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Are Afghans braver than US troops?,tell me about your experiences(With MOS)

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posted on May, 21 2012 @ 08:49 PM
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reply to post by cavtrooper7
 

Well to start with we need to define bravery,ifr bravery can be measured by the willingness to die for what one believes is right then Al Qaeda must have the bravest warriors on the planet.However if bravery may be defined as putting the lives of innocents before one's own,then those same Al Qaeda warriors are nothing but despicable cowards.

The truth is,one man's bravery is another man's cowardice,especially in this day and age.To me, bravery was exemplified by the conscripted British,US,Canadian and other commonwealth troops who took part in the Normandy landings,they knew they were heading for hell,but even though sick with fear and taking everything that the defending troops could throw at them,still came through and managed to inflict serious damage on those self same defenders and achieve their objective.




posted on May, 21 2012 @ 08:50 PM
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Originally posted by cavtrooper7
Hello.a certain poster has stated that MY troops are hiding in MRAPs and that the Afghan insurgents are superior soldiers as individuals BECAUSE THEY ARE BRAVER.I could spend hours debating this fool but I thought it best to ask the troops themselves with my own thread.
Knife fights would be particularly welcome.


I'm not a soldier, but just postulating, I don't think it has anything to do with bravery, I think it has something to do with desperation and necessity.

If you put a chihuahua on his own porch, he is the mightiest dog in the world and he'll fight a bear, but if you put him in a bear's den, he is going to look for a quick exit!

The Afghans have no point but to be brave. They are fighting for their homes, but the foreign troops are just doing a job hoping to make it back to their own homes in one piece. It isn't a fair scenario to either party.



posted on May, 21 2012 @ 08:58 PM
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Originally posted by getreadyalready

Originally posted by cavtrooper7
Hello.a certain poster has stated that MY troops are hiding in MRAPs and that the Afghan insurgents are superior soldiers as individuals BECAUSE THEY ARE BRAVER.I could spend hours debating this fool but I thought it best to ask the troops themselves with my own thread.
Knife fights would be particularly welcome.


I'm not a soldier, but just postulating, I don't think it has anything to do with bravery, I think it has something to do with desperation and necessity.

If you put a chihuahua on his own porch, he is the mightiest dog in the world and he'll fight a bear, but if you put him in a bear's den, he is going to look for a quick exit!

The Afghans have no point but to be brave. They are fighting for their homes, but the foreign troops are just doing a job hoping to make it back to their own homes in one piece. It isn't a fair scenario to either party.


Since youve never been there let me que you in there not fighting for there homes.In fact the people there dont like the Taliban.The problem is they have no way to defend themselves while the Taliban comes into villages with guns and RPGs. They will beat them intimidate them kill them if necessary. The villages cant fight back because they dont have the money because the Taliban steals it from them not to mention the drugs they run.You could never understand how the average person has to live in Afghanistan constantly in fear that some militants will kill them. If you considder bravery intimidating farmers and there families yeah the Taliban are real men. Force people to fear you by killing there family yeah there brave all right.



posted on May, 21 2012 @ 09:11 PM
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reply to post by dragonridr
 


What the Afghani people want is their country back, away from the Taliban and away from US military. They want a life most have never seen, one without fear and in peace. A life where they are not treated as dogs, by anyone.



posted on May, 21 2012 @ 09:21 PM
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It no secret that many Muslims see the presence of western soldiers in Arab nations as an invasion, as an act of war against them. So they pick up their guns to fight.

Sadly many Americans and in general people from the west don’t consider them terrorist, they consider them farmers who want to defend their home land.

I have a unique perspective on this issue having been an SF Team Leader in charge of a small compound in rural Afghanistan. On one hand I do know that a certain portion of the population in country views the US presence as an occupation. In my experience I think this proportion is small compared to those who view the US as a stabilizing presence.

The rural people of Afghanistan are many things, uneducated by our standards, very slow to accept change, have a strong view of the subordinate role of women, practice closet homosexuality as a sign of prestige among the well placed adult males, and other characteristics we might consider undesirable here at home.

