Muslim Woman Asked to Remove Headscarf in NJ Mall

reply to post by smyleegrl
[mor


the guy clearly over stepped his bounds..

just leave people the hell alone - is it that hard?

reply to post by Rosha

You're beyond reasoning with

I have yet to see you demonstrate any capability to reason or use logic. Post after post all you offer is personal attacks and grossly distorted accusations and assumptions about others.

You come on here defending a barbaric practice that should not be allowed in any decent civilized country, any more than female genital mutilation or animal sacrifice.

The U.S. Constitution does not protect the right of women to wear a burqa, it can't be defended as a religious right.

U.S. governing bodies at local, state, and federal levels write all kinds of laws that restrict how people dress, and all other kinds of personal behavior to prevent abusive practices. Banning the burqa is well with constitutional bounds.

That Muslims carry out Honor killings, murdering women who adopt western ways when they live in a western nation, is more than enough reason to ban the burqa, and all forms and customs that Muslims use to control their women.

In addition, Muslim boys and men like to call western women sluts and whores for not following their barbaric, so called religious practices, and have taken to harassing western women who go through predominately Muslim neighborhoods for not wearing these barbaric outfits.

Lastly, Muslim men like to gang rape western women, a violent crime repeated in every western nation where Muslim populations grow in numbers.

I bet you think this is all fine and dandy.

Every Muslim with half a brain should be pushing to ban these barbaric outfits, and all the other horrible practices pushed by radicals to create hostilities and barriers to Muslims finding peace with the rest of the world.

muslimvillage.com... e-given-power-to-remove-face-veils-for-id/

Text
July 5 2011

Muslim women can be forced to remove their face veils during routine car stops under new powers granted to NSW police.

Premier Barry O’Farrell said cabinet had approved the move on Monday so police could properly identify motorists or any other people suspected of committing a crime.

“I don’t care whether a person is wearing a motor cycle helmet, a burqa, niqab, face veil or anything else, the police should be allowed to require those people to make their identification clear,” he said in a statement.

Last week, NSW Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione said police needed stronger powers to identify women who wear full facial veils.

It follows the case of Sydney woman Carnita Matthews, who in November 2010 was sentenced to six months in jail for falsely accusing a police officer of forcibly trying to remove her burqa.

The case arose after Ms Matthews was pulled over while driving in Woodbine in June 2010.

However, the sentence was quashed on appeal last week after NSW District Court judge Clive Jeffreys ruled there was no evidence to confirm Ms Matthews filed a criminal complaint against the officer, because the person who did so was also wearing a veil and wasn’t positively identified.

An appeal has been launched against the decision but Mr O’Farrell said Attorney-General Greg Smith had been advised by the Director of Public Prosecutions it was unlikely to succeed.

However, Mr O’Farrell said the new police powers – which are expected to be in place within a couple of months – should help prevent a recurrence of such a case in the future.

“I have every respect for various religions and beliefs but when it comes to enforcing the law the police should be given adequate powers to make a clear identification,” he said.

Police have had the power to ask women to remove face veils during the investigation of serious offences but did not have such powers during routine car stops.

Mr O’Farrell later defended the move, saying the state’s Islamic Council has said the wearing of face veils is not compulsory.

“The good news is that the Islamic Council of NSW has made the point that it’s not compulsory in relation to their religion,” Mr O’Farrell told reporters in Sydney on Monday night.

“It’s also an issue with other religions, it’s also an issue with other cultures, but whether it’s the drivers’ licence or passage through customs, identity checks are required in this day and age and we’re determined to ensure police have the powers (to implement them).”

Mr O’Farrell said the law in its current form is “vague”.

“So we’re going to ensure if police have any concerns about anybody who is wearing any form of face mask, they can seek to establish that person’s identity and those people will be required to obey.”

Originally posted by poet1b

edit on 28-5-2012 by poet1b because: typos

Regarding the constitution and law, it does protect her rights, it is a matter of personal choice and often religious expression - to the women wearing it - and given that perspective isn't yours, it is THEIRS to decide for themselves, it remains they have every right to, and there is nothing you can do about it.

Western men rape women and small children for fun and profit! call women sluts or ho's/ whores and take sex tours of poor countries and rape girls there to prove their point! Western men invade countries and rape their women for sport! Western men institutionally and religiously abuse children too ( Catholic Church and state homes) etc...I could go on..the only common denominator there is MEN refusing to 'man up' and respect the inherent rights of women and children to live a life free of abuse.

I have presented you several times with information enough to reveal your hypocrisy poet. You cant see because you don't want to see any other view than your own. You don't see that you're falling into a trap and that your own rights are being placed at risk in your belief others have no rights except what you give them. You would condemn a woman you don't even know, simply for making a different choice to you in order to feel 'safe' or justified and morally superior...regardless of if she is even married or not! Whats next..we outlaw the turban? We outlaw bikini's? Where does it end poet and who made you god of all?

