Understanding That Being In A "Secret Society" Doesnt Mean Your Privy To EVERYTHING!

reply to post by protocolsoflove

Yes this is true. But...masons are sworn never to reveal the secrets of the lodge under penalty of death. So when we come on here with probing arguments and are met with a brick wall of "not trues" it becomes extremely difficult to trust any of the responses regarding such, although I am certain many of the posts here are honest and accurate.

I am a Free and Accepted Mason, and the only thing I have ever been obligated to keep secret are our grips, words, and the secrets of a brother who entrusts them to me. Also, I have no real fear for my life. No one from my Lodge has ever killed anyone over spilling a secret. Some members have killed people, be it at war, law enforcement, or in self-defense, but none on behalf of Masonry. So, feel free to ask me anything except for the secret words or grips. Those things are only used to identify a brother Mason anyway. They are not useful for anything except gaining admittance to a Lodge, and even then they are worthless without a current dues card.

People have been doing exactly what you ask. Masons are always saying "just ask me." Someone asked a member which god or gods he believes in and a paragraph response came back with no names yet if you didn't think about it it would seem like you got an answer.

I'll answer. In Masonry, we call the creator by the generic name of "Grand Architect of the Universe." This is no secret. Each Mason has their own religion. Most of the members in my Lodge are Christians, and they worship Christ and the Father. We have a couple of Catholics that take it a step further to the Holy Trinity, and we have one Jew that worships YHWH, but none of those names are ever used in Lodge. Once in awhile at meal time a Christian will slip up and use Jesus' name when saying grace before the meal, but no one gets upset about it.

Me personally, I don't believe in a personified deity. I think the creator is pervasive throughout all of nature and everything that has ever been or will ever be. I think it is impossible to describe with words and impossible to define within the confines of human thought, and I think it is a mistake to even try. I sometimes call the creator "God" or "Heavenly Father" but usually in private I don't use a greeting at all, I just break right into my prayer. If I pray in Lodge, I use GAOTU as is custom for the Lodge and is sufficiently non-denominational.

I'm not trying to stir up a satanism debate, I understand what Gnostic dualism is.

All I'm saying is that people who are "Grand Masters" or whatever arrogant title they like to assume didn't get to where they are because they spill the beans on the internet.

What you have to understand is that it would be impossible to spill the beans on the internet. The lessons of Masonry come from living morally, upright, and just. Could you regurgitate everything you ever learned from your closest 20 mentors on the internet and make it understandable to anyone? What about the things you learned through trial and error or deep contemplation? If you tried to explain them, would anyone care? Would they get the same things out of your words that you got out of the actual experience? It is impossible. If I had the memory for it, I could go back and recite everything that has ever been said or done in my experience in Masonry, but it would just be a long boring story. You don't garner any benefit from the rehashing of it, you have to experience it and evolve from it.

For another example, you can read about karate in a book. You can practice the moves. You can beat up a blanket on a board. You can even watch Bruce Lee movies, but until you get in a fight, you just won't understand about getting punched in the face or choked from behind. You won't know how much force it takes to flip a man or break a grip. You won't know how to do your karate with blood and sweat in your eyes. It takes the actual experience, not just words.

Originally posted by KSigMason
reply to post by protocolsoflove

 

Except we're not saying "not true" to secrets you are posting but we do say it to untrue statements and false information.

And so the merry go round goes round and round

reply to post by protocolsoflove

Prove my statement wrong. If your coming close to something I shouldn't talk about I don't detract by saying "untrue". I simply don't put myself, in a situation to leak anything I shouldn't. I am honest at all times.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by protocolsoflove

 

Yes this is true. But...masons are sworn never to reveal the secrets of the lodge under penalty of death. So when we come on here with probing arguments and are met with a brick wall of "not trues" it becomes extremely difficult to trust any of the responses regarding such, although I am certain many of the posts here are honest and accurate.

I am a Free and Accepted Mason, and the only thing I have ever been obligated to keep secret are our grips, words, and the secrets of a brother who entrusts them to me. Also, I have no real fear for my life. No one from my Lodge has ever killed anyone over spilling a secret. Some members have killed people, be it at war, law enforcement, or in self-defense, but none on behalf of Masonry. So, feel free to ask me anything except for the secret words or grips. Those things are only used to identify a brother Mason anyway. They are not useful for anything except gaining admittance to a Lodge, and even then they are worthless without a current dues card.

People have been doing exactly what you ask. Masons are always saying "just ask me." Someone asked a member which god or gods he believes in and a paragraph response came back with no names yet if you didn't think about it it would seem like you got an answer.

I'll answer. In Masonry, we call the creator by the generic name of "Grand Architect of the Universe." This is no secret. Each Mason has their own religion. Most of the members in my Lodge are Christians, and they worship Christ and the Father. We have a couple of Catholics that take it a step further to the Holy Trinity, and we have one Jew that worships YHWH, but none of those names are ever used in Lodge. Once in awhile at meal time a Christian will slip up and use Jesus' name when saying grace before the meal, but no one gets upset about it.