They are for the most part peaceful, non-militant, farmers and (in my area anyway) herders who have made a living albeit a minimal one in one of the most inhospitable regions on the earth.

While there are some small percentage who support the old Taliban. They mostly do it in a support role by hiding weapons, collecting information on my teams, and providing food and an occasional safe haven for the actual fighters. Why do these villagers support the Taliban or ALQ?

While a minimal portion of the population support and harbor them willingly - most who do so do it out of fear as the rural people fear the foreign born Taliban and ALQ fighters more than the US that is for certain.

It’s just as this poster said:


Originally posted by GAOTU789 I don't think that most realize that the large majority of Taliban and AQ fighters aren't Afghani's but foreigners, Uzbeks, Kazakhs, Tajik's, Chechnyans and others that have gone to Afghanistan to fight Jihad and the Western Satan.


To most layman who think the innocent Afghani people are just rising against an invasion here is the truth. I captured and killed many in the Taliban and ALQ networks on many deployments both in Iraq and Afghanistan - about 80-90 percent of the fighters are not Afghanis or Iraqis at all. In Iraq they are predominately from Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Yemen and Somalia. In Afghanistan they are Pakistanis, Uzbekistanis, Bosnian Muslims, Chechnyans etc. They are found with fists full of Saudi and Pakistani currency? Hummm…wonder if they fight for their beliefs or for money. The public are ill informed at best on what really happens in theater.

Another pro-tip 99% of their leaders are not even Afghanis for the most part.

Why do they villagers fear these fighters more than the US?

I’d say that it’s because we don’t institutionally rape women and take child brides from the village without paying a bride price (or even paying one for that matter), conscript boys, take food stuffs and kill those who don't actively assist the US mission.

The hard core Taliban and ALQ do most assuredly. I got most of my intelligence tips from actual Afghanis who were sick of the terrorists and their thug ways. They want them gone more than they want the US gone.

My team conducted sick call, distributed food, built schools, paid for any damage we did to the tune of absurdity - like 200.00 for a dead goat. I am a dairy farmer in the US now (retired Army) and I can get a pedigree milk goat doe for 200.00. We paid 1-3K for a broken down horse that wouldn’t make the meat wagon here. I had more than 30 at my base camp. We paid the locals to feed and care for them way more than we should. We stimulated the economy, cured disease, vaccinated kids, and generally made life better. The ALQ and Taliban can't say the same I'm afraid.


I can't speak for others but I having seen the actual results of our efforts believe we are safer here and I believe the Afghani people are safer in their own villages and homes as well.

It takes a good balance of the carrot and the stick to accomplish anything IMO. We (at least in SF - tried to walk the delicate balance in between.



posted on May, 21 2012 @ 09:56 PM
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Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL
reply to post by OpinionatedB
 




Your posts are indicative of a person who wants to go fight as you say you are a trained commander etc


I could be commander of US forces, German forces, you don't know.



THE_PROFESSIONAL - You are not a Commander of anything...well, your fantasies maybe.

1: You didn't capitalize "Commander" and any Commander in the military types Commanding about 50 times a day in his signature block.

2: You refered to your "entrance scores" any US military member would have said ASVAB or AFQT.


Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL
Yes it does. Do you think the drone operators would go in on the ground? No because they want to stay and play on their playstations. Same for the armored vehicles. They are not brave at all, period.


Really?

A military takes many roles to make it work. I, at the pointy end of the spear, could never be successful in my missions without the everyone from the finance clerks who manage my Soldier’s pay, the computer systems kids or radio repairmen who enabled me to talk to my headquarters or call for air support, to the mechanic who could repair a vehicle under fire with some duct tape and an adjustable wrench and everyone in between.

My Soldiers in Special Forces represented the most intelligent and capable in the military and many were all star athletes in school and honor students as well.

Very sought after go getters that strive to be the best at whatever they do - any company would love to employ them. I’d put my Sergeant E5 medic up against any civilian doctor in a contest of emergency trauma management any day and he certainly didn't have a first class emergency room either. My intelligence Sergeant spoke 4 languages fairly fluently, played the cello and did calculus to relax in the evening.

