9/11: Where the evidence has led me so far

reply to post by petrus4


From your last remarks it seems unlikely that you have read the report published last year by Warren Stutt and Frank Legge which is an analysis of the last few seconds of data from AA 77's recovered flight data recorder ;-

www.journalof911studies.com...

reply to post by zerozero00
Really, where to start? He purports to be a 'student', of what were not sure. After 8 pages of well thought out, reasoned responses from many open minded individuals, his reponse is, we're stupid for not seeing the facts. Exactly! Where's the proof to support his assertion that the OS is correct? Of all these A-holes, he's the most irritating.

Click here to learn more about this warning.

Originally posted by Alfie1
reply to post by petrus4

 

From your last remarks it seems unlikely that you have read the report published last year by Warren Stutt and Frank Legge which is an analysis of the last few seconds of data from AA 77's recovered flight data recorder ;-

www.journalof911studies.com...

There are altimeter errors, position report errors, and timing discrepancies mentioned, to quote the exact words in this pdf. It also states in the introduction that John Farmer determined that 4-6 seconds of footage were missing from the end of the data.

I'm sorry, but in terms of that specific pdf as an example, you're going to have to do better than this. These two authors mention having discovered ways of "cleaning up," these problems, but that by no means should completely reconcile the fact that said problems existed in the first place.

Originally posted by Varemia

Originally posted by petrus4
Have you seen many pictures of plane wreckage outside the Pentagon, at all? I didn't see any of that myself, which was another point.

Yes, there are a lot of pictures of plane wreckage outside the Pentagon. There are also photos of wreckage inside the pentagon, and charred bodies, and so on. You can find the pictures by doing a very quick search on the internet.

911research.wtc7.net...

This article seems interesting. It mentions the wreckage, and I did see some other photos as you say, but implies that there are problems with it.

Originally posted by petrus4

Originally posted by Another10Pin
If the 911 conspiracy theories are correct, if you are correct, what are you going to do about it?

This event happened over 10 years ago, and if the majority of the American public has not been swayed into believing that those attacks were initiated by some other group than Al Queda, how will you ever convince them?

Thank you.

This is a good question. Honestly, I'm not sure. I don't think the truth will completely come out about this, until the majority of the public want it to; and at the moment, they don't. Right now, the public are still sufficiently willing to believe what they are told, while the government has released the pseudo-rationalist hounds against those few of us who are questioning it; as you can well see in this thread.

We might get a public admission in 30-40 years, perhaps; but then again, it is unlikely, because even given that length of time, the idea that any government could be willing to do such a thing to its' own people, would destroy the credibility of the republic in general, irrespective of the administration in office at the time.

So it could well stay buried for good.

I think one thing that is definitely going to need to change, is the publically perceived definition of logic, and what constitutes rational argument. You will notice that the trolls in the 9/11 forum, are consistently those people who claim to be the most rational, when in reality, they are the exact opposite. They are cowards with zero moral or intellectual integrity; but they are also the most persistent and have the loudest voice, and at the moment, they have the public's ear.

So all we can really do is wait, and endure the inevitable rhetorical rotten vegetables that the pseudo-rational trolls will continue to throw at us.

I think 911 is like JFK. No one is ever going to be able to prove anything either way, conspiracy or the official story. And I don't think 30-40 years is going to mean anything. It's been 50 years since JFK ... there has been no admissions or any documentation that resolves the contention. 911 will be the same way. As I said earlier, ten years and no change in overall public perception.

As tragic as these events have been to the American psyche specifically, and politics in general, I must confess to my own minimalization of them, at least from the perspective of argument over who did what, or the specifics of the events.

I find the larger picture much more disturbing, as apparently you do as well, since you alluded to it in your statement, "would destroy the credibility of the republic in general, irrespective of the administration in office at the time.".

Whether someone is a believer in the official story or the conspiracy theories, it seems to me that there is a larger problem. How does one go about resolving that problem?

In particular, 911. 911 wasn't just a tragic event ... it has altered the course of international politics, along with the policies and laws that the US legislative branch is enacting, the executive branch is managing, and the American public are accepting.

