Return of Christ and the "end times"

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

If the churches were in any oyher order it wouldnt be true. And btw, the JWs didnt invent that concept, they stole the idea.

Yes but what makes me say what i have about the different flavors of believers is because there is. You have members from the loveless church, the persecuted church, the compromising church (nicolaitans), the corrupt church, the dead church, the faithful church and the lukewarm church all represented today throught christianity.

edit on 30-5-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)

Bro, your argument is ALSO true. There are 4 levels of application for those letters.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by JesuitGarlic

 

No, no sermons. Most folks I have seen completely mix up their Israelology and Ekklesiology. Mix-mash them into one doctrine/end times worldview. They completely fail Daniel chapter 9. The greatest Eschatelogical teacher I've ever seen or heard from is Perry Stone Jr. And Eschatology has been my specific point of study for over a decade now. Many others make some great arguments, but Perry shreds them all. Dr. Joe VanKoevering does an outstanding piece on the Man of Sin, and Walid Shoebat does a superb job explaining the Islamic aspect of the end times.

Your loss I guess....that Adventist guy shreds everyone haha

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


Wow that was rude, Im not even getting into an argument with you. The timing of the rapture is a tertiary doctrine, not going to even argue about. It has nothing do do with salvation. Argue with yourself.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Yes, not directly related to salvation but the Identity of the true Israel now is very important geopolitically for the United States and their foreign policy with Israel. Americans are under the mistaken belief that they must protect Israel because of the incorrect understanding of this topic. How much harm has such a foreign policy caused to the Middle East region over the past 60 odd years, I would say substantial harm for absolutely no real benefit or valid reason

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


There is a natural seed of Abraham and a spiritual seed via faith. Are you trying to confuse them both? That's unwise IMHO. Believers are his spiritual seed, however that doesn't make us his natural seed according to the flesh.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

There is a natural seed of Abraham and a spiritual seed . . .

The spiritual sons of the promise are the only ones who need to be taken into consideration, since according to the analogy, the natural are driven off.

Thankyou for the backup jmdewey60

The topic of the 144,000 (as it relates to who 'Israel' really is) is important in influencing ones attitude about the time of tribulation. Are we to just sit around passively because we ourselves are already saved and wait for someone to chop our heads off or are we to go out powerfully and spread the 3 angels messages and bring hundreds if not thousands to Jesus and the right path from all walks of life during those final days. I know which version I follow

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

There is a natural seed of Abraham and a spiritual seed . . .

The spiritual sons of the promise are the only ones who need to be taken into consideration, since according to the analogy, the natural are driven off.

So we just take a Sharpie and cross Hosea 5:15 out of the Bible? Then just accept it as a fact that when God said not one word would return to Him in vain He was saying " well basically most of them.."

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
Thankyou for the backup jmdewey60

The topic of the 144,000 (as it relates to who 'Israel' really is) is important in influencing ones attitude about the time of tribulation. Are we to just sit around passively because we ourselves are already saved and wait for someone to chop our heads off or are we to go out powerfully and spread the 3 angels messages and bring hundreds if not thousands to Jesus and the right path from all walks of life during those final days. I know which version I follow

edit on 1-6-2012 by JesuitGarlic because: (no reason given)

Okay, which of the 12 tribes are you from if you think you'll be part of the 144,000?

reply to post by JesuitGarlic

The topic of the 144,000 (as it relates to who 'Israel' really is) is important in influencing ones attitude about the time of tribulation.

I just got a book in the mail today that I had ordered from Amazon, Word Biblical Commentary; Revelation 17-22, VOL 52c, by David E. Aune. I'l have to take a look at what he has to say about that in the other volume. It takes up three volumes and after taking a look at the third one today, I went ahead and ordered the other two, used like new, which means an overstock item some book store had to get rid of, like the one I just got, which was obviously never read.
I checked out another book by Aune from the library, on The Five Books of Moses, and like the amount of information he gives on things.
I guess the point of all this is that I like to be able to base my opinions on mainstream academics instead of by sources with an agenda to promote an already decided on result.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by JesuitGarlic
Thankyou for the backup jmdewey60

The topic of the 144,000 (as it relates to who 'Israel' really is) is important in influencing ones attitude about the time of tribulation. Are we to just sit around passively because we ourselves are already saved and wait for someone to chop our heads off or are we to go out powerfully and spread the 3 angels messages and bring hundreds if not thousands to Jesus and the right path from all walks of life during those final days. I know which version I follow

edit on 1-6-2012 by JesuitGarlic because: (no reason given)

Okay, which of the 12 tribes are you from if you think you'll be part of the 144,000?

