U.S. man held hostage by al Qaeda, appeals to Obama in video

reply to post by bo12au

Well, I thank you for your service. It's quite possible you and my brother in law were in the same places at the same times. His high point of the Iraq period was Haifa Street. I don't imagine you were in the area for that little battle? Anyway.... I'll move on. I didn't mean to cause an issue here and yes, we absolutely and 110% disagree on some things. If trying to suggest a few ideas which make the Muslims over there look like something less than rabid killers, to the last person, brings this kind of a reaction...there are issues here.

I'd note something though....while you're at it. Iraq's current population is listed as: 31,129,225 (July 2012 est.). The source if the CIA Fact book on Iraq. Folks tend to look at the CIA as all knowing...so that is one source I wouldn't expect heavily questioned on a cold data point like that.

If even a small % of those 31 Million people had been militant and among the Jihadi Fighters you and the rest of our men were fighting, no U.S. Soldier would have gotten out of that nation alive unless permitted to leave...deliberately. 31 MILLION people.....wouldn't even take very long, for how undermanned and woefully resourced that war was from Day 1.

However.... I've said my piece. Some hate the Muslims with a passion that borders on disturbing. I hate the Muslims that hate ME. I consider the Jury to be out on any that don't show hostility...and a few have become rather close friends.

Not every Muslim is a radical fundamentalist, and that was my only point. With 1.5 billion Muslims in the world, we'd all be outnumbered to the point of being stomped into bloody mush if all of those folks were equally vicious, violent and out for our heads. Have a good night though.

Those demands do seem a bit over the top for one man. Do these people actually think they have a bargaining chip with some 70 year old man? I'm not saying I don't feel for the guy, it sucks, but I can't believe these people actually think these demands will be met.

reply to post by Jagermeister


No they don’t and that is the point

They know that there demands can never be met but they know that if they drag this out and play to the media the right way they have a potential for massive propaganda that is why they are making such outrageous demands. Eventually when they do decide to have him beheaded they will post the video on the internet and again even more propaganda.

Originally posted by Jagermeister
Those demands do seem a bit over the top for one man. Do these people actually think they have a bargaining chip with some 70 year old man? I'm not saying I don't feel for the guy, it sucks, but I can't believe these people actually think these demands will be met.

Although I must say, if Zawahiri is speaking on this issue, that is worrisome for my first thought of settling for money. I guess I wasn't paying attention to the article well... perhaps I am wrong in this instance. That adds a twist there. I edited my entire post because of that.

If he is speaking on this something more is happening. The man may die.

reply to post by Jameela


I must say I do find it funny how you and i both put forward a answer to that question and both had entirely different answers.

I am going to assume you are alleging that this 70 year old gentleman is a CIA agent, do you have any evidence to back up this allegation or are you basing this on your own speculation.

EDIT: I wrote this after your edit Its nice to see a member who can change his view in the face of reviewing the evidence.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by Jameela

 

I must say I do find it funny how you and i both put forward a answer to that question and both had entirely different answers.

I am going to assume you are alleging that this 70 year old gentleman is a CIA agent, do you have any evidence to back up this allegation or are you basing this on your own speculation.

EDIT: I wrote this after your edit

edit on 8-5-2012 by OtherSideOfTheCoin because: (no reason given)

No, I do not think he is CIA, if you know the mention of the CIA man was in a past incident with the Government of Pakistan where he was exchanged for money.

But exchanges have happened before, usually for money although with other western countries in those instances.

I edited my entire post because I had not realized Zawahiri was speaking on this. First, this man might not just some 70 year old man, they must think they have somebody... somebody of value. Or they wouldn't be treating it like this, ie: Zawahiri would not be speaking. This is my own speculation however.

second, you are right, if Zawahiri is speaking, the man will probably die. This is some kind of ploy, and has nothing to do with the man, everything about attention.

And thank you for the compliment

reply to post by Jameela


By the very fact that he has an American passport they think that they have someone of importance as any American hostage is of massive propaganda importance to Al-Qa’ida. I am curious about what CIA hostage for money case you are talking about as I have never heard of Al-Qa’ida taking a CIA agent hostage and then releasing him for ransom back to America if you have a link I could peruse it would be most appreciated.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by Jameela

 

By the very fact that he has an American passport they think that they have someone of importance as any American hostage is of massive propaganda importance to Al-Qa’ida. I am curious about what CIA hostage for money case you are talking about as I have never heard of Al-Qa’ida taking a CIA agent hostage and then releasing him for ransom back to America if you have a link I could peruse it would be most appreciated.

it was specifically the Pakistani government who was holding the CIA man... here I will link you... he killed two people.

www.thenational.ae...

reply to post by Jameela


Ahhh yeah I suspected you were referring to the Raymond Davis case that was all very messy.

It is important though to remember that there is a massive difference between paying blood money to have a prisoner held by a foreign state released and paying to have a hostage form a terrorist organisation released. It is also worth remembering that a ransom does not feature in Al-Qa’ida’s demands.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by Jameela

 

Ahhh yeah I suspected you were referring to the Raymond Davis case that was all very messy.

It is important though to remember that there is a massive difference between paying blood money to have a prisoner held by a foreign state released and paying to have a hostage form a terrorist organisation released. It is also worth remembering that a ransom does not feature in Al-Qa’ida’s demands.

Actually ransom figure with the Pakistani Wahabi groups as this is a common occurrence for money. It is usually foreign nationals they get taken and held ransom but there have been instances of foreigners, specifically one Frenchman in 2009 followed by 2 Swiss tourists. They usually want money.

reply to post by Jameela



Yes but not Al’Qa-ida.

