I think we're back on track.

Thanks to those not flaming and presenting forward moving thoughts.

Wow, this...this is horrible. Undoubtedly ranks among some of the worst behavior I've seen on here in a long time.

We have not only flaming, but mod-approved flaming, deliberate attacks on a nation. I feel like I'm eyeball deep in ignorance here.

How long did making fun of the french go on for- seven, eight posts, with at least two mods laughing along? Yeah, nice. Real nice, folks, making fun of the only frenchman posting, probably one of three or four on the board. Big men now.

I for one believe this story. This is how it soudsn to me:

1. French reporters go to Iraq, are captured by terrorists.

2. Private concern 'negotiates their release' (meaning they paid a ransom)

3. Americans screw it up by shooting at everything, like usual.

Now, all things considered, I'm not surprised. Americans have so far killed Canadians, brits, allied Iraqi's and their own troops in friendly fire incidents. So how could they NOT fire on french civillians?

Such a pleasure to read this, what with the keeping on topic, ruthless flaming , garbage posting and mod-approved beatdowns.

DE

Well this is original (or maybe not), someone complaining about others flaming one country by flaming another country. Talk about bigotry!!!

Oh, thats right, flaming the US is just fine for everyone to do. I forgot. Sorry.

Has anyone heard for sure that the convoy was trying to identify itself in some way? One would think they would have done something to set themselves apart.

How? leaning out the windows and waving? It's not like there's all that much they could have done. Screamed in french, maybe?

DE

Originally posted by DeusEx
Wow, this...this is horrible. Undoubtedly ranks among some of the worst behavior I've seen on here in a long time.

We have not only flaming, but mod-approved flaming, deliberate attacks on a nation. I feel like I'm eyeball deep in ignorance here.

DE you're a good person and very insightful. And this thread has horribly been derailed as you point out. But we'd like to get it on track. I appreciate your comments to the original meat of the post very much, but the "mod thing" isn't helping right now.

The "mod beat down" came after this post:

Originally posted by SILVERTHORN
I am french and i understand now why so many people here hate americans.
Your are so stupid man!!!

You'll notice no Mod Warn on the guy for it (as of now). But allow me to explain in my best playground voice He started it. Mods are posters too though and don't always respond "as mods" though it is understandable it may seem that way. But the all too frequent Mod Cop'ing that goes on really hand ties the situation. (Not addressing just you DE)

This place would suck if mods couldn't post. And frankly, noone would take the job if they had to be robots. Please don't contribute to the already rampant tongue clucking that ages everyone dumb enough to do this five years on day one. We've just added new people today that need your support.

I apologize for being off topic myself here now, and promise I'll shut up so people can debate this one. It's a good topic!

And hope we're cool DE.

Originally posted by SILVERTHORN
I am french and i understand now why so many people here hate americans.
Your are so stupid man!!!
U can t be enough clever to understand.
We didn t want that war such as many of your citizens!!
We want the freedom of our journalist that s why we go there to free them
And u don t have too much work to fight peple who kill your soldiers that u kill people who don t harass u!!
It s behaviors like yours that can trigger increase of violence
i am just happy to know that u are not AMERICA but only one stupid american people
AMERICA is better than your attitude it make all of us dream but your attitude make all of us vomit

French MP: US bombed French journalists' convoy!

Two things I would like to point out.

1. Fanoose's thread is titled "French MP: US bombed French journalists' convoy!" This leads one to believe that a convoy of French journalists is bombed, when, in fact, a convoy of Iraqi kidnappers was bombed.

2. Silverthorn calls Intelearthling stupid and goes on to call all Americans stupid and with three moderators on board, he has not been warned.

[edit on 04/10/3 by GradyPhilpott]

We're cool, RANT. If we weren't, you wouldn't be an exceptionally minor character in the book.

See, my problem starts where TC gets his beat down on, then three people join him, then FredT- a moderator- posts extensively on just how bad at life the French are. He may have started it, but that doesn't mean mods should continue it.

The guy's understandly upset, in my mind. his countrymen had a shot at freedom, yet americans screwed it up adn even endagered them. I'd be angry, too. You should have seen me after 4 Canadians died and a bunch more were woulded on a training mission by an American pilot. You of all people that people post things in anger. Now, look at the decapitation threads. Despite all the hollering and howling for the middle east to be reduced to glass, I know that most of what's said there is said out of anger. By and by, most people don't believe what they say. I expected that sort of understanding from TC and Fred, at least. I didn't expect them to aggravate the situation for almost a solid page.

