Hiroshima ....just an experiment on the already defeated?

Originally posted by steppenwolf86
An invasion could have led to a North/South Japan, and because we did it without the Russians, Japan is what it is today.

Exactly...Japan is in far worse shape than Germany at this point.

Originally posted by aching_knuckles

But the fact remains, we did what we did to 1) test the A-bomb (and scare Russia) 2)secure our financial future in Japan.

I can agree with that, but I stand by my claim that however horrible it is to imagine, the bombs killed less civilians than would have died in a conventional invasion.

Originally posted by aching_knuckles

Originally posted by steppenwolf86
An invasion could have led to a North/South Japan, and because we did it without the Russians, Japan is what it is today.

Exactly...Japan is in far worse shape than Germany at this point.

Germany is in Europe, and fell under the Soviet umbrella. Korea was outside of it. Is Korea unified? No. Why not? Because the cost of unification would be astronomical and is not worth it to South Korean leaders. Modernizing East Germany still took a lot of money and many years.

Not to mention the Korean war, which would have dragged N/S Japan in, adding to the casualties from the 1945 hypthetical invasion.

Originally posted by steppenwolf86

Not to mention the Korean war, which would have dragged N/S Japan in, adding to the casualties from the 1945 hypthetical invasion.

You know what, I hadnt even considered that aspect...who knows, maybe the Korean war would have been the Japanese war! Or maybe Japan would have been the spark that turned the Cold war hot....

I love miltary historical what ifs, they are definitely fun to conjecture about. I think I am going to write a fictional novel based on this idea....thanks steppenwolf, you just made me some loot!

Originally posted by steppenwolf86

Originally posted by aching_knuckles

But the fact remains, we did what we did to 1) test the A-bomb (and scare Russia) 2)secure our financial future in Japan.

I can agree with that, but I stand by my claim that however horrible it is to imagine, the bombs killed less civilians than would have died in a conventional invasion.

edit on 15-4-2012 by steppenwolf86 because: quote error

We just have to agree to disagree, I think we could have waited them out and done it in a more...humane manner.

I think the A-bombs were the greatest criminal war act in history, due to the fact that Japan had basically just been given a standing 8 count and were punch drunk, and the ones who suffered most from the bombs were normal people, and the effects last to this day. The people of Japan were victim to a horrific tragedy that I believe was different from conventional warfare....after all WWII was really brutal, but still the use of gas was a big no no. So its not like there werent morals, or as if it was "anything goes" the whole time.

But all of World War II was so damn brutally evil that when it was over, everyone was just happy it was over, and the winners got off scot free while the losers paid dearly for doing basically the same thing or worse. Stalin and Russia were monsters, but we could not have beaten the Germans without them, so we looked the other way....

Originally posted by aching_knuckles
If anyone ever did any research, they would realize that early in 45, there was something called the "Target Committee".

The Target Committee looked at all Japanese targets do decide what to use. A lot went into the decision, such as placement, height of detonation, the psychological effect on the Japanese people. You can read it here:
www.dannen.com...

It was obvious that they wanted to cause as much destruction as possible and as much misery and pain as possible to Japan. It had nothing to do with saving millions of lives - we had them blockaded, and could have starved them out, especially since the Nazi threat was gone....the entire world would have ganged up on Japan. So the argument about "saving millions of American soldiers" is a bunch of poppycock.

The droppping of the Abomb was to do a live test on human subjects - they had already blown up other #, but blowing up humans is REAL exciting. Causing cancers for generations? Priceless, apparently.

edit on 14-4-2012 by aching_knuckles because: (no reason given)

blockaded? really? the entire country? how many thousands of ships would you have to have on patrol 24/7, get real...........starved them out? they could grow alot of food in japan if they were desperate, and you couldn't have "blockaded" all their fishing boats......world would have ganged up on them?....presumption only

I think the ordinary man ... of every nation in that war ... was so mentally & physically exhausted, after 6 years of bloodshed and struggle, that if presented with the choice of a "humanitarian" naval/air blockade ... or the Bomb ... most people would've simply chosen the Bomb to end that war quickly. That's not to say the Allies were bloodthirsty vengeance seekers, they weren't. But their people just wanted the war to end.

The Japanese were already defeated by the Trinity test shot. Various attempts had been made to signal a Japanese intention to surrender by mid Summer 1945. Their significance wasn't recognized or they just weren't followed up in time by the right people. That's a terrible shame, thousands of lives could've been saved.

We weren't there, we didn't go through that war, well most of us didn't.

I don't see how we're fit to judge those before us, people who suffered terrible in ways we can't even contemplate.

Maybe the lesson is that people should consider their enemy...people get sick and tired of the idiocy eventually.

like the present times for example...the enemies of America lost years ago...yet they continue without pause to irritate a far more powerful opponent.

i think something on this planet enjoys being violently dominated and at the same time loves making them feel bad about their superior position.

well...we'll see what they choose at the end.

I haven't read the whole thread but it's my understanding that it was always the plan to drop both bombs, partially to prove that we had more than one and that it wasn't some sort of natural anomaly. The decision on which cities was carefully made and yes, Kyoto was off the list because of the ancient temples there.

Really horrific times; I grew up in the 50s and I got so tired of hearing the war story recountings and the propaganda from both sides. Apparently the Japanese were capable of great evil, but the Americans were all flag waving heroes... except not.

