaFungi
reply to post by LilDudeissocool
 


I will watch in a second,,,,, but what was being talked about was an infinite realm of space.....i dont see how space intrinsically is "space-time" without the addition of all the energy/matter of the universe.... I think the way the groupings of high powered and forceful energy reacts with each other in the medium of space creates effects in space - time ,,,,, like how air can be wind,,,,,, the spinning and revolving and torquing of the stuff of the universe gives the space between the stuff interesting properties.... is that not right?



Try my copier analogy. I hope it helps. I can come up with more if not.




the hang up for me is either space and energy/matter are not very closely related or they are.... if they are not related then energy/matter is the something while space is the nothing, the something occupies,,, if they are related then matter/energy can be birthed from space, for matter/energy is a brand of "whatever it is that space actually is"...


Space is not the space between points of matter. I think you have it correct. Just like the V printed on a document is not the paper in my analogy.



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 05:22 PM
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reply to post by LilDudeissocool
 


The paper analogy is very good at describing the nature of space with respect to the matter "printed on" it. I might have to use that myself from now on



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 05:25 PM
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Originally posted by CLPrime

Originally posted by spy66

If your are talking about a 4 dimensional manifold.


Did I stutter?
That's what I said...a 4 dimensional manifold.

A 4-dimensional manifold is infinite in all 4 dimensions.



I've been working on trying to comprehend your idea, or rather concept, of infinity. A circle is an infinite. As I believe you are applying the term infinite within a linear context. Am I correct on that assumption? It so, that's impossible to be true.

How can this be linear? > en.wikipedia.org...-dimensions


In any dimension other than 4, a compact topological manifold has only a finite number of essentially distinct PL or smooth structures. In dimension 4, compact manifolds can have a countable infinite number of non-diffeomorphic smooth structures.


You are speaking in terms of "Jacobian matrix" I am assuming?

Without algorithms, repeated cycles there can't be any infinity anything on a linear scale.

This is why randomness, chaos theory is complete bunk if I can mention as a side note here.
edit on 4-6-2012 by LilDudeissocool because: I added content.



posted on Jun, 4 2012 @ 05:30 PM
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Originally posted by LilDudeissocool
reply to post by ImaFungi
 


Just thinking here, if you think of expanding space in terms of a copier scanner scanning a V printed on a the document beginning scanned you can visualize what expanding space is really all about. With a scanner it is scanning in two dimensions, but is slicing the data one dimension at a time. The entire V printed on the document represents expanding matter in space from beginning to end. Where the scanning bar is at any given point represents the present. The sheet of paper represents the entire complete fourth dimension. It does all exist now, but only one segment at a time in 3D. We are trapped in the third dimension so we are unable to observe the document, again, the document representing all of the fourth dimension.



yea im not sure i understand it.......... your saying the sheet of paper represents the entire complete fourth dimension ( ?which is the space in which the "v" energy of the universe will exist and change from start to finish?)..... your saying the v is a time lapse image of forms the universe takes from start to finish?, and we are attached to a smidgen of elapsing time of the universe progressing?



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