I'm more than a little disappointed in that respect, but I know that there will always be SOME people who are looking otu and keepign their heads on straight.

DE

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
2. Silverthorn calls Intelearthling stupid and goes on to call all Americans stupid and with three moderators on board, he has not been warned.

Yes, thank you for an example of the rampant "Mod Cop'ing" I was just referring to.

We've now got members angry mods beat him down and others angry he wasn't beat down harder.

If anyone would ever again like to suggest the coveted "warn" award for another poster there is a suggestion form at the top of the board that allows you to voice your displeasure for all mods to see. There it can be debated at great hand wringing length outside the thread intended for for another topic. Criminals will pay. Victims will receive justice. And all will live in harmony. I envision such a perfect cyber world. Please join me in this quest.

Originally posted by RANT
[Yes, thank you for an example of the rampant "Mod Cop'ing" I was just referring to.

I want to point out, RANT, that I have never called for someone to be punished for an offense against myself. I have even sent U2Us to offenders asking them to change a post to avoid punitive measures. I am not Mod Cop'ing, as you put it. Mods may do as they wish. I just cannot help but comment that the vitriol started with Silverthorn's comments and no action was taken against him.

I would think that the ire of any true American would be raised by these inflammatory remarks and it is just unusual, in my experience, for these things to go unaddressed. I have seen warnings issued for far less.

Sounds kinda bloody Rant, can I just watch from the side lines?

Originally posted by DeusEx
Wow, this...this is horrible. Undoubtedly ranks among some of the worst behavior I've seen on here in a long time.

We have not only flaming, but mod-approved flaming, deliberate attacks on a nation. I feel like I'm eyeball deep in ignorance here

3. Americans screw it up by shooting at everything, like usual.

Now, all things considered, I'm not surprised. Americans have so far killed Canadians, brits, allied Iraqi's and their own troops in friendly fire incidents. So how could they NOT fire on french civillians?

The guy's understandly upset, in my mind. his countrymen had a shot at freedom, yet americans screwed it up adn even endagered them.

I agree. This nation bashing has to stop.

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott

Originally posted by RANT
[Yes, thank you for an example of the rampant "Mod Cop'ing" I was just referring to.

I want to point out, RANT, that I have never called for someone to be punished for an offense against myself. I have even sent U2Us to offenders asking them to change a post to avoid punitive measures. I am not Mod Cop'ing, as you put it. Mods may do as they wish. I just cannot help but comment that the vitriol started with Silverthorn's comments and no action was taken against him.

I would think that the ire of any true American would be raised by these inflammatory remarks and it is just unusual, in my experience, for these things to go unaddressed. I have seen warnings issued for far less.

Grady, you're a good guy and a heck of great contributor yourself. I hope you already knew I thought that. On this issue I figured you could take the heat of my example and help others take the hint to move it along nothing to see here.

I was in the middle of going through explaining again in this response how you can't please all of the people all of the time, but I just said screw it, erased all that and warned Silverthorn too.

Anybody else?

You've never been in combat have you, DE. These incidents are cause for concern, but in certain conditions most are unavoidable. The Gulf War I figures are so high because the war was so short. The US went into those conditions with no experience. Combat is controlled choas. There is little doubt in my mind that those incidents would have been reduced as a percentage as the learning curve flattened out.

When you are in a combat zone, your life is in danger. You can be killed by the enemy, accidents, fire originating from friendly forces or a heart attack. That's the nature of the business.

My heart goes out to all those who lost who lost countrymen in these incidents, but I would hope that our allies would realize that these things happen. And when these things happen, if negligence is involved, someone faces prosecution.

And these incidents are not isolated to the US. In most of the actions of late the US has been the primary provider of combatants and therefore, we have more "lead" in the air.

So, maybe you would do well not to criticize events about which you can bring to the debate only statistics, instead of experience.

[edit on 04/10/3 by GradyPhilpott]

These occurances aren't isolated. This is repeated, systematic. And I didn't exactly see Canadians, or brits, or anyone else firing at the convoy. This is an example of Americans dropping the ball.