Say for instance, someone views 911 as a conspiracy theorist. "TPTB intentionally caused this event to manipulate both public opinion and intenational/internal politics in order to further their agenda" ... what ever that agenda might be.

Or you say, "The US government's strategic policy in the Middle East is flawed and having catastrophic effects on international/internal politics and is detrimental to the representative form of government".

Either way, the net result is the same. The forfeiture of liberty, justice, and self-determination. This is what I find the most disturbing. And this is what I see as the primary issue that needs to be resolved.

If someone, or a group of someones, is unable to find a way to alter the perception of the majority of the American public (which most on here refer to as 'sheeple', but which I find as an exceedingly derogetory term) as if relates to liberty, justice, and self-detemrination, then these types or arguments are meaningless.

If we cannot find a way to pull the majority of moderate thinking Americans together, elect and place moderate thinking Americans into the political structure, and change the course of our government, then every argument about specific events, whether based on the idea or conspiracy or flawed policy, is pointless.

There are many intelligent people on this site. How come they are not coalescing to find solutions to the larger problems instead of bickering over specific events?

Does this make sense to anyone else? Or am I alone in this thought?

Originally posted by petrus4
911research.wtc7.net...

This article seems interesting. It mentions the wreckage, and I did see some other photos as you say, but implies that there are problems with it.

That's simply based on the person presenting the evidence. Their bias will show through what they present, and it will make whichever position they support seem like the more likely one. It's the same way that History Channel makes aliens in human history seem likely.

Originally posted by petrus4

Originally posted by Alfie1
reply to post by petrus4

 

From your last remarks it seems unlikely that you have read the report published last year by Warren Stutt and Frank Legge which is an analysis of the last few seconds of data from AA 77's recovered flight data recorder ;-

www.journalof911studies.com...

There are altimeter errors, position report errors, and timing discrepancies mentioned, to quote the exact words in this pdf. It also states in the introduction that John Farmer determined that 4-6 seconds of footage were missing from the end of the data.

I'm sorry, but you're going to have to do better than this. These two authors mention having discovered ways of "cleaning up," these problems, but that by no means should completely reconcile the fact that said problems existed in the first place.

The 4-6 seconds of missing data postulated by John Farmer is precisely what has been addressed in this new analysis.

You have obviously just briefly skimmed it now that I have brought it to your attention .

So you knew nothing about the recent report of Dr James Millette finding that there was no thermite in WTC dust (which I brought to your attention a day or two ago), nor did you know anything about this important paper concerning data from AA 77's flight data recorder.

You pose as a valiant warrior of truth being assailed by evil enemies but you evidently don't actually do anything to keep yourself informed.

Ok Petrus,

Let's say I agree with you.....Now what?

This is one heinous thing to accuse our "Favorite Sons" of.

To charge someone with this crime you need evidence.

Not only what happened, but How? Who? Why?

So who did it?....Be specific.

Because what you are saying would end our Republic.

There are 3000 people who lost their lives that day.

Let's not dishonor them with an online Kangaroo Court.

reply to post by whyamIhere


Finally, you make sense. Because, it would end 'our republic' as we now know it.

Originally posted by Another10Pin
I think 911 is like JFK. No one is ever going to be able to prove anything either way, conspiracy or the official story. And I don't think 30-40 years is going to mean anything. It's been 50 years since JFK ... there has been no admissions or any documentation that resolves the contention. 911 will be the same way. As I said earlier, ten years and no change in overall public perception.

9/11 is considerably worse than JFK. Although the fundamental principle behind the attacks (psychopaths being willing to resort to measures of the most extreme criminality in order to disrupt or destroy legitimately functioning, representative government) are the same, Kennedy was a single man. The bodycount for 9/11 was 3,000, and it has led to at least a million civilian deaths in Iraq, tens of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) in Afghanistan, and American soldiers dead, wounded, and mentally shattered as well.

Brigadier General S.L.A. Marshall discovered that only 15-20% (the number corresponding to the overall population of both primary and secondary psychopaths, in Andrew M. Lobaczewski's work Political Ponerology) of WW2 soldiers along the line of fire would use their weapons. The single greatest advantage that the psychopaths have, is the fact that the non-psychopathic lack of willingness to kill, means that we also are not willing to kill them.