Most were from working middle class America and one was even a Lawyer who gave up his practice to enlist for about 30% of what he made so he could serve after 9/11 and is now a career Soldier - enlisted BTW not an officer and he has a JD. Some were from poor or humble beginnings for sure - the sons of rural poor to include myself; none felt they were limited to the military - all were happy to be there making a difference.

Hardly a group of steely eyed killers we had a weekly Dungeons and Dragons game in the compound FFS; how geeky is that?

By no means was there anyone of us who enjoyed killing another human being...


Anyway...all of them are brave in my book, regardless of the level of their “entrance scores” because these young Americans made a sacrifice of the some of the best years of their lives, subordinating their desires and in some cases the very freedoms they protect for others to repay the nation to whom they owe allegiance for the bounty they enjoy.

They know what it is like to be part of a team to risk all for a cause – any cause.

They know their lives are on the line for the decisions they make, sometimes complicated life or death decisions which if made wrong will in the current administration place them in a prison cell as sure as the very enemies they face.

Young men and women willing to risk their freedom, to make hard choices at a age when their peers think exam week is an ordeal.

Sure not all were or should be exposed to fire but the potential was there.

More risk than most American’s are willing to face.

Bravery!





edit on 21/5/2012 by Golf66 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 21 2012 @ 11:12 PM
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Its hard to say. The Afghan fights with reason he is doing what he thinks is right. We do it for the money, or as an escape from everyday life.



posted on May, 21 2012 @ 11:19 PM
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posted on May, 21 2012 @ 11:27 PM
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reply to post by Golf66
 





THE_PROFESSIONAL - You are not a Commander of anything...well, your fantasies maybe.


Your just jealous I am a Commander



1: You didn't capitalize "Commander" and any Commander in the military types Commanding about 50 times a day in his signature block.


Called a typo




2: You refered to your "entrance scores" any US military member would have said ASVAB or AFQT.


Nope not all would do it. I do it my own way.

While your story may be heartfelt, it does not take away from the fact that they are not brave but still cowards fighting a much weaker army than themselves.



posted on May, 21 2012 @ 11:45 PM
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reply to post by THE_PROFESSIONAL
 


Ah yes they are all cowards and bullies and that is why they would rather be in Afghanistan terrorizing the poor defenseless Taliban rather than home with their loved ones.

And just because an opponent is materially inferior doesn't mean that they are universally weak. A Commander like yourself should grasp that
They seem to do a good enough job keeping us from making any progress and fighting the kind of war that sends home more shattered minds and bodies than ever.
edit on 21-5-2012 by Mkoll because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 21 2012 @ 11:45 PM
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Originally posted by DoctorMobius
It’s hard to say. The Afghan fights with reason he is doing what he thinks is right. We do it for the money, or as an escape from everyday life.


Oh yeah, Soldier's make big bucks...I only had to work like 100 hours a week too. Quite the cushy deal really. My meals were provided - the sand in them was even free!

I am surprised that more people don't do it; honestly, I mean who wouldn't want a job like that. So much money that my second in Command (a Warrant Officer with 3 kids) was eligible for food stamps.

I loved the escape I got from countless of my daughter's birthdays, anniversaries.

I especially loved the escape I got when I got to present a flag to 8 year old orphan at a funeral. Being both slapped then hugged by a widow in the same 10 second period was a special treat.

I have been both been bored to tears and stricken with fear on the same day; held a dear friend as he died in my arms, seen heroes and villains in action it's clearly the escape....

I mean it is an escape from the stress of say having a job where I could make a bad choice and cost them money investments and maybe get fired.

Much easier to have a job in which decisions could cost lives of my subordinates or some children in a village. A job in which a mistake like that will get you prison is no pressure.

No one knows why a Soldier does what he does but each individual.... Ask one?

