If we lived forever there would be no need for religion.

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posted on May, 19 2012 @ 12:31 AM
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Originally posted by windword

Originally posted by AllIsOne
reply to post by windword
 


Thank you for your answer. I would like to understand why people put so much faith in one belief system. What made you a believer in an "eternal spiritual, perfect form"?


What faith? What belief system? I didn't say that I would rely on a god, I said I would need a mentor, to help me through eternity.

I believe in reincarnation because I have memories of past lives. Very clear memories. It's wishful thinking, to think that I could duck into a pure and perfect form, when I still have so much of myself to master, but at least I have a goal.

If I'm wrong, I'll cease to exist, or be sent to hell.
But I don't believe in a god created hell. So, it's probably going to be back to drawing board, or nothing.




You wrote:


and I can assume my eternal spiritual perfect form.


That, to me, is a belief system.

I've never met anybody with past-life memories. Fascinating! When did these memories emerge?




posted on May, 19 2012 @ 12:59 AM
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Originally posted by Akragon

Originally posted by AllIsOne
reply to post by Akragon
 





Alright let me try a different approach... Yes its true, the body breaks down, eventually turning to nothing but dust...


Yes. That is demonstrably so.




but...

YOU are more then just meat.... IF you are your body... why do you have little to no control over it?


It is similar to a computer. There are many biological processes that run entirely in the background. Evolution has "automated" these processes. It's called the autonomic nervous system. It is fairly well understood in medicine: www.pennmedicine.org...





The body needs fuel... to maintain itself... so you feed it... the body needs warmth... shelter... Water... so you provide it with said materials...

But what can you actually control within your body?

Can you stop your own heart without phyiscal damage?

Control hair growth?

Can you stop your bowels? Give it a try...


Check my link above and your questions will be answered. Medicine has advanced since 1800.



Can you control the eventual breakdown and death of it?


Ageing, the breakdown of your organs at the molecular level and ultimately organ failure is part of any biological entity. Modern medicine and a healthy lifestyle have advanced our life span by many decades.




The body is mearly a vehical for the spirit...


Says who? Are you familiar with current neuro-science?




once the body breaks down, the spirit is released... and we return to where we all came from...



No offense, but I think you're jumping the gun a bit. There is nothing the "spirit" can do, that neuro-science couldn't explain. Feel free to list something that only a human with a "spirit" could accomplish.



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 01:14 AM
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reply to post by AllIsOne
 


Honestly, my brother, I loved every word you stated until you suggested the bible contradicted it. So let me open with this,
A) thanks, you obviously read all my posts. not many take that time.
B) thank you for being a kind soul. It's easy to dismiss blessings.
and C) is about to get me on the wrong side (just personal experience. I am in no way suggestion you're "that guy"...let's just say, you get punched in the face enough..you learn to block. Does that make sense?...I don't know...sorry, and anyways), but i'll say it anyways, there's nothing in the bible that suggest what I leave behind is "meaningless".

I assume (which makes an ass outta me, no doubt) that I took that statement wrong. I'm just saying, I've read it, front and back, and side to side. Translation through translation...greek, hebrew..you name it. My life has meaning. God does give a (bleep!) about what I do. If he didn't, why would he spare me? Easy to just end at the telephone pole, no doubt.

I don't post this to argue, I honestly don't...I just don't want you to believe that my life was circumstance. Because it isn't. I've had a real beautiful run. Even you can see that life isn't coincidence. Was christianity right? Well, I don't know about it's portrayal. It's hateful, and uninspired IMHO. But to those of us that understand a little (as there's no way you grasp all of God) of what we were told on how to treat others...what was done for us...But true christianity...true forgiveness and understanding about the sacrifice made that day. Well, it's mind blowing.

But again, I'm a bible belt baby. Obviously influenced. So, I can see the "influence" point of view.

I leave it at this. Maybe I don't know spit..but I know there is a divine being in this world, in this existence. And he gave enough a care about me to let me survive the impossible, and that, he bless me in a way that most in this world world would do some nasty thing for without me ever having to be a part of such nastiness.

A final note, you do not, nor never will, offend me for openly discussing this matter. We don't ever have to agree on it, my G. Just as you can look through my friends list, not many of them are on the same page as my belief system.

I didn't come to ATS to convert. I believe God speaks in his own way to individuals individually. But I do, honestly, appreciate the discussion. Without the mud slings that too often take place. That alone I can respect, and you too, have made my friends list. Just because, you atleast had the intelligence to not shout me down just because you didn't agree with me. And also had the intelligence, to discus the matter openly with me.
edit on 19-5-2012 by Lasr1oftheJedi because: spelling, what else is it ever? ^.~
edit on 19-5-2012 by Lasr1oftheJedi because: on C i did the darn thing backwards... ) instead of (. You'd think i'd catch it in the first spell check, but ya know..spell check doesn't account for ignorance. heh...I just insulted myself. That's worth a chuckle, right?
edit on 19-5-2012 by Lasr1oftheJedi because: that third to last paragraph was rough wasn't it? -.-;



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 01:20 AM
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reply to post by AllIsOne
 



I was real psychic as a little kid. I often would say someone was calling, then the phone would ring. Freaked my mom right out. I remember asking her how soon grandma was coming with the donuts. Mom told me "Grandma's not coming over," then she showed up with donuts! Freaked mom out again!