DE

No this is an example of war. In war people die. The journalists are not exempt from death nor does the journalist 'badge' exempt them from a bullet. Screaming french out the window of a moving vehicle while under fire would be comparable to whispering to your buddy during a rock concert.

All the coalition forces cared about was their orders and if you were there you would've done the exact damn thing. You would've unloaded on their 'convoy.' There is no conspiracy here. They were at the wrong place at the wrong time and generally in a combat zone that makes you very dead.

They should be thankful they are still alive and thats that.

Originally posted by DeusEx
……….Now, all things considered, I'm not surprised. Americans have so far killed Canadians, brits, allied Iraqi's and their own troops in friendly fire incidents. So how could they NOT fire on french civillians?..............

It is so refreshing that you can sit behind a keyboard sipping a drink, head dodging the occasional house fly, and still from time to time hit the wrong key even though it is located about a foot in front of you…..and talk about how mysterious it is to you how friendly fire casualties happen, there only using HE and being shot at….surely they are screwing the pooch. As for the French bit that was just funny.

I apologize for my part in this, but still will stand behind what I said. Is it still just picking on someone if it is based on truth and facts?

FredT’s post, although humorously sarcastic, was based on facts, the same with several others and mine. I though that Deny Ignorance was the main line deal here, or is political correctness always first and foremost?

If this where a debate on which countries army or jet fighter where best, then would it be acceptable to voice an opinion that might ruffle someone’s feathers?

Like it or not, there is bad blood between these two groups, because one of them feels that it is their job to speak up every time the other nation decides to defend itself. The French interjecting their opinion in everything we do is no better then the US interjecting our armed forces in other countries business.

I personally do not really believe in the war, but when picked on, like any good citizen, I am going to stick up for my country, right or wrong.

Now admittedly some of these posts went a bit into just being insults, but this is going to be a touchy subject. Those on one side are going to feel this is a great chance to pick on the US for screwing up, those on the US side feel that the other side had no business being there after raising all kinds of problems with us going to begin with.

Originally posted by DeusExI'm sorry, what do YOU call repeated friendly-fire incidents?

I call them friendly-fire incidents just like you. And the figures you quote are awful. The death of former NFL player Pat Tillman should have been a wake up call to all commanders of U.S. forces.

However, I take offence at the way you felt you had to say it. Which, IMHO had a distinct American bashing slant to it I have seen all to often on this board. I feel you could have made your point equally well by saying:

Wow, this...this is horrible. Undoubtedly ranks among some of the worst behavior I've seen on here in a long time.

We have not only flaming, but mod-approved flaming, deliberate attacks on a nation. I feel like I'm eyeball deep in ignorance here

3. Another incident of friendly fire by the Americans.

Now, all things considered, I'm not surprised. Americans have so far killed Canadians, brits, allied Iraqi's and their own troops in friendly fire incidents. So why should it surprise me that it has happened again.

The guy's understandly upset, in my mind. his countrymen had a shot at freedom, yet americans fired upon the convoy and even endagered them.

With the bold of course being my changes. It seems to me that there is an understood tolerance her for bashing the United States. Yet, judging from some other threads, If I were to say "Canada is only good for beer and bacon" (which I absolutely do not believe by the way), I would be flamed to a cinder.

I don't know, maybe it's just me.



[edit on 10/3/04 by Seth Bullock]

I've gone shooting but once, and there was one thing drilled into me the entire time.

Do NOT point your weapon at something you have no intention of perforating.

Seeing as the letters on a keyboard are significantly different from a firearm loaded with live, deadly ammunition I don't treat them with as much care as I would a weapon.

I have two major objections to what happened in thisl post:

1. attacks on a particular nation. This has been resolved.

2. The apparent actions of American soldiers, who fired on what appeared to be a civilian convoy.

It is my understanding that this roadblock was not under seige, nor was it in the middle of an enormous firefight. People are fallable, and in that I know that accidents will happen, especially in the heat of battle. But this isn't the heat of battle. Even in the heat of battle, there is absolutely no reason for 49% of all casualties in a war to be caused by one's own side.

This convoy wasn't a mass of armor, or personel carriers. It was civillian transport, carrying civillians.

A state of war does not excuse carelessness, nor does it condone unchecked aggression.

DE