I bet she/he will be honest.


edit on 21/5/2012 by Golf66 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 21 2012 @ 11:47 PM
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reply to post by Mkoll
 


We are making plenty of progress, taliban numbers are down, we just have not conquered Afghanistan.



posted on May, 21 2012 @ 11:50 PM
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This argument really needs to stop! Anyone, whether it be friend or foe, who is willing to take a chance of dying for their cause, is brave regardless of their nationality or cause.
edit on 5/21/2012 by SUICIDEHK45 because: two words



posted on May, 22 2012 @ 12:19 AM
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reply to post by Golf66
 


Welll I honestly don't care why you did it. If you did it because you felt it was right well your just an idiot.



posted on May, 22 2012 @ 12:28 AM
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reply to post by DoctorMobius
 


With that post you show your true character, a character of much lower caliber than the one whose self-sacrifice you have belittled and mocked. Have you borne that kind of burden of your own volition? Sure, the USA's foreign policy is far from where it should be, but the men and women in the armed forces are a part of it because they care about the idea of defending the people; people like you who in turn belittle that decision.

It is the kind of moral relativism you display that has gotten us where we are today. A corruption-addled welfare-warfare state leeching our wealth and freedom. I say that if he did it because he felt it was right we should commend him for putting principles first and potentially sacrificing his person for the idea of protecting you. I think that is bravery.
edit on 22-5-2012 by Mkoll because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2012 @ 02:14 AM
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Sheesh !
You have a kip - come back and wow !!
I wonder can I sue for injuries caused by multiple face palms !



posted on May, 22 2012 @ 02:49 AM
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Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL
Your just jealous I am a Commander


No, I have 6 years of Command time - totally enough for me.


Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL
Called a typo


I don't by it, just in the everyday reading of correspondence you'd correct three things that are specifically military. Soldier is always capitalized, Family is always capitalized, and Commander is always capitalized. Especially, if you Command at the rank of Major or above you lead through correspondence using AR 25-50 as your bible of sorts.

Commanders speak and write as they have been trained (which you claimed you are) - then again you might be one who slipped through the cracks and just sucks at his office duties. I doubt it. Easy mistakes are easy to recognize and fix.


Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL
Nope not all would do it. I do it my own way.


Don't by it:

1: While Officers do take the ASVAB (as your rebel self calls it "entrance scores" it is all but irrelevant by the time you are competing for selection for a command position.

2: Selection for Command is all based on job performance (tell us what form is used to evaluate officers performance and the role of the senior rater in the process). Finally, at what grades and for how long do Commanders serve in what level units?

Soldiers and Officers, speak and write a certain way. We use acronyms and specific terms - especially when talking/writing to each other.

Like the one liar/sham I caught on ATS who was talking about how tough it was to get his RANGER BADGE - can you explain why that sets off all sorts of warning bells? Yes, the RANGER BADGE...


Originally posted by THE_PROFESSIONAL
While your story may be heartfelt, it does not take away from the fact that they are not brave but still cowards fighting a much weaker army than themselves.


Finally, in a written lie a change a sudden misuse of a pronoun like above when you (after claiming to be a “Commander”) claim that "they" (referring to a group to which you allegedly belong) are fighting a much weaker army than themselves.

This betrays the fact that you either don’t belong to the group or that you want us to believe you don’t belong to the group. I don’t know which is true both are indicators of deceptive behavior and poor leadership that is counter to anything a Commander is taught.

Also, for a Commander with “high entrance scores” you clearly have problems with English. The end of the one sentence should read fighting an Army weaker than our own. Not fighting an Army weaker than themselves… You are comparing one Army to another not an Army to the individuals.

See, as a Commander, while not sexy editing and writing things is mostly what we do. Are you in Command of a fishing vessel or some special unit in which there is no correspondence?

Further, You already stated above you were an American and since Americans can’t by law Exercise Command in any Army other than our own (unless you can provide some reference links there).

This implies that while you (having admitted to being an American) are not fighting along with the group and therefore not the Commander at all...

Commanders don’t send people to fight they lead them to and in the fight.

The way any real Commander would have written the sentence would have read "we" then "ours". A trained Commander always takes care to include himself with the proper inclusive pronouns especially when speaking negatively about his organization. It’s called taking or at least sharing responsibility for the collective failure of the group

Like this…

While your story may be heartfelt, it does not take away from the fact that “we” are not brave but still cowards fighting a much weaker Army than “our own”.