I remember I was in kindergarten, and a woman was so impressed with my "Thailand" style dancing, that I knew how to do, with little cymbles on my fingers, and striking poses, that she hired me and dressed me up to dance at parties.

Then my mom started taking me a hypnotist, who tried to compartmentalize my memories. She presented me with different houses in which to place my memories.

I don't remember when I first started telling my family about my past lives, but, I remember being sent to the principals office in 4th grade for talking about Buddha, and then making a Buddha bust out of paper mache in art class. Not OK back then! It was a beautiful bust and my mom destroyed it right in front of me. We were Assembly of God Pentecostals, and I had never been exposed to Buddhism. That's when my mom started telling me that Buddhist were evil, and she took me to our preacher to cast the devil out of me, more than once.

Well, all that was more than a half century ago, and since then I have had many, many memory experiences.


edit on 19-5-2012 by windword because: (no reason given)



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 01:30 AM
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reply to post by Lasr1oftheJedi
 


Thanks for your reply!

Let me clarify what I wrote. I'm sorry it was ambiguous.



At the end of the day it doesn't matter what you believe in. It's the life you live and the legacy that you leave behind. I know the Bible says differently, but so be it ...



John 14:6.


Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


According to the Bible, you only get to heaven if you believe in Jesus. One can lead a righteous, moral life, but without the explicit belief in Jesus the gates will stay locked, and you will have to take the elevator down
This is where this man-made stuff gets confusing for me! Jesus was all about love, but that is clearly not enough to make it to heaven ...



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 01:36 AM
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reply to post by windword
 


Wow, what a story. Thanks for sharing! I hope you know that your mom was conditioned to act that way ... She still loved you


As you can see from my previous post I also studied Buddhism for years. It opened up mental doors and did away with the Roman-Catholic guild-trip.



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 01:49 AM
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reply to post by AllIsOne
 


Okay, first, Jesus didn't say that. John did. I don't take the apostles for ultimate knowledge because honestly, they were just working off the best of what they figured.
Is accepting Christ the only way into heaven? Yep.
But before you start shaking your head, hear me out.
He also said that for those that never heard the true doctrine, that he would handle them personally in the "day of the Lord" which most believe to be thousand year stint. Is it? don't know. Don't care. It doesn't matter in the end whether it's a day or a thousand years, because if he's legit, then you'll see it with your own eyes.
Then, that's some hard stuff to discount, no?
Here's my bottom line thought on the matter. The man took the cross and forgave em' for it. He's not going to just send someone to hell because they questioned whether they were being bull#ted or not (infact, he demanded we keep our eyes open, so not to be deceived by con-artists) .
This man, this deity, Christ, is going to have the patience and love to sit down with you, yes you, and explain some things out. That's who he is, that's what he does. Don't judge him on the words his people wrote after the fact. They don't know. He did. Read what he said on the matter. That's all I ask.
Well, that, and don't believe in this false messiah coming, because he'll try to bs you into believing he's the messiah. But the true Christ, just as in his time, didn't need world powers, or acceptance (infact, he was pretty hated at the time for his preaching).
He doesn't care about that nonsense. He cares about you. The individual. Now, I'm not saying the new testament outside of christ is wrong. But anything that suggests that the cross, and the gospel he preached needed "more"...well, sorry man, I don't buy it.



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 02:07 AM
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reply to post by Lasr1oftheJedi
 


Interesting explanation. I have to say it's so confusing for a non-Christian to comprehend the logic in accepting certain parts of the bible as the truth and then rejecting others. But I won't beat a dead horse.

Good talking with you!



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 02:15 AM
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reply to post by AllIsOne
 



Feel free to list something that only a human with a "spirit" could accomplish.


Intelligence

Consciousness

Rational understanding

Logic

Empathy

Compassion

Love




posted on May, 19 2012 @ 02:23 AM
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reply to post by AllIsOne
 



According to the Bible, you only get to heaven if you believe in Jesus. One can lead a righteous, moral life, but without the explicit belief in Jesus the gates will stay locked, and you will have to take the elevator down This is where this man-made stuff gets confusing for me! Jesus was all about love, but that is clearly not enough to make it to heaven


One of the misconceptions of his teachings...

IF one believes in his teachings, they follow his commandments...

A hard path to walk, but not unattainable in the least




posted on May, 19 2012 @ 02:55 AM
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Originally posted by Akragon
reply to post by AllIsOne
 



Feel free to list something that only a human with a "spirit" could accomplish.