As a result, we have been ruled by them for tens of thousands of years now.

In particular, 911. 911 wasn't just a tragic event ... it has altered the course of international politics, along with the policies and laws that the US legislative branch is enacting, the executive branch is managing, and the American public are accepting.

The public have become infantile, and have largely come to view themselves as being entirely helpless. If a few of them try anything, the police are also always on hand, in order to make sure that said assumption is proven correct.

There are many intelligent people on this site. How come they are not coalescing to find solutions to the larger problems instead of bickering over specific events?

Because the first step to finding solutions, involves taking responsibility for your situation. Nobody wants to do that...or very few.

reply to post by petrus4


Then we are at an impasse, and the liberties, justice, and self-determination of the American people will continue to be eroded, for whatever the reason.

Even Gandhi and MLK knew that no matter what, if you do not have the masses on your side in either opinion or action, there can be no change. It's one of the reasons that the 'non-violent' method is so effective, and it has such value in the shaping of opinion/perspective.

Ultimately, you have to have a goal, a direction, and a method. The reasons for initiating a movement and probable results are inconsequential to effecting actual change.

Only my opinion.

Thanks for the dialogue. It's been informative.

Originally posted by whyamIhere
Ok Petrus,

Let's say I agree with you.....Now what?

I do want to commend your courage in at least being willing to consider the possibility that the government would do something of this magnitude. I honestly believe that a lack of willingness to do that, is the main reason why we're seeing so much bogus rationalism associated with 9/11. People just do not want to believe that their government truly is that evil; but it is.

This is one heinous thing to accuse our "Favorite Sons" of.

I'm not accusing your Favourite Sons of it. Your Favourite Sons were told to go to Afghanistan and Iraq and get themselves killed, maimed, and have their minds shattered; and they did so in good faith, and in compliance with their oath of enlistment.

I'm talking about the people further up the chain...who sent them to said countries, merely in order to increase their own profits. If you want to get mad at anyone, don't get mad at the troops. Get mad at people like Dick Cheney.

To charge someone with this crime you need evidence.

Look first at the linked image here, and then go to 8:46 in the linked video.

This is where the proverbial rubber hits the road. I can't give you any more direct physical evidence than that. If you watch the entire video, it will also provide additional supporting evidence which is consistent with eyewitness testimony; but the comparison of the above image with the video at that point is the strongest single piece of evidence that I have seen.

The WTC was destroyed by controlled demolition using thermite. I am completely, 100% convinced of it at this point. Watch the above video, and then go and read about the molten metal, watch the molten flows from the side of the building in the video footage, and then listen to all of the testimony of the witnesses on the day. It all locks together precisely.

As for who was specifically flying the planes, in exact terms, that I cannot tell you. I'm still in the process of trying to figure that out myself. Some people think it had the Mossad behind it, some say the Arabs.

I will also simply ask you this. How many erosions of civil liberties have occurred in the last decade, which were claimed to have been done in the name of fighting terrorism? What other rationale has been given for all of the wars? What excuse do they use when they want to force people to put up with TSA personnel groping them at airports? On what does the DHS justify its' existence, if anyone asks?

Terrorism. The Global War on Terrorism. Al Qaeda. 9/11.

So ask yourself. Who really benefited from 9/11? Was it the supposed terrorists who were said to have pulled it off? We can say that they were willing to be martyrs. Fine and good; but a soldier who is willing to die for a cause, also needs to think about what he is going to purchase with his life. They would be bringing about the complete destruction of several of their countries, and they would know that.

Muslims have a much greater sense of solidarity than we do; that's the entire reason why when Iraq was invaded, you had Muslim men from other countries, going to Iraq to fight the Americans there. If you attack one Islamic country, they see you as attacking all of them. So while Al Qaeda might be fine with martyring themselves individually, they would not do something which they could only know would result in the complete annihiliation of several Islamic countries.

So I don't know yet, exactly who paid for 9/11. All I know right now, and I am prepared to say that I know this at this point, is that the WTC was destroyed by a thermitic controlled demolition, and that if the American government were not directly responsible for it, then it still benefitted them ENORMOUSLY. I have a murder weapon, and I have a motive. I don't know who wielded it yet, but like I said...I'm working on that part.

