Alternate THEORIES of evolution:

reply to post by Iason321


When we look at Homo evolution one thing to consider is our brain was smaller in the past. The amount of blood flow into the brain is extremely important too as to how intelligent a species can get. When we go back 2.4 million years to Lucy we are talking about a brain the size of around 450cc and that is close to the size of a chimp's brain today, but most likely with a greater blood flow Lucy had a little bit more smarts.

If we put Adam and Eve into the picture I would think they are metaphors as to when man finally became man. If the Garden of Eden was a metaphor for the animal kingdom we can see that Adam and Eve i.e. Man was kicked out when they ate from the tree of knowledge and became self-aware (clothed their naked bodies). When out brain size started to push 1000cc or so we developed many abilities that the animal kingdom lacks and so one could say that there was a start for Man within the evolutionary process.

Whether it was due to intelligent design or survival of the fittest...or both, falls to faith or lack of, but I see the story of Adam and Eve surprising accurate as simple as it is.


Edit to add....

Now this is the most important part to the whole creationist/evolutionist argument......

You guys are arguing on the "How" man was created and thinking it is also the "Why". The truth, is that every "How" is plausible under creationist and so with science Man can say that evolution happened, but that doesn't mean that God did not use evolution as a tool.

At this point there really is no debate on the "How" and there is no debate on the "why" either for one either has faith or not....this is extremely simple and it amazes me that others cannot see this on both sides of the debate.

reply to post by jiggerj


Wow, do you have to always so blunt with the truth. I could add about a thousand things to your post and I'm sure you could too. Pretty good summary there though. We have been conditioned to think evil things are good in our history. Well, there are some of us who see through it. From what my father told me from being a POW during WW2 the Nazi's were very bad but most of the common German people were good people. They were the ones without power, the farmers and factory workers and so on so forth. Every power hungry nation brainwashes their people using similar techniques.

Originally posted by RyanFromCan

The problem arises in that the KJV, CLV, and all other versions of the bible, short of the original masoretic texts and ancient Hebrew writings, are translations, and no matter how hard you try, you always lose something in translation, as many languages do not have single words that mean literally and exactly the same thing in other languages, also, some words change meanings, depending on context, and lets not even get into the fact the KJV was written with s much emphasis on being "easy" to read and "artistic" in it's use of language while attempting to convey the stories and letters in the Bible.

Well there is no problem...one of faith understands that God keeps the bible pure throughout translations and one not of faith sees it as just a book, so either it is just a book or it is pure to form...

Originally posted by rhinoceros
You mean the last ice age? There have been numerous in Earth's history, and they left many signs behind. Northern forests are still changing (tree species frequencies) as an after effect of the last ice age, i.e. spruce is gaining back ground from species that are able to spread faster..

(I am not discounting the evidence and existence of the Ice Age(s))

So you mean to tell me that much of the Earth was covered in ice and snow?
What exactly do you think happened to all of that frozen water?

You say the Flood was impossible because there isn't enough water on Earth.
Roughly 350 million trillion gallons of water in the oceans... and there isn't "enough" water?

Another serious question:
Why is the Earth not spherical like the other terrestrial planets in the solar system?
Take away all the water and you have a misshapen rock...

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Whether it was due to intelligent design or survival of the fittest...or both, falls to faith or lack of, but I see the story of Adam and Eve surprising accurate as simple as it is.

Very good. That's pretty close to my opinion as well. I believe let us make man in our image is a tautological narrative device for transitioning to man's developing self-awareness ['knowing good and evil'].

Originally posted by imherejusttoread


Very good. That's pretty close to my opinion as well. I believe let us make man in our image is a tautological narrative device for transitioning to man's developing self-awareness ['knowing good and evil'].

Self-awareness is a start, but other mammals have a limited self-awareness too. I think the big thing that finally made Man man is the ability to think in the abstract. This is, so far, unique to us and what really makes us who we are. To look at a stone, a stick and cord and abstractually think them into a stone axe, and then make it, is what humankind is all about.

This also allows us the ability to choose between good and evil too. I can help the old lady across the street or I can steal her purse. A lion can either eat the old lady or eat someone else...there is no good or evil choice to the animal world.

Originally posted by amnislupus
(I am not discounting the evidence and existence of the Ice Age(s))

So you mean to tell me that much of the Earth was covered in ice and snow?
What exactly do you think happened to all of that frozen water?

You say the Flood was impossible because there isn't enough water on Earth.
Roughly 350 million trillion gallons of water in the oceans... and there isn't "enough" water?

Not enough water to cover the entire Earth. Not even close. They speculate of ancient snowball earth (entire Earth covered by ice and snow), but that's easy, you don't need a lot of water for that. However, for liquid water to cover the entire Earth you need to raise the sea level by some 8.5 kilometers..