Intelligence

Consciousness

Rational understanding

Logic

Empathy

Compassion

Love



There was a time when I thought all your points where bullet-proof indicators for a "ghost in the machine" theory. It isn't so. But don't take my word for it! Neuroscience has pretty much demystified the old paradigm and shows that a biological super computer, aka human brain, is capable of generating a "soul" with mentioned attributes. Believe me, it is truly shocking. Not many are brave enough to read up on the latest findings, and face the truth. I invite you to do so. A good start would be this book by Prof. Owen Flanagan: www.amazon.com...

It's a difficult read, but very interesting indeed.




Science has always created problems for traditional ways of seeing things, but now the very attributes that make us human--free will, the permanence of personal identity, the existence of the soul--are threatened by the science of the mind. If the mind is the brain, and therefore a physical object subject to deterministic laws, how can we have free will? If most of our thoughts and impulses are unconscious, how can we be morally responsible for what we do? If brains and bodies undergo relentless change, how can our identities be constant? The Problem of the Soul shows the way out of these paradoxes. Framing the conflict in terms of two dominant visions of the mind--the "manifest image" of humanistic philosophy and theology, and the scientific image--Owen Flanagan demonstrates that there is common ground, and that we need not give up our ideas of moral responsibility and personal freedom in order to have an empirically sound view of the human mind. This is a profoundly relevant work of philosophy for the common reader.



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 04:12 AM
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Originally posted by deckdel
reply to post by AllIsOne
 


If we lived forever, then we'd pray the God to kill us, and relieve us from this hell.


The bible does talk of a time where people will want to die but will not be able.
I could show you some scripture if you'd like.



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 10:46 AM
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Originally posted by AllIsOne

If we lived forever would there be a need for a God? I doubt it.


If we lived forever, we would already know that there is a God. So, no, we wouldn't need religion because we would already have the answers and we would be living without corrupt interference because we would be already living with God.



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 12:02 PM
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Originally posted by Deetermined

Originally posted by AllIsOne

If we lived forever would there be a need for a God? I doubt it.


If we lived forever, we would already know that there is a God. So, no, we wouldn't need religion because we would already have the answers and we would be living without corrupt interference because we would be already living with God.


Why does an extended lifespan automatically prove the existence of a god?



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 12:05 PM
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reply to post by Akragon
 


I can't follow your train of thought. What misconception on my part?



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 12:58 PM
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reply to post by AllIsOne
 


Its a very philosophical question that raises more questions the more one contemplates an answer - and therein lies the conundrum - seems to me that there is no definitive answer, only a concept of your take on reality if you can visualise living forever.

How do you reconcile immortality, infinity, no beginning & no end and so on and at the same time acknowledge a creator being or God and then transmute that acknowledgement into a religion or philosophy.

To me religion implies that more than one person is involved in your take on your philosophy, if not and its just you - the infinite immortal, then is it a religion or a personal philosophy?

Being immortal, in my mind, would place God in the same category as "Barry down the road" - a person you know who has a pretty good/crap job who just happens to create mortal limited capability beings for a living before recycling their energy/soul/spirit again until he's happy to give them what you already have - immortality.





posted on May, 19 2012 @ 01:29 PM
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reply to post by AllIsOne
 


I believe we do live forever and that is why there is a need for religion. Where do you want to end up?



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 01:54 PM
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reply to post by Sublimecraft
 


Thanks for your thoughts!



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 01:58 PM
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Originally posted by rjbaggins
reply to post by AllIsOne
 


I believe we do live forever and that is why there is a need for religion. Where do you want to end up?


What is your believe based on? If I told you that my best friend is the green pig that circles the moon every two minutes, would you believe me? Oh, and I have proof because I read about that pig in a book ...

I hope I didn't offend you, but I wonder why people claim we live forever? I haven't seen anybody coming back from the dead.



posted on May, 19 2012 @ 02:40 PM
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Originally posted by AllIsOne
reply to post by Akragon
 


I can't follow your train of thought. What misconception on my part?


This was your statement...


According to the Bible, you only get to heaven if you believe in Jesus. One can lead a righteous, moral life, but without the explicit belief in Jesus the gates will stay locked, and you will have to take the elevator down This is where this man-made stuff gets confusing for me! Jesus was all about love, but that is clearly not enough to make it to heaven


IF you lead a righteous moral life... you already believe in what Jesus taught... you don't even need to know who he is... Mans moral compass is within his/her heart... Those that listen to their inner voice follow God... as he did.

Jesus spoke very vaguely about "hell"... i believe every instance he actually spoke of hell was allegorical... Hell only exists if one has a belief of said place... The guilt of your actions within this life combined with the fear of "hell" may in fact land you in such a place when your body expires.

But...

Everyone without exception... Gains access to the after life...

All will be Saved...



edit on 19-5-2012 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



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