If we lived forever there would be no need for religion.

reply to post by Akragon


Thanks for taking your time to explain it to me. I appreciate it! I wished every religious person would share your "liberal" approach

Originally posted by AllIsOne
reply to post by Akragon

 

Thanks for taking your time to explain it to me. I appreciate it! I wished every religious person would share your "liberal" approach

Im actually not relgious... i do enjoy religious texts though...

Its a hobby of mine... i find them facinating.

I am Anti-religion... but some truths are impossible to deny

Originally posted by Akragon

Jesus spoke very vaguely about "hell"... i believe every instance he actually spoke of hell was allegorical... Hell only exists if one has a belief of said place... The guilt of your actions within this life combined with the fear of "hell" may in fact land you in such a place when your body expires.

But...

Everyone without exception... Gains access to the after life...

All will be Saved...

edit on 19-5-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

I agree with alot of that, only one exception.
Hell is a place reserved for the devil, Satan, w/e you want to call him. And those that were foolish enough to follow such an evil being (we're talking people like Hitler [total personal judgement call, I don't know, I'm not judge...but..seriously...you can't just kill 6 million people, plus all that died in the war and etc etc..ya feel me?] and walk.)
But for us average people, those just trying to get through our daily lives...hell wasn't built for those souls. He'll take care of em if there is some kinda requirement. Elsewise, why have that "day" where he preaches the truth to the world?
In Revelation, it clearly states Jesus tells the people that they can go outside of the city, and preach to those that haven't entered yet into the presence of God. There are cleaning laws, after you've been outside the city, all kinds of stuff in there at the back side of it. What this suggests, to me anyways, is that he is long suffering, and understands we all have human emotions, like doubt. So the opprotunity for salvation is always there, even to the last day.
But yeah, hell is real. It's just not ment for human souls. It's designed for fallen angels.

With that said, I got one more rant, and I'll leave ya'll be. The question that was stated that I might pick and choose only certain aspects of the scripture. I will use the book of Luke as my counter point. In this whole book, Jesus is a forgiving and healing kinda guy. Then, in the last paragraph, he states "Those that don't believe in me are damned". It's just so out of character, it's obvious what happened. The Council of Trent re-wrote alot of the word to scare people into their churches so they could have a poor peoples' tax on those already in sufferance. This isn't the demeaner of Christ. He forgave Peter for saying he never knew him. He forgave the whole nation for putting him on the cross. But all the sudden he's damning people? Doesn't make sense. See, what these guys in Trent didn't realize is that they failed to corrupt the word, because the geniune character of the messiah reigns through the rest of the book. Even in Revelation, where again, he's telling his flock "Hey, get out there and save anyone that isn't saved yet. I don't think anyone deserves to suffer. I already did that for you."
See, Humanity's biggest problem, is a lack of forgiveness, not just to others, but to ourselves. That's why Christ was always "forgiving" people. Because they needed someone to forgive them, before they could forgive themselves. And remember, he taught us that we should learn to accept that self-forgiveness, so that we might go forth, and stop acting in a negative manner. It's easy to be evil if you think you're already damned, but it's also easy to do good, if you believe that you forgiven for the mistakes you make. He was just trying to teach us to let go of all that negative crap, and do the best we can for ourselves, and others, on any given day. Will you slip? Yep, but that's okay, we all do. And you are forgiven.
That's how I took it anyways. Hope you all enjoyed my wall of text ^.^

reply to post by Lasr1oftheJedi


I have issues with the belief of "satan" and "evil entities" that have any sort of power over us that isn't given freely...

I don't believe Satan exists... and IF he does, i believe he works with God, not against.

How does an angel oppose its creator?

Biblcally named the adversary, or the opposer... *shrug*

If he exists... i believe he is doing his job...

reply to post by Lasr1oftheJedi


I hear you about the editing of the bible. But you've actually confirmed my remark. At this point nobody knows what is the original text, versus the edited version. It's all a guessing game.

BTW: Matt, I like your cartoons

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by Lasr1oftheJedi

 

I have issues with the belief of "satan" and "evil entities" that have any sort of power over us that isn't given freely...

I don't believe Satan exists... and IF he does, i believe he works with God, not against.

How does an angel oppose its creator?

Biblcally named the adversary, or the opposer... *shrug*

If he exists... i believe he is doing his job...

edit on 19-5-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)

Totally right, as always. It's scary (not really..just a turn of phrase) how much you understand of religion. In Job, we see that indeed, Satan is nothing more than God's servant.

So here we go, "how does God let something like that (Satan) do what he does?"

God has chosen to not force love. You can't True love is a choice, not an obligation. After the events of the garden, God decided to offer us a litmus test. So, Satan gets his hour. This is for multiple reasons, and be ready my friend, another wall of text.

