Sudan's Bashir offers to help form new Libyan army,Says Gaddafi's ousting was a gift to Sudan

reply to post by Wrabbit2000

I got that from the few Journalists and Libyan citizens who managed to get lengthy stories out about Libya in the many years before the World decided it's leader needed to be murdered in the street.

I have read this claim from many pro Libyan rebel supporters although they never could back up there statements i am not saying your lying but i dont believe you.

If you think you can try and change my opinion and swing me to the other side its not going to work. I have seen people like that on YouTube using this same tactic and claiming all these things trying swing people to there side.

Thee only real Arab Spring that i believe exists is in Bahrain and the KSA protesters against the ruling family.

reply to post by Agent_USA_Supporter

Well... I'm running out the door now. I have a Term project I have all of 25 1/2 hours to complete for an amnesty turn in. It won't be coming today and I won't even be on tonight or tomorrow. This post and thread is sitting at the top of my personal profile though and I have those references and one dating back years before Libya was even a note in the news again. I just have to find them among the thousands of bookmarks I have and ..geeze.. where the heck did I put that one obscure link?

Either way.... I'll get back to this and I will post the source I'm thinking of specifically in what I said. It really did make an interesting enough read to stick with me all this time. It was one of the investigative types who got into Libya as a 'guest' and published several pages of expose' when he came back out.

No biggy on not believing though..and fair enough when I haven't the time left or the ability right now to find what I'm talking about.

Kinda odd...this whole thing though.. I'm coming back to prove I'm right about only one very narrow thing. Libya's population had a serious fear going about the national leadership and Ghaddafi as the head of it. Everything else...I tend to think Libya was a weird little nation, but one we had no business messing with. The world never had the right to go into that nation REGARDLESS of what was happening, anyway. Unless it crossed the borders, it was an internal problem..not the world's.

I will be back with that expose' article though. Some might really find it a good read for recent historical context on the society we helped destroy.

Quick mini-reply:

Do you really think and believe NATO or Sen John McCain cares about the Libyan people? they care about the interest.

Of course they care. They care a great deal. They absolutely CARE about the Libyan people getting in their way for raping that little nation for the endless WATER sitting under it. In a region where water is far more valuable than Oil to the people who live there, Libya was Saudi Arabia for it. Now....well...They had it stolen pretty brutally, didn't they? Anyway... talk to ya on that other thing in a day or two.

Originally posted by michaelbrux
reply to post by Agent_USA_Supporter

 

been around these types of places for years. surface info...yeah, got it.

but I don't know what bilderberg is...

saying that name is like telling me that the elks or moose lodge has annual meetings...or that TKE is having a kegger tonight...

you guys talk a lot but provide nothing of substance.

you can laugh it away but perhaps this is a contributing factor to why people, sheople, are beginning to turn away from your message and do other things.

Here you go bro...

The Bilderberg Group, Bilderberg conference, or Bilderberg Club is an annual, unofficial, invitation-only conference of approximately 120 to 140 guests from North America and Western Europe, most of whom are people of influence.[1] About one-third are from government and politics, and two-thirds from finance, industry, labour, education and communications. Meetings are closed to the public.

Wiki

Home Page

I had no idea that they actually had their own page

reply to post by Juggernog


you posted the very information i criticized in my earlier posts.

i asked...who and what is the bilderbergs?

i could find excerpts about any greek letter frat, the moose or elk lodge or those old guys that I see with the american legion badges that say just as much as you did.

you haven't told me anything but you want me to be concerned.

reply to post by michaelbrux


I didnt say anything to you about being concerned, you asked who they were and I pointed out some links, if you cant take it from there and do some research, then I dont know what to tell you.

reply to post by Juggernog


tell me that the bilderberg is not at all a threat and that if someone knows nothing at all about them it won't make a practical difference in their lives.

reply to post by michaelbrux


Well, if you want my personal thoughts on it then Ill give you that. Its an annual meeting that takes place in different places each year, I believe this year its in VA.
Between 120 and 150 of the most influential politicians and businessmen from Europe and N. America are invited, there are no press allowed, the meeting is completely confidential and none of the topics are ever shared with the public.
Some believe that this is a place where World affairs are discussed and possibly carried out. Who knows though, hell they could be sitting around watching porn (or making it) and laughing at all of us that are wondering wtf they do in there.
Of course people say the same about the Bohemian Club in California and the Illuminati.

reply to post by Juggernog


and based on what you've said, which part of it would justify action against it?

