Originally posted by Seth Bullock

However, I take offence at the way you felt you had to say it. Which, IMHO had a distinct American bashing slant to it I have seen all to often on this board.

I often take offence at what extremely pro-Americans have to say. They demean others while glorifying only the united states. It boils my blood to watch people like that attack Canada and france on a bi-daily basis.

I however do apologize for the way I worded my post.

DE

Point being even if the convoy was all civilian vehicles….the resistance is made up of civilian vehicles duh….so how do you expect them to differentiate; especially since there is no ministry of terrorism building….ie they had to have terrorists guiding them or they would have absolutely no clue where they were going. In other words the American forces fired on a convoy with a mixture of civilians and terrorists. As for the extensive experience you have listed with combat and counter terrorism activities; I stand corrected, obviously you are just the man to determine when friendly fire causalities have reached negligent levels. And to think that I called into question your ability to understand the actions of those who are not only shooting……but more importantly being shot at. I should be, and am ashamed for that, how thoughtless and stupid. if they could just train with you at your nice clean firing line...where no one has a bad intention towards anyone, then I’m sure that would help our troops stop being imbeciles and shooting our own, because we all know that all American troops want to do is kill there fellow military members. Thanks for the wonderful insight; your brilliant insight will be forwarded onto the pentagon immediately, for I’m sure they have never had such a completely surefire way to stop friendly fire incidents.



[edit on 3-10-2004 by keholmes]

Originally posted by DeusEx

A state of war does not excuse carelessness, nor does it condone unchecked aggression.

DE

Yes in a fantasy world that would be true but this is real life.

One guy shooting can bring a hugh #estorm and no one is going to say, "oh wait a second while I walk up and have a chat while you unload the fifty." "Pardon me while I walk through this blizzard of bullets to wave down these trucks." "Hey there young men stop this here shooting let me talk to the chap."

Lets see my orders are to block any convoys from taveling on this road because there is a curfew or it's closed down, whatever. Oh Dave and his unit got wasted last night on that road when two vehicles decided to come on down. Dave stopped them like a good little boy and took two to the chest and one to the face. We did what we could ya know but what could you do?

So the first shirt says well damn Dave bought the farm guess what fellas any vehicles come down there hauling ass light em up. "Yes sir Sarge." "Don't call me sir I work for a living."

And there you have it the poor sons a bitches coming down that road are cannon fodder. They knew the consequences of working (driving) in a COMBAT zone they crapped out that day simple as that.

HAS THIS COUNTRIES LEADERSHIP AND MILITARY LOST THEIR MINDS

If you want to kill the enemy next time wait until they drop of the people that are being freed alive dont seal their fate by being stupid.

I for one appologize to France and Im asshamed people are so caught up in their little war that they cant even show restraint long enough to protect people who are not hostiles

Originally posted by SILVERTHORN
what a pity to be a super moderator Thomas Crowne and to say such things...
i can only say u in french "pauv' truffe"
understand if u can

I took three years of French in junior high school, realized it was a worthless language of a cowardly country and purged it from my brain. Your crap means nothing to me.
Suck on that, pal. You want to communicate to me, do it in the official NATO language - English. Oh, yeah, your pathetic country bailed out of NATO when it realized that America and the rest of Europe would have to defend it for logistical reasons.
Pathetic, greedy cowards. Shut your pie-hole.

But hey, you make the finest white flags anyone will ever find, and your used weaponry is in mint condition - never used, dropped once.

[edit on 3-10-2004 by Thomas Crowne]

HAS THIS COUNTRIES LEADERSHIP AND MILITARY LOST THEIR MINDS

No. The more of these neck-choppers we put holes in, the better. What, pray tell, are the French doing there in the first place? Unfortunate? Sure. Wrong place wrong time? Absolutely.

They should be back in Paris, counting the Iraqi bribe money they collected at the start of this mess.

[edit on 3-10-2004 by goregrinder]

Iraq is a dangerous place for civilians at all, if they have to be there they should stay in bases or convoys
Non-convoy tripping was the reason of death of the Polish journalists Waldemar Milevich and Mounir Bouamrane from terrorists

goregrinder

Im simply saying that the case was a shoot first ask later that I dont feel right about how did they know if they were combatants or not .....you mean to tell me if a caravan of simular vehicles are driven by innocent civilians trying to get away from the fighting who dont even have a hostile intent what so ever should be attacked .....because it could have been just that senario and then there would be an attrosity committed this day they should atleast find a way to scout these types of situations before they blow a convoy of kids and nuns away or something you know

What, dr, do you think that a combat area is all that simple? Flash bulletin for you, pal, our military has done more to make war as peaceful as it can be with the technology available. Don't like it? Stay the heck out of the way like all noncombatants should do. Sheesh!