Also, no career Military Commander would not capitalize A R M Y – LOL. I don’t buy it. I corrected that error at least 100 times a day when I was an Adjutant.

I don't believe your claim at all.

There are way too many indicators of deception in too little product.

What you have typed has more indicators of deception per sentence written than statements used as hyperbolic examples during deception detection training.

The J. Macdonald statement was more than 100 pages long and had an average 5 indicators of deception per page of typed text - it’s the training example used when teaching agents to look for classic indicators of deception.

We have like 4 sentences (maybe a paragraph of text) of yours with at least 7-10.

I feel safe in my assessment you are full of Muslims – specifically Shiite.

edit on 22/5/2012 by Golf66 because: (no reason given)

edit on 22/5/2012 by Golf66 because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 22 2012 @ 04:02 AM
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The Americans being there is wrong already in the first place.
Why you guys bother to attack hell ? I do not really know, but if you say 911, talk to your own people about it, convince yourself first before convincing others.

For those calling the Talibans cowards, shooting and run, I pretty much LOLed at you regarding military tactics and geographical advantage. Yours is conventional,it works in Iraq yes, will it will work in Afghanistan ? Hell no:

All in all, America keep sending fresh inedible meat to a helllike country that they shouldnt be in the first place, then uphold themselves as victor and the justice, later to be amputated by locals, LOL, your lost, not mine.

The one who win the war wrote the history and even the mighty Mother Russia failed in Afghanistan.
If you think the Taliban wrote the history, you also wrong by the way.
The choice has been made before you even know you have the choice - You are the next failed.

Btw, drug is prohibited in Islam, they will burn the trees I think, I'm not really sure about your troops.
Want some ?, afterall you guys have this "bong", its pretty high tech.

All in all, American soldier - A group of dumb but obedient young soldier sent by their leader to other country in name of "peacekeeping" and have trouble accepting the fact "I'M ON SOMEBODY ELSE LAWN" and "WHY AM I HERE ?"

If you guys SO and THAT brave *sic*, why not "peacekeeping" the Somalias too?
Disposable 1 time used puppets!



posted on May, 22 2012 @ 04:11 AM
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reply to post by Golf66
 


Some good points - and some good posts
But be carefull of over generalisation
I'm a commander - my English written skills suck
I spend very VERY little time in that environment
And my .........I won't say superiors ..... I'll say those of a higher rank tolerate my Written skills and attitude due to my other skills and abilities ( I'm forever getting pulled up on my military writing )

I'm a combat commander - the limit of my writing is patrol reports and annual assessments

Someone used the term REMF
Rear echelon muther f###ers

I am sf, the ability to write nicely isnt high up there in Required abilities

Makes me think about American sf ( and this is in no way a dig at you - just an observation )
Your all sf - or so you like to think
True US SF are the green berets, army delta, SEAL's ect
These are SF
The rest are SPECIALIST forcess
True special forcess don't wear a badge that says special forcess
Don't go on patrol wearing said badges
Example
Mountain units
They all wear special forcess badges, THEY ARE NOT SF !!
SPECIALIST yes !

reminds me of a time in Bosnia
Some US officer draped in SF badges turns to some Brit and says
Hey man , don't see many if your SAS here
To which the Brit replied - well your not f###ing meant to, are you

There is a big difference !

Pro
How's about we just get this settled

Most of my carrier is GENUINLY classified
However I could still fill half a page of posts with details of my carrier, experience and qualifications and will do do if some one required

How's about rather than just claiming your position you provide some substance to support it
Hell i don't care if your the commander of the girl guides
Anythings better than your claim

edit on 22-5-2012 by Neocrusader because: Auto



posted on May, 22 2012 @ 05:00 AM
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As this is a war for the corporates to secure resources ,I will not call american troops brave at all.This isn't self defence.This is corporate imperialism ,simple.Our soldiers of 1776 war of independence were way more brave than corporate soldiers today. Afghans are fighting for their independence from US forces and Taliban(indirectly armed by US forces itself).

Also ,drug production is being protected by NATO and american troops which is shameful.Sorry,this is not bravery ,but greed simple as that. My family fought in world war 2 and vietnam war.



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