Another serious question:
Why is the Earth not spherical like the other terrestrial planets in the solar system?
Take away all the water and you have a misshapen rock...

I don't think any planets are spherical but spheroid. From wiki:

Local topography deviates from this idealized spheroid, although on a global scale, these deviations are small: Earth has a tolerance of about one part in about 584, or 0.17%, from the reference spheroid, which is less than the 0.22% tolerance allowed in billiard balls.

I think that makes Earth extremely round, more so than e.g. Mars, which is smaller than Earth but has much higher mountains, e.g. Olympus mons at 26 kilometers above plains..

All I know is that what I see in this world shows me that random as applied to life here in this planet is not applicable. Something from a long time ago and not of this planet created life here. Something appears to be looking after us also, trying to steer us in the right direction. Overall consensus now adays is that this is not possible because there is no real evidence. I have personally experienced things that defy the law of physics as I have been taught. I see misguidance in the sciences and understand the reasons but it still does not mean that the reasons are right. I'm glad to be experiencing this world, I even learn from the evil and ignorance that exists. Maybe someday I will be allowed to join into the steering of this reality at a higher level than that of mankind.

Originally posted by rhinoceros
Not enough water to cover the entire Earth. Not even close. They speculate of ancient snowball earth (entire Earth covered by ice and snow), but that's easy, you don't need a lot of water for that. However, for liquid water to cover the entire Earth you need to raise the sea level by some 8.5 kilometers..

I'm not certain why you're arguing that the Earth must have been completely covered in water in order for the Deluge to have been possible. If that were the case, land animals would have never evolved in the first place.

You still haven't answered my question as to where all that frozen water went as we thawed out from the Ice Age.

Originally posted by amnislupus
I'm not certain why you're arguing that the Earth must have been completely covered in water in order for the Deluge to have been possible. If that were the case, land animals would have never evolved in the first place.

I'm just saying that as far as we can tell, a global flood never happened. Not only because it would have been impossible, but also, because we don't see any signs of such thing having ever happened. The only thing that says so are some old myths, which are accompanied by other myths like talking snakes and flying camels, which sort of questions their factual basis.

Originally posted by amnislupus
You still haven't answered my question as to where all that frozen water went as we thawed out from the Ice Age.

Back into the ecosystem, i.e. the seas, the glaciers, the lakes, the atmosphere, and the biota. Sea levels are higher now than during the ice age

Originally posted by rhinoceros

Originally posted by amnislupus
I'm not certain why you're arguing that the Earth must have been completely covered in water in order for the Deluge to have been possible. If that were the case, land animals would have never evolved in the first place.

I'm just saying that as far as we can tell, a global flood never happened. Not only because it would have been impossible, but also, because we don't see any signs of such thing having ever happened. The only thing that says so are some old myths, which are accompanied by other myths like talking snakes and flying camels, which sort of question their factual basis.

Originally posted by amnislupus
You still haven't answered my question as to where all that frozen water went as we thawed out from the Ice Age.

Back into the ecosystem, i.e. the seas, the glaciers, the lakes, the atmosphere, and the biota. Sea levels are higher now than during the ice age

edit on 21-4-2012 by rhinoceros because: (no reason given)

I'm completely out of my element here, but couldn't there be huge oceans and lakes of fresh water under ground? As I understand there are huge reservoirs under the Sahara, and scientist have never been able to determine the source of the Nile Waters.

Originally posted by amnislupus
You still haven't answered my question as to where all that frozen water went as we thawed out from the Ice Age.

edit on 4/21/2012 by amnislupus because: (no reason given)

Went back into the oceans where it came from...Remember that thawing out took 1000s of years. Lowering of the oceans help spread man around the world as areas that are water today were bridged by land with sea levels about 400 feet lower.

Originally posted by windword
I'm completely out of my element here, but couldn't there be huge oceans and lakes of fresh water under ground? As I understand there are huge reservoirs under the Sahara, and scientist have never been able to determine the source of the Nile Waters.

96% of all water on earth is in the oceans, but it is a theory that the great deluge was mostly a rush of unknown vast underground water that flooded the earth and then went back into the earth. If the earth was flooded I don't see the waters receding for a very long time, and so non-aquatic life would most likely reset on earth.

Originally posted by Xtrozero


To look at a stone, a stick and cord and abstractually think them into a stone axe, and then make it, is what humankind is all about.

Well, not really, because birds have looked at eggs and stones and... (how abstract is this for a bird?!)

UGH! Tried loading a youtube vid but it won't work. Frustrating!