I don't know what my neighbors are doing but sometimes its loud and it involves people that don't live here.

are these bilderbergs holding something that belongs to you and refuse to return it?

reply to post by michaelbrux


You arent even trying to have a rational conversation, cya.

Originally posted by michaelbrux
reply to post by Juggernog

 

tell me that the bilderberg is not at all a threat and that if someone knows nothing at all about them it won't make a practical difference in their lives.

You do know this is ATS right?

Ahh.. What do ya know. Enough headaches in my house tonight to make studying a little unrealistic anyway. Might as well finish what I started here. First, unfortunately, the expose' I had bookmarked is a 404. Here is what it USED to be..if anyone has a Deja Vu archive site or something which may have a record of it. It was very good reading.

"sofloox . com/ peaceful-life-in-libya-before-the-war. html" (this link is where it used to be. It doesn't work now. Again, if someone finds a net archive with that article, I'd almost pay for a copy of it. ...oh I wish I saved it then)

Anyway..Not to leave empty handed, I spent an hour or so digging over Google Archives for similar material and located a few items to demonstrate the darker side of Gaddafi. In order to get this material WITHOUT the modern "hate libya' propaganda thrown in to blur everything, I set search parameters for the early 90's through about 2004/2006 depending on which search I was running.

First item comes from 2003 and shows how kids in Libya came up in school. Interesting outlook they have...and not necessarily a bad thing in SOME ways.. I mean, Liberals would drop dead in shock, but American schools had REAL GUNS in the class room and weapons safety in High School just a few decades ago. Hell., I took a rifle to show and tell in Junior High...about 1986 or so. SO this is how they did it:

Crossing Continents meets Libyan schoolchildren, who long to be accepted by the international community, but are surrounded by reminders of a sinister past.

"We are like any teenager in the UK," says Amira who even admits to listening to Britney Spears. "We are all the same."

That seems fair enough until you notice that all these girls are wearing military uniform to school.

Each week they have a lesson in military matters, from military law to how to hold a gun, with some basic practice thrown in.

Source
(BBC April, 2003)

The article goes on with photos to describe the Murals in the classrooms depicting Anti-American, Anti-UK and general Anti-West art work. Interesting class room there. I never thought of having scenes of combat and political propaganda as school wall art.

Here is another showing the extent and degree Gaddafi rules his society. Right down to being such a force in life there that the very DATE was a matter of some uncertainty and changed from one listing to another based on the situation.

Officially it is 1369. But just two years ago Libya was living through 1429. No one can quite name the day when the count changed, especially since both remain in play.

A newspaper headline last week, for example, heralded the latest legal bulletin, No. 4 for 1431, while the paper itself was dated 1369. Event organizers throw up their hands and put the Western year in parenthesis somewhere on their announcements. Other Libyans just throw up their hands.

Sometimes it seems that two Libyas exist and rarely intersect.

There is Colonel Qaddafi's Libya, a rich oil state that craves recognition on the world stage. That Libya used to attract attention by underwriting a host of violent groups deemed criminal by the West, but it tired of its status as international pariah. That Libya has been seeking redemption lately by playing the village elder who will unify Africa.

The other Libya is the country where the rest of the four million to five million Libyans actually live. No one seems to know quite how many there are. Their roads are potholed, their telephones unreliable and the young lack meaningful jobs.

Source
(New York Times, Feb 2001)

Finally, I've included a link to a gallery of sorts. These are but a few of the people Gaddafi decided the world would be better without, and had shot. Things like that happened there....frequently by the reports from before the time the entire world hated the place.

Some of the victims of Libyan Government Policy

Now of course, as I mentioned before, I believe Libya ALSO had very GOOD aspects and I didn't hear about most of that until the war was going..or after he was dead. Sad on that..because he was a damned GOOD leader in some ways (by all reports of how Libya operated) at the same time he was among the worst. A real nation of contradictions..but as much good as bad.

There was absolutely NO reason or need to hunt Gaddafi down and murder him in the street the way the rebels did. That was a dark day for every nation claiming to have wanted change in Libya. They got change alright, I just seriously doubt that change was anything the population WANTED in hindsight. They have it now though, like it or not.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


Your sources are weak and they to me are known propagandist news networks, if you dont know on what i meant. lets just look at the titles at the new source you posted.
NY Times
Libya Under Qaddafi: Disarray Is the Norm

Growing up in Gaddafi's Libya

Now since i know you read them, did you catch this phrase?