In saying what you do, that you feel they need to be 'banned', you are undermining the civil and legal rights of this woman and in that, are no better than any Islamic fundamentalist who would also arbitrarily deny a women her rights to NOT wear a Burqa. You are saying this woman doesn't have a right to choose her own garments, not brain enough or no capacity to think for herself and decide for herself what is appropriate for her. How rude not to mention a joke if you expect your rights to 'freedom of dress code' be upheld at all.

How would you feel..really..if I came into your space and told you that the shirt you ware wearing is offensive to me..said you shouldn't be wearing it in public..and what if I then demanded it be banned and assumed and asserted that you had no capacity to choose to wear the shirt or not as you'd been conditioned by propaganda or worse to wear it..more..what if I then went on a self righteous rampage of demanding you be stopped by law or force from wearing it...how would you feel?

You'd most likely tell me to go f*ck off - its a 'free country' right?

Why would this women feel any different?

Are you saying you are the only one who has rights to wear what you want?
Are you saying this woman has no real feelings or isn't entitled to feel angry or hurt by what happened to her? That her feelings and thinking somehow aren't 'valid' on this issue or is less worthy than yours is?

With views like that, its amazing African Americans made it past segregation! Your using the exact same arguments white supremacists used to imprison marginalize and hound them!

Very dangerous territory but as I've already noted...its your loss...your life..and I am just glad I don't live and think this way. I find many things obscene in this world..but I know I don't have the right to stop one single person from their actions..where I can't act, the law can and and does and thankfully in this situation the law supports her.

""You come on here defending a barbaric practice that should not be allowed in any decent civilized country, any more than female genital mutilation or animal sacrifice.""

A barbaric practice..hmm....she is just choosing to wear a different dress style to you. Barbaric?
Visiting foreign lands to rape girls there out of sight, or dressing up 2 yr old's in g strings and make up isn't barbarism? Again, you have a specious reasoning...not an argument. How about you clean up your own house before you start pointing the finger at the state of others.

In all of my posts I have notcondoned the oppressive use of burqa or any other material or immaterial tool when the same is imposed by another over and above their own will..I have only supported THIS woman's right to wear it..as SHE has said she feels the offense of being treated the way she has..indicating she made a choice to wear it..and wants to continue to shopping peace..while wearing it and not to be victimized for her choices.

I don't have to like the burqa to respect the woman and her choice and right to wear it.


Rosha

>done<

Originally posted by redneck13
muslimvillage.com... e-given-power-to-remove-face-veils-for-id/

Text
July 5 2011

Muslim women can be forced to remove their face veils during routine car stops under new powers granted to NSW police.

Premier Barry O’Farrell said cabinet had approved the move on Monday so police could properly identify motorists or any other people suspected of committing a crime.

“I don’t care whether a person is wearing a motor cycle helmet, a burqa, niqab, face veil or anything else, the police should be allowed to require those people to make their identification clear,” he said in a statement.

Last week, NSW Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione said police needed stronger powers to identify women who wear full facial veils.

It follows the case of Sydney woman Carnita Matthews, who in November 2010 was sentenced to six months in jail for falsely accusing a police officer of forcibly trying to remove her burqa.

The case arose after Ms Matthews was pulled over while driving in Woodbine in June 2010.

However, the sentence was quashed on appeal last week after NSW District Court judge Clive Jeffreys ruled there was no evidence to confirm Ms Matthews filed a criminal complaint against the officer, because the person who did so was also wearing a veil and wasn’t positively identified.

An appeal has been launched against the decision but Mr O’Farrell said Attorney-General Greg Smith had been advised by the Director of Public Prosecutions it was unlikely to succeed.

However, Mr O’Farrell said the new police powers – which are expected to be in place within a couple of months – should help prevent a recurrence of such a case in the future.

“I have every respect for various religions and beliefs but when it comes to enforcing the law the police should be given adequate powers to make a clear identification,” he said.

Police have had the power to ask women to remove face veils during the investigation of serious offences but did not have such powers during routine car stops.

Mr O’Farrell later defended the move, saying the state’s Islamic Council has said the wearing of face veils is not compulsory.

“The good news is that the Islamic Council of NSW has made the point that it’s not compulsory in relation to their religion,” Mr O’Farrell told reporters in Sydney on Monday night.

“It’s also an issue with other religions, it’s also an issue with other cultures, but whether it’s the drivers’ licence or passage through customs, identity checks are required in this day and age and we’re determined to ensure police have the powers (to implement them).”

Mr O’Farrell said the law in its current form is “vague”.

“So we’re going to ensure if police have any concerns about anybody who is wearing any form of face mask, they can seek to establish that person’s identity and those people will be required to obey.”