See, Lucifer was the highest of the angels. The Man, so to speak. He was so trusted, he was the protector of God's throne. (What the means, I don't fully understand...Just let me finish, we'll get there.). God, so trusted and loved this creation, that when he created Adam on the eighth day (humans were the sixth day. Adam was special, as his bloodline would bring the messiah...because God knows what is about to go down...we'll get to that...) he put Lucifer in charge of protecting the garden. He really wanted this place to be protected, so he put the best of the best in charge of it.

This opens up, what threat could there have been? Was it just to make sure other men didn't come and screw things up, or something else? I don't know. That's honest. What I do know, is that it was important enough to Him to put his number one in charge of the situation. Also, I believe he was testing Lucifer as much as he was testing Adam. Does that make sense? Moving on...

But Lucifer was jealous. It really pissed him off that God was taking this much time and attention to something that he saw as inferior to himself, and his brethren (in the end, a third of the angels agreed with Satan on this point.).

So, he tempted Eve, to prove a point. This point was that mankind will never accept God. That they will always follow their own desires, and fall to any temptation, no matter how dire the consequence. And technically he was right.

Okay, enough history, let's get back to topic. See, God fulfills all of our desires (though for some desires, say the crack head...that road is rough. Because your fulfillment brings consequence, just as it will for Lucifer). For Satan, it was to be God. God loves Satan so much, that He's going to give him his chance at it. That's why Satan gets his time. God literally said, "Fine, if that's what you want...here it is."

And how did Lucifer spend this awesome gift? In rebellion. In vengence. In hate for those he still deems "inferior" to himself. But like all prayer answered, there's conciquence. Sure, you can pray for something, even receive it. But there will always be an effect. For what Lucifer demaned, and received, he gets the ulitimate effect, the lake of fire.

There is no eternal torment, this is an idea from the greeks and ol' Hades. Why would a loving God burn you for eternity? He wouldn't. No...in hell as it's been called, you get dusted, removed from the existence totally. There isn't an eternal sufferance. For those that would say "well the bible says there's eternal damnation.." that's sheol and being separated from God would be a certain "hell", because you're removed from the love of existence. No love in your soul...couldn't imagine...but hell seems an apt description.

Anyways, I went all over the place there hu? Even left a few plot holes that I should recognize, but at the minute don't. I trust anything I failed to answer will be addressed, and hopefully I can fill them out. But that's the jist, so to speak, of it.

reply to post by Akragon


Oh, I see. My bad re religion!

What "truths" are you talking about? A lot of what you are saying about eternal life and stuff is only assumption. You know, I wished I'm going to see my granny again, but as far as I know she is gone ... The biological entity that once made her "being" possible has seized to function. That is the reality my friend. All other talk is wishful thinking.

I promise to have an open mind, please show me that I'm wrong. But at my age I don't take your word, or any religious texts as the truth anymore. People constantly claim to know stuff, but they don't. The Austrian philosopher Wittgenstein once said:

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent

I wished more folks would read that ...

reply to post by AllIsOne


Yeah, the bible was edited, but since God is well...God, he still managed to get his message through, despite human greed and interferance. It's proven in that he shows that forgiveness and love are the keys. They couldn't take that away, even when they tried. Does that make sense?

reply to post by Lasr1oftheJedi

Okay, enough history, let's get back to topic.

History is usually based on a few facts that can be corroborated ... er, ... And what part of Genesis are you referring to re Lucifer being the guardian of Eden?

reply to post by Lasr1oftheJedi


I don't see a loving god in the OT. But I'm sure you will explain it away with Jesus' new deal with us. But then again, who's son is he?

Originally posted by Lasr1oftheJedi
reply to post by AllIsOne

 

Yeah, the bible was edited, but since God is well...God, he still managed to get his message through, despite human greed and interferance.

Do you not see the circular logic in that statement? Anyway, don't mean to be on your case this afternoon all the time. I'm going to the park for a walk ...

Originally posted by AllIsOne
reply to post by Lasr1oftheJedi

 

Okay, enough history, let's get back to topic.

History is usually based on a few facts that can be corroborated ... er, ... And what part of Genesis are you referring to re Lucifer being the guardian?

That's easy my friend. He was the snake. Jesus told us as much. God put Lucifer in charge of the garden as a guardian. He was a serpent. A dragon. A bad mf'er, ya know? It was said in later verse he was so beautiful not all the precious stones in the world could match his beauty. He was fine and raw. Total superhero. But he turned. As for facts on the matter, well, that's a little more difficult. The earth was washed clean in Noah's day. But Noah wasn't the only survivor (or those on the boat.) Several historical documents from Mexico to the middle east to the far east all state of a great flood around the same time (with survivors..elsewise...how'd ya write it? So, more than just Noah's boat survived...but they were all so far apart, they all felt they were the lone survivors of this event). Just coincidence? I have to believe that I'm not being bsed by several, unrelated cultures.
But to show you the garden, where it is, prove it was there. I can't, openly admit it. I know it's commonly believed it was between the Tigris and Euphrates. That brings in the whole sumerian thought line. Anyways, in the end, to me, it's history. Just like 9/11 was an inside job and Peril Harbor was an American plot to sucker the Japs into a war was history to me. I suppose I should've used different terminology, but I'll be honest, my vocabulary isn't that educated.