I am an acceptor and partaker of the new covenant, therefore I am from any tribe you would like that is part of the house of Judah and Israel.

Hebrews 8:8 But God found fault with the people and said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

Jeremiah 31:31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


Ummmm...

Revelation 7:4-8....

So again, which tribe are you from?

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Revelation 7: 4,5 '...144,000 of all the tribes of Israel were sealed: of the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed.

Joseph and Levi replace Dan and Ephraim in the usual list of 12. The list is a symbol of God's end time people, a commemoration of the New Jerusalem of the 12 tribes and 12 apostles referenced in Revelation 21:12-14 as Revelation is written as a chiasm format.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


Lol, no need to post the verses for me, I can almost quote the book from memory. Thats a great deal of scriptural gymnastics. You do know the 10 lost tribes is a myth correct? The terms Israelite and Jew are used interchangibly after the Babylonian captivity. Which of the 12 tribes are you from? How do you trace your heritage back? Also please tell me why the word "church" (ekklesia in the Greek) is conspicuously absent after chapter 4:1??

Things to ponder..

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Thats a great deal of scriptural gymnastics.

What sort of gymnastics are you prepared to go through?

You do know the 10 lost tribes is a myth correct?

There are myths about the fates of particular tribes, but the fact remains that they were dispersed into the other nations during the time of the Assyrian empire.

The terms Israelite and Jew are used interchangibly after the Babylonian captivity.

That does not account for the individual tribes, which is brought up in Revelation. You can't equate a particular tribe from Ephraim with Judah, being rather opposites in the scheme of the larger Israel.

Which of the 12 tribes are you from? How do you trace your heritage back?

The general consensus by biblical scholars is that the tribe's names being recited represents in an illustrative way, the connection between Judaism and Christianity.

Also please tell me why the word "church" (ekklesia in the Greek) is conspicuously absent after chapter 4:1??

Revelation 14:1-5 brings up the 144,000 and describes then as having the Lamb's and God's name on them. They are those who follow the Lamb and have been redeemed to the Lamb. So there is no reason to say church since it should be obvious that these are members of the church by definition.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


The Revelation 21:12-14 verses shows that the whole OT and NT people of God are represented. If I was to follow your logic then no Christians would make it to heaven because they are not apart of the 12 tribes. You might as well become a Jew then and make sure you are a member of one of the literal 12 tribes. Best to reject Jesus like the Jews and become one if that is the criteria to making it to heaven.

If the logical conclusion sounds unreasonable then it suggests your reading of the 144,000 and who Israel is and disregard for the people of the new covenant are all incorrect.

reply to post by JesuitGarlic


No, the main purpose of the GT is to bring the Jews into a right relationship with Christ their Messiah. To graft the natural branches back into the olive tree. They will not be members of the bride of Christ, which is for Gentiles mostly and those who are in a covenant relationship with Christ before the harpazo event. The Christians go nowhere, the Jews are made partakers of the New Covenant in Christ, or layman's terms they finally accept their Messiah as prophesied in the OT and NT.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

I doubt I'll be considered worthy to be raptured myself,

I doubt you wouldl be, either, since you mock and pick-and-choose to whom you "cast your pearls". Self-fulfilling prophecy, anyone?

and that's cool with me, those raptured have no way of receiving the martyrs crown anyways. I've been hoping for that blessing for years....

Aha! There it is, the great reveal. You want to die a martyr....with as much pain and public dissing as possible. NuT, seriously, this is a death-wish born of self-hatred. Why can you NOT just let go of all this self-blame and self-hatred??