Loving those words ' not compulsory' the same indicating that here, a CHOICE exists and women may, in this country at least, make the choice to wear or choose not to wear the burqa niqab or veil.
A free choice..as it should be.


Ro.

So we’re going to ensure if police have any concerns about anybody who is wearing any form of face mask, they can seek to establish that person’s identity and those people will be required to obey.”

Originally posted by redneck13
So we’re going to ensure if police have any concerns about anybody who is wearing any form of face mask, they can seek to establish that person’s identity and those people will be required to obey.”

yes ..note that word POLICE...not some jo schmuck security guard....not train inspectors or shopping mall staff..just POLICE...men and women who are only armed under several dozen service laws that require them to behave and act in certain ways..or be charged themselves. So..this is an action that can only be taken under specific circumstances and even then, they will be held accountable for those and any abuses.




Ro

any form of face mask, they can seek to establish that person’s identity and those people will be required to obey.”
Yes that sets the precedence any time security is a question.
those people will be required to obey

Originally posted by redneck13
any form of face mask, they can seek to establish that person’s identity and those people will be required to obey.”
Yes that sets the precedence any time security is a question.
those people will be required to obey

you seem intent on focusing on 'obey'.....so tell me..do you stop at red lights?

Why?

Are you 'obeying the required law' because some big bad big brother is beating you to? Or is it that you don't want a ticket, or are you just using common sense and don't want to be killed or kill another?

Perhaps both?

Not everything is so black and white.

I wear a helmet..and so am forced by law if I wish to use the facilities, to "obey" and leave it at bike side or on my arm when I enter a bank or fuel station. I really don't have a problem with this exercise of common sense..I choose to live in this society..I'm not out out hurt to steal...its not an inconvenience..and so.I am more than happy to "OBEY" a law that is based on common sense..and the awareness that not all people share my honesty goodwill or intent. Its not about what I might do..but the defense of an innocent from what might be done to them.

I spent this afternoon watching some of the absolute worst of the videos from Afghanistan and Yemen that I have.....watched again the treatment of women there..heard again the excuses for 'honorable ' beatings and killings"... all of it. Burqa or no..its the needless misogyny and lack of choice that remain the primary issues for me.
I am more than convinced after watching..that we need to do better..be better.....not simply allow ourselves through fear or misunderstanding, to collapse our own principles and just form into their mirror and become just another form of oppression...their reflection.



Ro

reply to post by Rosha


When those freedoms get into the way of potential attacks on our citizens...BECAUSE we have those very freedoms to think, act, dress, pray and worship as we'd like...then that is the only issue. And they and we we are being used for that very thing.

***Muslim Dearborn Mi -Memorial Day Parade Yesterday

In support of this topic and all angles pro and con, yesterday I was one of the parade marshalls here in Dearborn.

I paid close attention along the parade route for only the Muslim citizens with their entire faces accept eyes covered completely.

I can report to you that it was barely...BARELY... of the thousands of attendees...only about 1% (ONE maybe 2%)...had entire faces covered.

So, I thought thats a pretty good indication in FAVOR of their freedoms...

What a crock, now is time for a total ban on the burka now. Open face society we have nothing to hide, do we?


those people will be required to obey

Originally posted by mysterioustranger
reply to post by Rosha

 

When those freedoms get into the way of potential attacks on our citizens...BECAUSE we have those very freedoms to think, act, dress, pray and worship as we'd like...then that is the only issue. And they and we we are being used for that very thing.

So...freedom is something bestowed by the state and only exists in the USA when its convenient to whatever agenda is being pushed by its leaders or its fears.


Ok.

You said it.

In saying it you make every deployment of every marine a lie, every justification for your current wars a lie, every excuse for the murder of civilians from foreign lands a lie.

Not that those things weren't to begin with..but you have certainly underlined it for everyone.

Thank you for your honesty.

I am deeply grateful I comprehend the word freedom differently to you.

.

Rosha.

Originally posted by redneck13
What a crock, now is time for a total ban on the burka now. Open face society we have nothing to hide, do we?

those people will be required to obey

edit on 29-5-2012 by redneck13 because: m

I know might be very hard to hear redneck...but people..other human beings... have the inherent right to choose what they will wear and when and how they will wear it. You are not God you are not ' the boss of them'. They don't need YOUR permission to make their choices. You have no rights 'over' them and if YOU have a problem with them then its YOUR problem..so go deal with it..don't expect the world to pander to you or to change itself for you or to appease your over-weaned need for blanket security.

Mature..grow up..get over it.live well 'anyway'..or not..it really is your choice. Either way..people will continue to wear what they like..as they should be able to given they are adult human beings and equal under law...and there's dick squat you can do about it.
You'd have the burqa/niqab equivalent of a yellow star on her lapel if you and poet had your way and that is sickening to me after what the world has already been taught about the end result of such views....but the amount of f*ck that will be given by me today about your views is so small..its hardly worthy the effort to type this...I don't have to live with them...and I am not bound by them.