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by rickymouse
reply to post by jiggerj

 

Wow, do you have to always so blunt with the truth. I could add about a thousand things to your post and I'm sure you could too. Pretty good summary there though. We have been conditioned to think evil things are good in our history. Well, there are some of us who see through it. From what my father told me from being a POW during WW2 the Nazi's were very bad but most of the common German people were good people. They were the ones without power, the farmers and factory workers and so on so forth. Every power hungry nation brainwashes their people using similar techniques.

Blunt? I'm having a blast! Imagine me saying it with a big grin and with the friendly attitude of "I gotcha on that one, buddy. haha!"

Originally posted by jiggerj


Well, not really, because birds have looked at eggs and stones and... (how abstract is this for a bird?!)

UGH! Tried loading a youtube vid but it won't work. Frustrating!

There are some different levels for sure, but birds do not learn how to build nest and they seem to build the same kind over and over though unique to each bird type. They are not thinking in an abstract way to design it, they rely on instinct. Many animals use stones as tools, but we can see though human evolution how man started like this too, but developed the ability to create things that started as just a thought.

Humans create from nothing, humans are very comfortable spending much of their thought process in a abstract environment where animals can't not do this. I didn't say other animals don't use tools, I'm saying they don't have the mental powers for abstract thoughts.

reply to post by Xtrozero

Well there is no problem...one of faith understands that God keeps the bible pure throughout translations and one not of faith sees it as just a book, so either it is just a book or it is pure to form...

I am a Christian, just not stupid, blind, or unable to logically think things through. The Bible is a collection of morality stories and allegories to live by, it is a body of truth, but it is not perfect or literal.

reply to post by Xtrozero


Evidently you don't watch birds much. They sure can do a lot without an opposable thumb. I built some complex houses. I watch birds build their houses. They are not all the same for a species. I saw a male getting colored strings and the female weaved them into the nest in a pattern. It was no where near random.

Originally posted by Xtrozero

Originally posted by jiggerj


Well, not really, because birds have looked at eggs and stones and... (how abstract is this for a bird?!)

UGH! Tried loading a youtube vid but it won't work. Frustrating!

There are some different levels for sure, but birds do not learn how to build nest and they seem to build the same kind over and over though unique to each bird type. They are not thinking in an abstract way to design it, they rely on instinct. Many animals use stones as tools, but we can see though human evolution how man started like this too, but developed the ability to create things that started as just a thought.

Humans create from nothing, humans are very comfortable spending much of their thought process in a abstract environment where animals can't not do this. I didn't say other animals don't use tools, I'm saying they don't have the mental powers for abstract thoughts.

edit on 21-4-2012 by Xtrozero because: (no reason given)

Oh I know we are able to have complicated abstract thought, but I've seen instances in the animal kingdom that hint at the abstract. Ever see the lion in the wild that took care of a baby antelope? Apparently the lion had lost a cub, and the antelope had lost its mother.

Now, an antelope can't possibly smell like a lion cub, and by the way the lion was licking it I could tell that the antelope tasted more delicious than it did a lion cub. lol So, for the lion this had to be an abstract thought on some level, wouldn't you think?

Also, I watched (and laughed at) a young squirrel playing with a stick. The darn thing was wrestling with it. I have no idea what that stick represented, seeing as I've never known squirrels to chase or do anything with a stick, but the stick had to be an abstract replacement for something.




What am I doing wrong when linking to youtube?!!!!

Originally posted by TiM3LoRd

Originally posted by addygrace

Originally posted by gymbeau2000

Occam's Razor? It doesn't pertain to this subject. Occam's Razor is something I talk to my 7 year old about when he's lying to me. I was going to reply to the rest of your stuff, but it's the same old God is mean stuff.

All of us were atheist's at one time. God will reveal himself. It seems you may be trying to push him away. Every man is without excuse.

One thing, though. What's this about Satellites?

Actually

Occam's razor (also written as Ockham's razor, Latin lex parsimoniae) is the law of parsimony, economy or succinctness. It is a principle urging one to select among competing hypotheses that which makes the fewest assumptions and thereby offers the simplest explanation of the effect.

So it DOES apply to this thread and topic as the thread is about hypotheses of creation and evolution.

Not quite sure what Razor you're thinking of?

You can use Occam's Razor on whatever you want. Why would you use it to figure out if there is a God? The simplest isn't always the truth. Occam's Razor isn't a magical truth algorithm.

Ever since the internet has made it popular to throw around Occam's Razor as if it's some kind of magical, secret formula for finding truth, people try to use it in the most insane ways.

Gymbeau2000 urges us to remember Occam's Razor. Why?
Well the simplest answer is, he wants us to recognize he is smart, because he pointed out Occam's Razor. He also tries to boost a low self-esteem by pretending like Christian's couldn't possibly know what Occam's Razor is.

Welcome to 2008, we all know what Occam's Razor is.
Occam's Razor 2008

It was around before then, but it wasn't thrown around like it's some kind of magic word to show people you're smart.