Every time some stupid twit gets himself killed by a soldier by accident, we have at least one soldier who is now screwed in the head because of remorse and guilt and other soldiers afraid of doing the same thing. Guess who is the next to get killed because of hesitation? Of course, that means nothing because it will be only an American soldier. He is nothing more than some number to some anti-American liberal.

[edit on 3-10-2004 by Thomas Crowne]

I'm sorry to sound unhumaintarian here, but you have to think of this from the American side (if the report is even true, *eyes Aljazeera source*) and who the targets carrying the frenchman may have been, and if the US forces even knew the frenchys were in the convoy. A dead terrorist is a good terrorist. An accidental casualty is just that; an accident.

Je m'en fous.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
What, dr, do you think that a combat area is all that simple? Flash bulletin for you, pal, our military has done more to make war as peaceful as it can be with the technology available. Don't like it? Stay the heck out of the way like all noncombatants should do. Sheesh!

Every time some stupid twit gets himself killed by a soldier by accident, we have at least one soldier who is now screwed in the head because of remorse and guilt and other soldiers afraid of doing the same thing. Guess who is the next to get killed because of hesitation? Of course, that means nothing because it will be only an American soldier. He is nothing more than some number to some anti-American liberal.

[edit on 3-10-2004 by Thomas Crowne]

no no TC I am not nieve I know very well how hard it is our boys are sandwhiched between what 3 or is it 4 hostile intities now.... I just cant see why there cant be a better quicker way to kill those A** wipes with out what we are going through now this military we have are historically not very good when it comes to being gurilla fighters themselves and they definately not used to the stuff they have had too deal with this war I mean ya the boobie trapped dead bodies and a few kids in NAM but this is way off the wall crap and im trying to find a way to shorten the war and save lives

Originally posted by AtheiX
Iraq is a dangerous place for civilians at all, if they have to be there they should stay in bases or convoys
Non-convoy tripping was the reason of death of the Polish journalists Waldemar Milevich and Mounir Bouamrane from terrorists

I didnt know I was sorta right by saying the convoy travel may be better so check first but I do understand what others are saying if just one convoy is a military target that is a problem too but I still think spook or ghost them before firing to see if they are what they seem to be should be tryed ....dont we have some iraqi nationals who are members of the us military they will look like the enemy some can talk the language and therefore they can blend into a convoy and get the intel needed before shooting doesnt that sound like a plan

If this really happened like that Didier Julia said, then it only shows that making negotiations with people considered enemies of the Iraqi government and doing it without the Iraqi government approval is a good way to enter the list of enemies of the Iraqi government.

As, apparently, they where doing it without the French government approval, they cannot even say this is a problem between France and Iraq or the USA.

This was an private attempt to liberate the French journalists, and it shows that in these conditions, anyone trying to be a private hero faces the same fate as any civilian in a country with widespread combats.

And do not forget one thing, this was told by a politician, so we must take it cautiously.

Just one thing, forget the country bashing, nobody except the politicians in charge when something happened can be considered responsible by the actions of an country, so do not blame people who only had the luck (good or bad) of being born in that country for something he can not control.

Originally posted by ArMaP
If this really happened like that Didier Julia said, then it only shows that making negotiations with people considered enemies of the Iraqi government and doing it without the Iraqi government approval is a good way to enter the list of enemies of the Iraqi government.

As, apparently, they where doing it without the French government approval, they cannot even say this is a problem between France and Iraq or the USA.

This was an private attempt to liberate the French journalists, and it shows that in these conditions, anyone trying to be a private hero faces the same fate as any civilian in a country with widespread combats.

And do not forget one thing, this was told by a politician, so we must take it cautiously.