"No one likes a martyr," dude. lesleatash.com...

No one likes a martyr.

How do we feel around martyrs? Guilty, angry, trapped, negative, and anxious to get away.

Somehow, many of us have developed the belief that depriving ourselves, not taking care of ourselves, being a victim, and suffering needlessly will get us what we want.

It is our job to notice our abilities, our strengths, and take care of ourselves by developing and acting on them.

It is our job to notice our pain and weariness and appropriately take care of ourselves.

It is our job to notice our deprivation, too, and begin to take steps to give ourselves abundance. It begins inside of us, by changing what we believe we deserve, by giving up our deprivation and treating ourselves the way we deserve to be treated.

Life is hard, but we don’t have to make it more difficult by neglecting ourselves. There is no glory in suffering, only suffering. Our pain will not stop when a rescuer comes, but when we take responsibility for ourselves and stop our own pain.

Today, I will be my own rescuer. I will stop waiting for someone else to work through my issues and solve my problems for me.

Plus, you're not pious and dedicated enough. Your style is erratic. One day you hope to "groom" the 'babes in Christ' (as you call them), the next you claim you're not worthy, and all along you portray yourself as an "apologetics hobbyist." You want to be a missionary...but don't feel qualified yourself to receive the vast bounty that awaits those who haven't fallen as far from grace as yourself.

One has to wonder, reading your posts, if you are subliminally asking someone to off you...if not here where it's "hard", then in some third-world country where you'd be stoned to death immediately. Strange thinking, that, my friend. Strange indeed. Quite a load to be pulling around. You should watch "The Mission", seriously.

www.imdb.com...

en.wikipedia.org...(1986_film)

Mercenary and slaver Rodrigo Mendoza (Robert De Niro) makes his living kidnapping natives and selling them to nearby plantations, including the plantation of the Spanish Governor Cabeza (Chuck Low). Mendoza subsequently finds his fiancee (Cherie Lunghi) and his younger brother Felipe (Aidan Quinn) in bed together. He kills Felipe in a duel. Acquitted of the killing by Cabeza, Mendoza spirals into depression. Father Gabriel visits and challenges Mendoza to undertake a suitable penance. Mendoza accompanies the Jesuits on their return journey, pulling a heavy bundle containing his armour and sword.

Father Gabriel's mission is depicted as a place of sanctuary and education for the Guaraní. Moved by the Guaraní's acceptance, Mendoza wishes to help at the mission and Father Gabriel gives him a Bible. Mendoza takes vows and becomes a Jesuit under Father Gabriel and his colleague Father Fielding (Liam Neeson).

Excessive self-loathing is way, way different from martyrdom as an apostle or disciple or whatever. I wish you luck...you really needn't suffer so.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

No, the main purpose of the GT is to bring the Jews into a right relationship with Christ their Messiah. To graft the natural branches back into the olive tree. They will not be members of the bride of Christ, which is for Gentiles mostly and those who are in a covenant relationship with Christ before the harpazo event. The Christians go nowhere, the Jews are made partakers of the New Covenant in Christ, or layman's terms they finally accept their Messiah as prophesied in the OT and NT.

Of course none of this is based on the Bible, but on YouTube videos.
The Bible says there is no longer distinction between Jew and gentile.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

No, the main purpose of the GT is to bring the Jews into a right relationship with Christ their Messiah. To graft the natural branches back into the olive tree. They will not be members of the bride of Christ, which is for Gentiles mostly and those who are in a covenant relationship with Christ before the harpazo event. The Christians go nowhere, the Jews are made partakers of the New Covenant in Christ, or layman's terms they finally accept their Messiah as prophesied in the OT and NT.

Of course none of this is based on the Bible, but on YouTube videos.
The Bible says there is no longer distinction between Jew and gentile.

No longer a distinction IN CHRIST.. there is still a distinction in the flesh. You should be excited the Jews blindness isnt permanant and they will be redeemed to Christ someday. Unless you just flat-out hate all Jews.