Me personally, I don't believe in a personified deity. I think the creator is pervasive throughout all of nature and everything that has ever been or will ever be. I think it is impossible to describe with words and impossible to define within the confines of human thought, and I think it is a mistake to even try. I sometimes call the creator "God" or "Heavenly Father" but usually in private I don't use a greeting at all, I just break right into my prayer. If I pray in Lodge, I use GAOTU as is custom for the Lodge and is sufficiently non-denominational.

I'm not trying to stir up a satanism debate, I understand what Gnostic dualism is.

All I'm saying is that people who are "Grand Masters" or whatever arrogant title they like to assume didn't get to where they are because they spill the beans on the internet.

What you have to understand is that it would be impossible to spill the beans on the internet. The lessons of Masonry come from living morally, upright, and just. Could you regurgitate everything you ever learned from your closest 20 mentors on the internet and make it understandable to anyone? What about the things you learned through trial and error or deep contemplation? If you tried to explain them, would anyone care? Would they get the same things out of your words that you got out of the actual experience? It is impossible. If I had the memory for it, I could go back and recite everything that has ever been said or done in my experience in Masonry, but it would just be a long boring story. You don't garner any benefit from the rehashing of it, you have to experience it and evolve from it.

For another example, you can read about karate in a book. You can practice the moves. You can beat up a blanket on a board. You can even watch Bruce Lee movies, but until you get in a fight, you just won't understand about getting punched in the face or choked from behind. You won't know how much force it takes to flip a man or break a grip. You won't know how to do your karate with blood and sweat in your eyes. It takes the actual experience, not just words.

Your response is a pleasant read and I believe we can agree on everything you have said. My intent here has never been to get passwords etc because that is silly. Is it your position that non-masons are incapable of leading a moral and just life? Because if this is all there is to understand of masonry then I should have as much first hand witnessing as you guys through my own life experiences and those I have met (including many good masons who have helped me greatly in my career). Therefor, to claim that the only things that are secret are the passphrases and stuff means that all the other aspects of masonry should be readily identifiable and understandable by all people who choose to study it in their life. This is why when I am constantly told that I am wrong because I can't comprehend the subject i smh

reply to post by protocolsoflove

Is it your position that non-masons are incapable of leading a moral and just life?

Absolutely not. Masonry is just one of many outlets for someone to find mentorship and camarederie. Churches are good. Business contacts are good. Family members are GREAT! Even visiting retirement homes and absorbing some wisdom from the elderly would be great. I've learned a huge amount from joining ATS! I've learned more about the history and origins of Masonry on ATS than I have in Lodge. In Lodge I have learned the life experiences of some accomplished men, and I've found a place to reflect and bounce ideas off men I respect, and I've found men willing to help one another out without any desire to be repaid. Thats it, nothing unique about it.

Freemasonry is said to be a beautiful system of morality, veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols.

It is just a way that men have found to communicate in a memorable manner. There is an old customer service idiom. When someone is yelling at you, talk quieter. If you want people to listen, if you want them dialed in and focused, don't blast them with your message, veil it. Make them dig for it a little, and it becomes memorable.

Because if this is all there is to understand of masonry then I should have as much first hand witnessing as you guys through my own life experiences and those I have met (including many good masons who have helped me greatly in my career). Therefor, to claim that the only things that are secret are the passphrases and stuff means that all the other aspects of masonry should be readily identifiable and understandable by all people who choose to study it in their life. This is why when I am constantly told that I am wrong because I can't comprehend the subject i smh

People are consistently wrong when they assume things. People are often wrong when there desire to believe outweighs their own observation and logic.

I'll be honest, even as a current Mason and past Worshipful Master, I wish some of the things I read on the internet about Masons were true! I'm a smart guy, with powerful connections, and good health, and a charismatic personality, and good looks! (Still working on humbleness.) Anyway, if there was an elite group looking to recruit and expand their reach, they would have me on their radar, and since I plan to get into politics anyway, I'd be more than happy to join. I wish there was some magic involved. I wish some people did take their blood oaths more seriously. I wish we did haze our new initiates a little more seriously and require them to sacrifice a little bit more. The internet stories are just stories. People that want to believe in those stories often find themselves at odds with real Masons. Some of us were once like you. We'd love to believe the Masons have an ancient knowledge, and a treasure trove of Templar treasure, and shadow government waiting to step in and fix all the problems in the world. If it were true, I'd be front and center and ready to do my part, but it just isn't true.

Originally posted by protocolsoflove

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask

Originally posted by protocolsoflove

Originally posted by Lasr1oftheJedi
Just by the concept of a "secret society", and participating in such, you should realize that you don't know all that's going on. After all, even as a member, you only know what they tell you, and that information is only privy to members. So imagine what the top rung holds on too.

I think most masons are good people, that help build society. They built the park not far from where I live, and rebuilt it, after it was burnt down by losers with nothing better to do. No cost to the tax payer, they were happy to help. Most masons are good people, that do good things. But like all people, like all societies, secret or not, there are those that bring misery only to profit.