Just one thing, forget the country bashing, nobody except the politicians in charge when something happened can be considered responsible by the actions of an country, so do not blame people who only had the luck (good or bad) of being born in that country for something he can not control.

my point is to express displeasure with the US goverment and the military that carried out the mission I know not all US, French or Iraq have something to do with it I might have not made that clear as frustrated with the problem at hand and short on sleep having been on here since yerterday 3pm central US time so forgive me if it seemed as if I was out to get everyone

Originally posted by fanoose

Julia's assistant, Philippe Brett, had persuaded the kidnappers to release the Frenchmen and they all left in two separate convoys from their place of detention, both of which had come under US fire, the MP said. . . .

The MP said Brett learned of the mission's failure as soon as he arrived separately at the Syrian border and headed straight back to the journalists' captors. . . .

Can't see Anything 'mysterious' there. . Philippe Brett and the French journalists left in two separate convoys, they were escorted by iraqis and the MP. Both of the convoys came under attack, six iraqis were killed, the convoy that carried the french journalists returned back, the convoy carrying Brett kept going to the Syrian border, When he arrived he knew about the mission's failure (journalists were not there/freed) so he went back again to iraq (journalists' captors).

[edit on 3-10-2004 by fanoose]

Maybe it's just me, but meeting with the journalists' captors without letting your "allies" know about it so that we could tail them or whatever, seems a bit odd. What if one of the captors was Zarqawi?

Or maybe I'm just reading it wrong - lack of sleep has that effect on me.

If you read my above post, i thouroughly explain my position. Anyone who puts themselves in the position to be killed in a warzone, and is killed, is not a shocking casualty. You can blow this out of proportion if you like, but unfortunate things happen. Please tell me as well what French people are doing there in the first place? At this point, I think even the strings on the worlds smallest violin have snapped.

fanoose

Where in the Guardian article says that Didier Julia or Philippe Brett where sent by the French government?

From The Guardian:

PARIS (AP) - An unofficial French negotiator told a radio station Friday that two journalists held for more than a month in Iraq could be released within hours.

Brett is not an official negotiator for the French government. He has worked in Iraq for years, including when the country was under U.N. sanctions, mainly through the French Office for Development of Industry and Culture, which he helped found.

The French may look all the same to some people, but I think that Philippe Brett and Didier Julia are not the same person as Jean-Pierre Lafon.

Bashing a nation is one thing but the replies in here basically draw the image that French aren't worth considered to be humans.

That's where bashing ends and discrimination starts but hey, ATS is famous for its tolerance of insulting France and rendering the French sub-humans.
I am not even a fan of France and it still shocks me.

Bashing...Germany gets bashed in here. The USA gets bashed in here. But both on a level where it's ok and not discriminating.

It's the same level of discrimination that Jews experienced in Nazi Germany and sometimes I have the feeling some of the Rednecks here would perfectly fit in that time as Nazi soldier. Same type of thinking and behaviour

And Rant, you supa-dupa Mod...if ATS is sooo unbiased and objective as you and the others love to say, why is it basically non-americans receive warnings on and on and comments like that go unwarned?:

The Frogs are the most corrupt, self serving, (and as all records of deodorant sales in Europe testify), smelly people in Europe.

Rant, I suggest if you don't want to look like an idiot (this is no insult, I am saying...if...okay? he has the chance not to look like one) you should take action more wisely in the future. Thanks in advance.

[edit on 3-10-2004 by shoo]

Originally posted by crossfire
The Frogs are the most corrupt, self serving, (and as all records of deodorant sales in Europe testify), smelly people in Europe.

Their politicians are corrupt - can you believe their last President had an illegitimate child and the press never reported it even though they knew?

Their current President is as corrupt as an African dictator.

There are two reasons why France opposed the removal of Sadaam

1. They are cowards - the history of France in the 20th Century is one of cowardness and weakness

France - old Europe, corrupt, diseased, irrelevant.

I can see the hate. When are the concentration camps coming? There's a name for that attitude - RACISM.

And as for SILVERTHORN's attitude, which I support completely... what do you expect, folks? You bash on his country, you expect him to stand by and not say anything, or come in and say "You're right, we're a horrible people, we have no right to pollute the world with our presence"?

Some of you have a lot of anger towards France. Express it decently! Condemning an entire nation like some of you have done is an act of unwillingness to dialogue and/or understand, hatred, and finally IGNORANCE. And this board is about DENYING ignorance.

EDITED to add that I see the situation has been dealt with by a mod on page 3. Thank you.

[edit on 3-10-2004 by Otts]