Originally posted by OtherSideOfTheCoin
reply to post by Jameela

 

Yes but not Al’Qa-ida.

There is NO difference, Al-qaeda is not a group! all you have are a bunch of small wahabi groups who call themselves by different names, Muslim Brotherhood, Islamic Jihad, Sipah-e-Sahaba the list can go on...

but they are all Wahabis, which is a sect/school of thought in sunni islam, (one of 5 or 6 main schools of thought in sunni Islam) goes by the name Salafi or Ahl al Sunnah wal Jamaah, all the same sect... we just call them Wahabis, and they make local militant groups...NOT that every member of the sect is in a militant group, but every militant sunni group follows the same form of Islam found in that school. They make local militant groups, for local militant purposes.

the name Al Qaeda is not a specific name found in our countries, it was the United States government that was the first one to even use that name, before the united states used the name it did not even exist...

because it had high media coverage as an actual group, some groups adopted the name, but then it was because it already had media coverage, and because Americans were afraid of the name... but before this it wasn't the name for any of their groups...

I have a hard time relating the name al-Qaeda to anyone because of this

there is no group in Pakistan called Al Qaeda....not now, not ever...Zawahiri uses the name, because he likes the fact of the media coverage associated with that name... other groups have too, but in their own countries they are still their own names, whether that be Sippa e Sahaba or any other name... it is only in media to the west they use the name al Qaeda, although that is changing some because Zawahiri loves the media so much.

The Muslim Brotherhood is the closest thing to the average westerners version of what Al-Qaeda is. And I am sure they took the idea from the wests idea of an al-Qaeda group. Now there are chapters of the Muslim Brotherhood in various countries. So as far as an organization that spans across countries and communicates, the Brotherhood would be it. But as far as Al-Qaeda, that is still only the dream of the west, and still does not exist in reality. (although the name a wonderful scapegoat for anything since no such group really exists. Unless of course you want to say al Qaeda are those people who listen to the teachings of Zawahiri, but even that will not clarify who al-Qaeda is in my opinion. It does appear a couple of the Pakistani militant wahabi groups have taken a liking to him, Taliban does also... but these people are still not al Qaeda, they are Taliban and whatever groups they are called in their local areas.

reply to post by Jameela


It becomes very difficult with me to continue a debate on terrorism when this conspiracy agenda kicks in. The problem is that when the other party to the debate, in this case you, denies the very existence of Al-Qa’ida it is then almost impossible for me to discuss Al-Qa’ida with you without first having to prove to you that Al-Qa’ida exists that is very difficult when the other party ignores all evidence. How can I be expected to have a conversation with you about something which you believe does not exit.

I could start to go on just now about how the name Al-Qa’ida really first emerged in the minutes of a meeting in august 1988 where Bin Laden and his associates formally created the organisation known as “Al-Qa’ida” or talk about what various authors have to say about when the name first came across the desk of the intelligence communities. Now the conspiracy theorists hear will probably start to quote Jason Burke form the BBC documentary “power of Nightmares” to tell me I am wrong and it was America that came up with the name. Then I will tell you to go read Burkes book and articles that put his words into contest and show that he does in fact believe that Al-Qa’ida does exist so pretty soon you will start quoting random websites. Then I could start talking about what the 9/11 commission has to say about Al-Qa’ida but then you would tell me that the commission is a lie and a cover up.

For the record, the Muslim Brotherhood is not a designated terrorist organisation.

All of the above however is off topic so I wish to avoid it the topic at hand is the taking of this hostage by Al-Qa’ida. You appear to have this strange idea that the reason behind this hostage taking may be for financial gain. Al-Qa’ida has never taken a hostage for financial gain there is no historical precedent for your hypothesis. Taking into account the demands that have been made and the role of the Al-Qa’ida leader I would say it is a safe bet they are using this hostage for propaganda means only and will within the next 6 months have him beheaded.

The Muslim Brotherhood is a terrorist organization in some of its chapters still, Hamas is Muslim Brotherhood, so it depends upon what part of the Brotherhood you are speaking. In many countries all of the Brotherhood is on a terrorist list it is only the United States that has declared that the Egyptian and Syrian branches of the Muslim Brotherhood is not...and this is because the "Brotherhood has changed their ways" (I am also the tooth fairy, and I will consider them terrorists til the day I die I am certain.)

As far as al- Qaeda, if one such does exist and it was in fact Bin Laden who started it, then please explain why the Taliban never called themselves al Qaeda since they were funded and part of Bin Laden's little group. This is my question, because no one who was around Bin Laden every day called themselves Al Qaeda.

Also, if you speak with people who live in the swat district, not one of them will tell you al Qaeda is there, they will say Taliban has come from Afghanistan, they will tell you many things about the groups there, yet never once do they say al Qaeda is there. And they have to protect themselves against the extremist wahabi groups who are there every day. Yet is this not the district that they keep saying in the media where al Qaeda is? I could be wrong but to my knowledge this is the area the media keeps referring to when they say they got some al qaeda member or other.

I am going by personal experience in my life. Not by books written by men in the United States intelligence. I have never read books written by US government personnel on the topic, nor have I ever felt the need to.

I am not a conspiracy theorist perse, although I think the west has way too much interference in my own country and in countries in the ME. I also think the Americans are giving away all their rights. But of course these are also my experiences and my opinions.

And I will agree with you that the man will most likely die. Zawahiri is insane. His goal is the media coverage and fear factorization.