I would submit that being member make them much less capable of critical thinking and actual knowledge. Unlike historic freemasonry (which included Newton, Mozart, Franklin, etc...), the lodge today fails to turn out these great minds of man that actually better humankind.

All I can find today are degraded celebrities, members of society who only want personal gain through a network.

today it is just a bottom tier organization on the power chart, with a LOT of masons putting most of their efforts into concurrent bodies. So many of them spend much more time with their OTO brethren....

Yes that makes sense.......just like people who have a degree in their profession are clueless and incapable of critical thinking about said profession, over that guy on the street who thinks he knows........

That doesnt even compute........

Haha so you're saying that people become intelligent about something when they receive a college degree?

BAHAHAHA

Our institutions of learning are a joke.

The people who don't have degrees are the ones who started work right away

Many companies pay extra to skip college so you don't get brainwashed.

No im saying a basic truth........people who study the subject or are intimately involved with a subject.....

Typically know more then the people who sit around and speculate.......

To deny that is just ignorance..........

I can guarantee you , a medical professional knows more about his profession and how to diagnose a patient then someone who spends their time on webMD

reply to post by ManBehindTheMask

No im saying a basic truth........people who study the subject or are intimately involved with a subject.....

Typically know more then the people who sit around and speculate.......

To deny that is just ignorance..........

I can guarantee you , a medical professional knows more about his profession and how to diagnose a patient then someone who spends their time on webMD

What you share is in fact, a basic truth, but not the whole truth.

There are other competing "Arts" of healing that would argue the point. A herbal (Holistic) healer can and does critique the information, actions, and outcome of the standard physician. They are just as qualified and knowledgeable as your corner Doc. Some even carry the same degrees, some do not.

But but you say, its the fact that the realm of medical professionals are also held in a state of compartmentalization, as with all other institutions. The reason your corner doc has no knowledge of the other is because he is not taught or made aware through his own educational system or by his union, that being the AMA.

You do not, and can not "Know" all their is to know, unless just as the Masons inspire for, become enlightened about one subject or the other, in one fashion, or another. You can not justify blanket statements just because it is the only thing you have been taught, that, my friend, is true ignorance.

PS I like your sig, so true, so true....

reply to post by getreadyalready


That's a disgusting admission of love of and desire for personal gain.

Originally posted by protocolsoflove
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

That's a disgusting admission of love of and desire for personal gain.

Who doesn't have desire for personal gain? I don't go to work 40 hours per week because it is just that entertaining, I go there to make a living to provide for my family, and if there is a way to provide better, I am certainly going to explore the options.

Even spiritual growth and enlightenment is personal gain.

Besides, if there is anything every ATSer agrees on, it is the fact that we are in need of drastic change at the political level, economic level, environmental level, and spiritual level. If I could use my skills and connections to help affect some of that change, then it is a win-win!

I never said I would do anything nefarious, I just said if those groups exist, they would have me on their radar. If that happened, then I would wiggle in and do as much good as I could do. Too bad the groups do NOT exist.

The reasons I wish we took our craft a little more seriously, and expected more from our members, and respected our obligations a little more diligently is for the good of the craft, not personal gain. I feel we have become so lax as Masons that we have devalued our fraternity. It is extremely easy to get into the fraternity and very little is asked of the members. Pay your little bit of dues, and show up for 3 degrees. That's it. It's too bad we don't expect more out of our members.

Originally posted by protocolsoflove

Originally posted by network dude
reply to post by NoRegretsEver

 

I agree 100%! but sadly some folks can't grasp the concept that that yellow belt most likely knows more about his Kata than the fat kid picking his nose in the corner playing Assassins Creed.

Just sayin.

You heard it straight from the proud traveler himself. People who aren't masons are "fat kids in the corner playing assassin's creed". Most masons I've seen are fat as hell and they never stop drinking beer until they fall asleep in their soup.

edit on 24-5-2012 by protocolsoflove because: typo

The logic you used to get to that statement is utterly amazing. You truly are way smarter than everyone else. I am terribly sorry I ever doubted your immense intelligence.

Are you a fat kid who pics his nose? If so, then I apologize. Being a bottom tier mason such as I am, I haven't learned how to phrase sentences quite yet. I have to go buy some soup now. Don't forget to use Kleenex!

reply to post by getreadyalready

Besides, if there is anything every ATSer agrees on, it is the fact that we are in need of drastic change at the political level, economic level, environmental level, and spiritual level. If I could use my skills and connections to help affect some of that change, then it is a win-win!

I never said I would do anything nefarious, I just said if those groups exist, they would have me on their radar. If that happened, then I would wiggle in and do as much good as I could do. Too bad the groups do NOT exist.

I believe you left out one very very important area that also needs changing, complete overhaul of the current Geo-political system. Its antiquated and defiantly not in the interest of all mankind.

I would have to agree with you that there does not seem to be any good guy organization to wiggle into, but as before, how could "you" know this? My own conclusion they do not exist is from years of trying to join up with this non existent group. And I know I would be on their radar, all nuts and loonies would be