Because what you are saying would end our Republic.

I know that. It should not, however, end your Republic. It absolutely SHOULD, however, end the psychopaths who have STOLEN your Republic.

Political Ponerology - Read this, and familiarise yourself with the real nature of the people who are running the American government. It will scare you, but it is necessary. It's part of the process of doing something about it.

There are 3000 people who lost their lives that day.

A lot more people than that have died since.

Let's not dishonor them with an online Kangaroo Court.

I agree. We shouldn't. We need to get to the bottom of this.

reply to post by petrus4

The WTC was destroyed by controlled demolition using thermite. I am completely, 100% convinced of it at this point.

I always get a good chuckle out of that one. Thermite. Ever seen thermite used for real? In the real world, not on some video. Its amazing stuff, seen quite a bit myself. Know what one of the hallmarks of thermite use is? I'll tell you - blinding bright light. Literally blinding. Can cause serious damage. And thats with just a small amount of thermite, let alone the tons and tons that would have been necessary to cut through all that steel on the towers. You would have been able to see it for miles even on a bright sunny day.

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by petrus4

 

The WTC was destroyed by controlled demolition using thermite. I am completely, 100% convinced of it at this point.

I always get a good chuckle out of that one. Thermite. Ever seen thermite used for real? In the real world, not on some video. Its amazing stuff, seen quite a bit myself. Know what one of the hallmarks of thermite use is? I'll tell you - blinding bright light. Literally blinding.

I know how bright magnesium strips can be. I did pay some attention in chemistry class at high school.

You didn't watch that video I linked though, did you? Refute what I actually post, please.

reply to post by petrus4

I know how bright magnesium strips can be. I did pay some attention in chemistry class at high school.

Not mag strips. Thermite. By the ton. You would have been able to see it in Conneticut.

You didn't watch that video I linked though, did you?

You are not the first person in this forum to have posted that video. Probably won't be the last.

Refute what I actually post, please

I just did. Had they used thermite it would have been visible literally miles away.

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by petrus4

 

I just did. Had they used thermite it would have been visible literally miles away.

You made exactly the same argument which he mentioned that National Geographic did; right before he went ahead to both completely and experimentally destroy said argument.

Forgive me if I'm not entirely convinced.

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by petrus4

 

The WTC was destroyed by controlled demolition using thermite. I am completely, 100% convinced of it at this point.

I always get a good chuckle out of that one. Thermite. Ever seen thermite used for real? In the real world, not on some video. Its amazing stuff, seen quite a bit myself. Know what one of the hallmarks of thermite use is? I'll tell you - blinding bright light. Literally blinding. Can cause serious damage. And thats with just a small amount of thermite, let alone the tons and tons that would have been necessary to cut through all that steel on the towers. You would have been able to see it for miles even on a bright sunny day.

I don't know anything about thermite. But I am curious, since the beams are an internal part of the structure, would people still have been able to see it?

Originally posted by Another10Pin

Originally posted by hooper
reply to post by petrus4

 

The WTC was destroyed by controlled demolition using thermite. I am completely, 100% convinced of it at this point.

I always get a good chuckle out of that one. Thermite. Ever seen thermite used for real? In the real world, not on some video. Its amazing stuff, seen quite a bit myself. Know what one of the hallmarks of thermite use is? I'll tell you - blinding bright light. Literally blinding. Can cause serious damage. And thats with just a small amount of thermite, let alone the tons and tons that would have been necessary to cut through all that steel on the towers. You would have been able to see it for miles even on a bright sunny day.

I don't know anything about thermite. But I am curious, since the beams are an internal part of the structure, would people still have been able to see it?

You might be interested in this recent report by Dr James Millette, member of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences. He investigated 4 samples of WTC dust but found no thermite :-

dl.dropbox.com...

reply to post by Another10Pin

I don't know anything about thermite. But I am curious, since the beams are an internal part of the structure, would people still have been able to see it?

Actually, the very exterior walls of the towers were part of the structure as well. Even so, if there had been tons of thermite initiated, yes you would have been able to see it. Ever see arc welding done? Imagine the same thing mulitplied by a hundred thousand times. Light would have penetrated every opening and crack in the building.