Some Arab governments might arrest people for similar jokes, but Libya is not a sinister place on that scale. It is closed, though. The most important issues, like an accounting for all the oil revenue, never make it to the people.

Then This.

But Colonel Qaddafi plans to declare his own U.S.A., the United States of Africa, at a conference in March at Surt, on the Libyan coast, and to base an African congress there.

Remember even the NY times you Article you posted have stated this claim quote.
The overseas opposition has largely disbanded. Young Libyans visiting Internet cafes make furtive efforts to call up the opposition Web sites but find little of interest.

So what you have there is clearly propaganda, i am sorry if you cant see it through i cant blame you for that.

Remember the protests happened in Benghazi and i too have been following the protests from many sources and i had noticed something more rather practical interesting.


Around when the protests started i followed Euro news on YouTube and to my surprise they have been reporting from the Benghazi Port shores.

And in one of there footage's i saw a cargo ship.

To my mind i said what if they brought all the ex Libyans and terrorists into libya with that benghazi?
Wrabbit2000 Please watch this.

Notice how that footage from YouTuibe is been included? and where they claim that protests were started over a arrest of an opposition figure? and that led to the libyan conflict?

Amateur footage:YouTube

Watch that clip from this time
0:02 0:14

Notice how in the first few minutes of the start of the clips how people running but the clip doesnt show the supposed gunner?

The media started this war Wrabbit2000.


From your BBC source

"America is the leader of international terrorism".

And whats wrong with that statement? isn't that the true?



Also i find this one line from your BBC news link i thought this was laughable here read it for yourself.

Rima lives for the latest Hollywood movies: "I like Antonio Banderas - and Mel Gibson is my favourite.

And she likes what? Larry king

"I watch the Cartoon Network. And we get BBC World and Discovery Channel."

My friend that was clear propaganda that you read there.

reply to post by Wrabbit2000


About your third link a lot of the links within the link are either dead or dont exist anymore and

(published by Libyan opposition group NFSL. ) At least Gaddafi wasn't like Saddam or that Crazy Jimmy in North Korea.

reply to post by Agent_USA_Supporter


Nifty.... Setting me as a foe earlier was probably appropriate. I spent some time to fulfill what I said I would in coming back to this thread later. Much sooner than I'd first expected actually, as this Font project due tonight (18 hours.. ugh) isn't going so hot. Anyway... I feel like I could have spent 3's the time and another FULL message (I actually hit the Character limit on that..,even for me, that is notable. ) and you still would have just brushed it all aside with a few casual comments and a shake of your head.

I do appreciate the opportunity to post what I believe to be the accurate state of affairs as it existed for most of my lifetime...and as I watched it on the evening news as things happened clear back into the 80's. I posted what I could find in the recent past history for some context. My opinions and what I believe about Ghaddafi and Libya are formed from a lifetime. Not the last 2 years of sheer madness in the international community. Now if you're Libyan or have some more relevant experience to this than the same lifetime or so spent watching events and hearing the news, I'm wide open to being corrected and actually opening up to learn more from a source....vs a debate adversary.

Oh well... I did say I'd come back and the one time I said that and didn't...I learned never to even consider such a thing again. So there it be and here I be...gone.

Originally posted by michaelbrux
reply to post by Juggernog

 

and based on what you've said, which part of it would justify action against it?

I don't know what my neighbors are doing but sometimes its loud and it involves people that don't live here.

are these bilderbergs holding something that belongs to you and refuse to return it?

Oh, I don't know. Maybe, the fact we are supposed to be living in a democracy is reason enough to justify action against it? You are a-ok with the plutocracy and political elites collaborating to further gain and secure their own power and wealth? Uhhhhhhh Not in my world.

reply to post by KillThePoor


at least i'm beginning to more clearly understand people's position. i feel more empowered, thank you.

at times i feel bad about my extreme beliefs, but now I feel they are justified.

it seems clear that although you frame your beliefs in terms of political and social concepts...its just conspiracy to commit murder and armed robbery and a laundry list of other crimes against people who you have not shown stole their wealth or acquired it in some other illegal way; but because they have secret parties which they didn't invite you to.