I'll never forget the old musty LOOK magazine article I was reading once as an impressionable kid; it was probably 10 years old already and it was describing, just after the war ended, about how 'Nazi guards ripped a baby out of the arms of the mother, ripped it's arms off and threw it into the ovens...'

Looking back on this and the way the 'ovens' were reported to have worked, that's not possible, (not to mention, how did the witness live to report back on this?) but it makes great hate mongering, as if the truth weren't bad enough. I've lived through 60 years of fear and hate of 'others' now, and the Muslims are just the latest victims of it all. We've been manipulated into war for how long now? And it's never the leaders who die.

reply to post by signalfire


muslims as someones victims....?

sounds like the an academy award winning production.

i think everyone is a willing participant...especially if it puts some change in their bank accounts. they'll do anything asked of them from what I can see.

people will probably be very upset to ultimately learn that they were unambiguously the author of their own calamity and their is no one to blame.

The Japs already had a plan for surrender. It was just a question of how.
The American war machine's nuking was genocide against the Japanese people.
Their actions eventually killed humans who were not even alive when the war was on.
Isn't killing civillians when not in a state of war a crime?
It was intended to show the Russians how great the American war machine was.
Limbo

reply to post by aching_knuckles


Japan was not really close to doing anything but remaining silently stubborn. As they always have been, they are a proud country.

en.wikipedia.org...

Please read more on that. Basically we called for their surrender in the Potsdam Declaration, they essentially refused. We assured them of "prompt and utter destruction"

They were warned. Am I saying that we were totally justified? In some ways yes, when you look at the big picture, what we did ended up saving more lives that you might think. Was it brutal and maybe a bit over the top? yes totally. But it was a crazy time, and the entire world just wanted things to end.

You should be blaming the stubborn and arrogant leadership of Japan. They were given ample opportunity to prevent the bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, they however refused at the cost of many thousands of lives, for their own stubborn pride.

Originally posted by Limbo
The Japs already had a plan for surrender. It was just a question of how.
The American war machine's nuking was genocide against the Japanese people.
Their actions eventually killed humans who were not even alive when the war was on.
Isn't killing civillians when not in a state of war a crime?
It was intended to show the Russians how great the American war machine was.
Limbo

many people don't believe in anything greater than the physical.

Japan was getting nuked, whether the Americans did it or not. It is their destiny...as Fukushima proved.

the thing about evil is that it wants to be able to blame good for its circumstances.

the American war machine is manifest magnificence...but has allowed itself in the past to be used as the goat...

fortunately...the world is now able to witness for themselves that they are the reason for their own problems and America and/or its equivalent isn't involved at all for how much they suck.

There is this article by a Mark Weber,

www.ihr.org...

It pretty much reveals the lead up to the bombings, including the secret talks on a surrender by the Japanese, who were just about knackered well before the bombings, it's a good read.

See all your discussions about the war and japan and how America needed to nuke Japan to stop the war is all fine and dandy, but you gentlemen are missing the biggest point, and that is that this whole goddam war was a complete waste of the world populations effort, and was started to advance weapons technologies, reduce the world population and carve up it's resources between then elite, Hitler's initial financing came from two arms dealers, one of which operated in the Rhineland, the other Operated in France. I suggest everyone here read a book called "merchant's of death" by H.C. englebrecht it was written around 1934 and he wrote about how WW1 was a complete sham, and how there is going to be a coming war with germany again due to the rise of Hitler, what's also interesting is that the author died at the ripe old age of 44 from a "heart attack" while on his way to speak to congress in washing D.C. one month after the start of WW2.

I'm also assuming you gentlemen are all over the age of 40 so it's going to be hard to change your opinion, but seriously YOU ALL NEED TO START WAKING UP TO THE BIG PICTURE.

that is all.

reply to post by stoptheinsanity2012


the point you are missing is that God's plan is bigger than yours. Even though I could easily have said that in less than one line of text...rules state that I must use at least two lines.

its a weird way to save space, but that's the rule.

Well all you Americans sure have allot of input, I wonder what a japanese person would say...

Oh wait, i know a few, they think you are baby killing tyrants too, what a conincidence.

Only stating the obvious, Both sides did horrable things, I wonder how japanese were "really" treated in concentration camps?

If one wants to find an insightful look into the U.S. military expectations of an invasion of Japan look into the orders made for Purple Hearts, specifically for the casualties expected. hnn.us...

The real "crime" involving our treatment of Japan overall is the Treaty of San Francisco and how we allowed Japanese war criminals to escape justice. In the end the Japanese people where treated far better during and after the war than they treated their enemies.

reply to post by kman420


Since the Japanese dislike teaching their children about things like the rape of Nanjing, Unit 731 and the long list of crimes committed by their so honorable military, it does not surprise me that they think we are terrible. But oh well, they also convinced themselves that we were cannibals and monsters, to keep them from surrendering.

www.pacificwar.org.au...

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by michaelbrux
reply to post by stoptheinsanity2012

 

the point you are missing is that God's plan is bigger than yours. Even though I could easily have said that in less than one line of text...rules state that I must use at least two lines.

its a weird way to save space, but that's the rule.

edit on 15-4-2012 by michaelbrux because: (no reason given)

how am I missing that point? and how is that relevent to my post? explain, and also just to follow
your example, there is 2 lines from me as well.