Thankfully..while law exists..neither does this woman.


Rosha

France continues to be the model. Unless they have very deep pockets, it looks as though they will be forced to obey

abcnews.go.com... d=13344555

Text
By ALYSSA NEWCOMB (@alyssanewcomb)
April 10, 2011

A controversial burqa ban passed by the French parliament last year will go into effect Monday, making the traditionally secular country the first in the European Union to ban the wearing of the head-to-toe Islamic covering.

In defiance of critics of the ban, who say it is anti-Islamic, President Nicholas Sarkozy told French lawmakers last year the burqa is not a religious symbol.

Under the new law, women caught wearing a burqa in public will face a warning, then a $200 fine.

The consequences are even heftier for a man if he forces a woman to wear a burqa -- a $43,000 fine.

Originally posted by redneck13
France continues to be the model. Unless they have very deep pockets, it looks as though they will be forced to obey

abcnews.go.com... d=13344555

Text
By ALYSSA NEWCOMB (@alyssanewcomb)
April 10, 2011

A controversial burqa ban passed by the French parliament last year will go into effect Monday, making the traditionally secular country the first in the European Union to ban the wearing of the head-to-toe Islamic covering.

In defiance of critics of the ban, who say it is anti-Islamic, President Nicholas Sarkozy told French lawmakers last year the burqa is not a religious symbol.

Under the new law, women caught wearing a burqa in public will face a warning, then a $200 fine.

The consequences are even heftier for a man if he forces a woman to wear a burqa -- a $43,000 fine.

That law exists in France..not the USA and not Australia.

You seem to be getting all hot and heated about it...have to wonder ..."forcing" people' to do your will...is it turning you on? What kind of power trip are you getting from it? Certainly seems you are..have you even thought about the next group who will be targeted when they're done with this lot....what if your in it?

On the day they come for you...remember this conversation wont you.

The death of common sense and human rights isn't something to be celebrating.

This will be me on that day...





cheers


Ro.

>done

Yes we must have common sense and freedom. We can do that by showing everyone else we have nothing to hide it is only fair for everyone.
Finally, a burka ban in the Netherlands. How long must we suffer. When burkas are finally outlawed in the USA those people will be forced to obey

www.forbes.com... 27/burqa-ban-comes-to-the-netherlands-finally/

Text

Burqa Ban Comes To the Netherlands. Finally.
+ Comment now
More than seven years after an Islamic extremist murdered Dutch filmmaker and commentator Theo van Gogh on the streets of Amsterdam; more than seven years after niqab-clad women exulted in Van Gogh’s hideous death (stabbed and shot, his throat sliced, and a knife plunged into his body pinning a lengthy note that promised a similar fate to others), and more than ten years after former Parliamentarian Ayaan Hirsi Ali warned of the oppression and radicalization taking place among Dutch Muslim women, Holland has, at last, banned the burqa. It becomes the third country in Europe to institute such a ban

Originally posted by nonono
In my country there's a law that says you can't wear a mask in public because it makes it difficult to identify you. I suspect a similar law would also exist in New Jersey... so why should this woman be allowed to wear a headscarf that hides most of her facial features?

Im from new jersey and women have the right to wear whatever they want. That is just plain discrimination. I've seen thousands of more dangerous people here that dont do not cover up.

reply to post by Rosha


Im sorry you somehow got that from 1 post. Ive posted many others here above as I work with Muslim women and did so Memorial Day. I exhibited my support for our freedom by being one of the Parade Marshalls in honor of our troops and their service to our country and its freedoms.

And what did you do on Memorial Day to support the memory of those who gave their lives? Think about it.

Thanks...and...Peace to you

reply to post by smyleegrl


In regards to: "a New Jersey shopping mall security guard of trying to force her to remove her head-covering garment."

It's annoying to be with people who impose their fears on others. This is the same thing as if I were to come up to you and demand you take off your cross, your cowboy hat, your trench-coat, etc...because I have suspicions about those kind of people, it is my problem, and I have no right to impose on another.

Fear does not give anyone a free pass to violate others. It is none of anyone's business to make these types of judgement calls. People need to focus more on their own behavior and not interfere so much with other people's business when no crime has been committed. I think society has tolerated know-it-all and busybodies enough, it's time to start letting them know it's time to mind their own business.

Recently, a white girl decided it was her job to reprimand a litterbug. She got a good beating for it. I am not recommending violence but I am pretty sure this girl will not be so quick as to try to tell others what to do in anytime in the near future. It would be more productive if people start policing themselves rather than others.

Thanks SmyleeGrl you post some good stuff