Originally posted by AllIsOne
reply to post by Lasr1oftheJedi

 

I don't see a loving god in the OT. But I'm sure you will explain it away with Jesus' new deal with us. But then again, who's son is he?

That's because 90% of the old testament was dealing with nephilim and God's desire to end a reign of oppression of the people in the area. War requires pain...sad but true. In the end days, we'll see such aggression again. The alternative is a fate of subjection to those with might instead of heart.

Sorry if I frustrated you. Wasn't my intent. I hope you enjoy the fresh air. I know I always do when the kiddo and I hit the park up a block away.^.^

Originally posted by AllIsOne
reply to post by Akragon

 

Oh, I see. My bad re religion!

What "truths" are you talking about? A lot of what you are saying about eternal life and stuff is only assumption. You know, I wished I'm going to see my granny again, but as far as I know she is gone ... The biological entity that once made her "being" possible has seized to function. That is the reality my friend. All other talk is wishful thinking.

I promise to have an open mind, please show me that I'm wrong. But at my age I don't take your word, or any religious texts as the truth anymore. People constantly claim to know stuff, but they don't. The Austrian philosopher Wittgenstein once said:

Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent

I wished more folks would read that ...

What truths?

Oh my... there are far to many to list my friend... It would take pages for me to explain the truths i've been shown... And i say shown for a reason...

All life is guided by divine force... (and im not asking you to believe me on this) we all have our path...

Jesus called himself "the truth"... His words are litterally "spiritual gold" so to speak... but there are many who have also spoken of truth in ancient times.

When one compares His truth with the words of others... The result is always the same... Love is the key to understanding God...

IF you live with love in your life... you can see what truth is... That is actually complicated for myself to explain but to define "love"... the word that is necessary is "selflessness"...

With a humble nature... an open mind free of religous Dogma... The "truth" is obvious...

The words of Jesus are purely truth... IF that is the case, and he clearly said he was the son of God... How can one deny his words... As he said, they are from the Father...

28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

29 And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

30 As he spake these words, many believed on him.

31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;

32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

From his mouth...

The truth will set you free... and truely it does...

The truth will show you all truth.... It sets you free from religion... free from material things and desires of the flesh...

Love is truth... And in the service of your brothers you will find joy.... and peace.

reply to post by Lasr1oftheJedi

Totally right, as always. It's scary (not really..just a turn of phrase) how much you understand of religion.

Im unsure if you're being sarcastic or not...

Its hard to find a genuine person in the religious forums at times.

And in all honestly, most relgions confuse the hell out of me... especially christianity (pick a flavor) which is why i have so many questions for christians

But thank you for the compliment if i am supposed to take it as such

reply to post by Akragon


It was totally honest my man. My sarcasim isn't that clever. Read my posts, you'll see that to be true. You have an outstanding knowledge of the truth and faith..etc etc. Hell man, you wouldn't be on my friends list if I didn't think you were someone with something important to say.

If everybody lived forever some people would still look to religion for meaning in life or to help them with some of their problems in life.

reply to post by Akragon

When one compares His truth with the words of others... The result is always the same... Love is the key to understanding God...

Look, it all sounds warm and fuzzy until one starts to think. It's a load of !@#$%. How come a loving god set up this kind of system:

www.youtube.com...

How come a loving god made sure that our sun will kill everything in this solar system?

www.youtube.com...

Please explain ...

reply to post by AllIsOne


All things must have an end...

The physical world is based on decay...

Everything eventually dies...

With lower forms of life the rule is survival of the fittest... the same applies to us, but due to our spiritual nature we can overcome those lesser animal instincts...

That is one of the goals of life...

Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by AllIsOne

 

All things must have an end...

Says who? Didn't you say that energy cannot be destroyed?

The physical world is based on decay...

You're skirting the issue here. Natural decay is one thing, killing is another. I've shown you that your god has set up nature in a way that survival is based on killing. In the video you see that even the amoeba has to kill in order to survive. Where is the love-principle that you quote? I don't see it.

Everything eventually dies...

With lower forms of life the rule is survival of the fittest... the same applies to us, but due to our spiritual nature we can overcome those lesser animal instincts...

That is one of the goals of life...

You have yet to show me anything that resembles "our spiritual nature". I have shown you that all the spiritual attributes that you've mentioned before can be explained by modern neuroscience. You keep using the term without a shred of evidence to back up your claim. I'm not asking you for proof of the existence of a god. I'm just curious why you are sure that we have a spirit? Your belief must be based on something ... ???

Originally posted by AllIsOne


Why does an extended lifespan automatically prove the existence of a god?

First of all, if we could live forever, we would have been provided with a body that doesn't age or gets sick and only a creator gets to decide that.

Secondly, the only way to live forever is to eliminate sin from the earth to keep us from trying to kill each other, and once again, only God can keep that from happening too.