An open letter to Atheists

I wanted to write my own version of another thread currently in this subforum; To All The God haters. Truthfully, though, this is something I've been meaning to write for some time; probably a couple of years, even.

I'm not an atheist, myself. I believe in God, and have done for most of my life; although the manner in which I do now, has undergone some fairly major revisions. I am not Christian, at this point.

I will be honest with you. I went through my own period of feeling extremely fearful of, and angry with, Atheism as a philosophy, but not so much with individuals. This wasn't because I wanted to convert anyone to my own beliefs, but more because, for a long time, I perceived a large number of Atheists who seemed to want to convert me. I was able to resolve that, however, when I realised that although there are some radical Atheists, as there are radical adherents of every philosophy, there were also a great many who I knew, had no more interest in the evangelism or conversion of others to their philosophy, than I had towards converting people to mine.

I am aware, that in the case of most of those of you who are still angry about theism or religion, that said anger is generally only directed at the three branches of Semitic monotheism, specifically; Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. I have observed that generally speaking, Atheists either know very little about religions outside the Semitic framework, or if they do, do not usually feel animosity towards them.

I have also come to suspect that the main reason for Atheistic animosity towards the Semitic faiths, is due to the same fear that I myself had for some time, concerning Atheism. It is the very fear that there is another group of people in the world, who are determined not to allow us to have the right to our own mind; to have our own faith or not to have any faith at all, and to have entirely the ethical model that we see fit, or that our own conscience directs us towards.

I have experienced extensive psychological abuse at the hands of Christians myself, as well, and so I understand that a large amount of Atheistic anger towards Christians, to the extent that such exists, is probably also due to that. Resolving my own psychological scars in association with Christianity, has taken me many years, and the process is probably still far from complete. My view of Christian theology has also undergone a very profound restructuring as well, right down to the religion's literal foundations; to the point where while I do still assign a high level of value to the person of Jesus Christ, my perception of who he is was and is is radically, and systemically different from mainstream Christianity.

I no longer feel any animosity towards Atheism as a philosophy, or any of its' individual adherents. I am at this point entirely confident that peaceful, positive co-existence between many Atheists, and those of us who choose to believe in God, is possible. My own faith also is not a threat to anyone; it does not ijnvolve any church, nor does it incorporate the usual desire to take over the world.

I would ask you, if it is possible for you, to regard Christians with compassion. I am not always successful in my own attempts to do this. They can be extremely authoritarian and condemnatory in their manner towards people, and virtually the entire mainstream Christian framework is built around an appeal to fear, for the sake of maintaining their religion's social and political authority.

I understand that, on many occasions, on this and other Internet sites, and in various physical world locations, you will probably encounter Christians who still seek to engage in repressive and hateful behaviour towards you. I am not suggesting that you allow that behaviour to go unresisted or unanswered; but to the extent that you can, be gentle with them. Many of them are literally berserk with fear, and that is generally the motivation behind what they do. I have experienced first hand the Christian fear of hell fire, and the fear of their beliefs concerning the end of the world. Both can be an exceptionally difficult thing to deal with psychologically.

To the extent that Christians behave badly, and to the extent that we who have been harmed by them, tend to want vengeance as a result, in my own experience, there is one means of obtaining revenge more effectively than any other. That is by being the most positive, effective, and powerful emulation, within our own behaviour, of the man who they claim as their own example, as possible.

I have had to acknowledge the very real and genuine possibility that I am, as they have said, going to Hell after I die. I can think of no better form of solace for myself, if that were to occur, than to know that while alive, even if I did not do it all the time, or even most of the time...there were still a few small, isolated incidents, where I managed to make a positive difference.

This has been stated many times on this site, but here goes again. Many of us atheists were once christian. We know more about the christian belief system than others. We speak out against it because their views and ideas directly affect the livelihood of others, homosexuals for example. I know little about Islam, but from what I've seen, their beliefs also directly affect the livelihood of others. Judaism is the one I know least about, so I can't really speak out against it. As far as Hinduism goes, I don't know if their beliefs directly affect the livelihood of others.

There are plenty of other religions like Scientology, Mormonism, JW's as well that are also just as silly.

From a lifelong atheist who has had enough paranormal experiences to have a slightly different take on things:

You're not going to hell, there's no such thing, except possibly some mental states on this planet caused by the incredible insanity we all have to live with every day around us.

And, you're not going to die, either. I could state my experience that proves this to me, but it is just that, a subjective experience that I have no way to prove. But believe me, as you would anyone else in church or whatever... you don't die. Your spirit or soul is separate from your physical body and lives on.

Part of what is attributed to Jesus is correct, about the spirit. No need to worship anything but nature and no need to give anyone any money or 'believe' anything. Whether you believe or not, your consciousness will still survive your physical death. Many scientific experiments have been done trying to disprove this (Scole Experiments, for one) and to their surprise, they found the opposite.

Over zealous dogma of any kind is dangerous. I respect the right to believe or not as long as no one is telling me what I should do. The way both sides of the argument are manipulated is just another way to keep us divided and fighting each other. Believe what you want to believe (or not) and let and let live. Different does not equate wrong.

Originally posted by signalfire
Whether you believe or not, your consciousness will still survive your physical death. Many scientific experiments have been done trying to disprove this (Scole Experiments, for one) and to their surprise, they found the opposite.

edit on 14-4-2012 by signalfire because: changed 'atheist' to 'lifelong atheist'

Would you have consciousness without a brain? If not, do you have a brain after you die? If you could have consciousness without a brain, how?

I'm Athiest. Your not. Thats fine by me.

BUT!!

I was standing in line at my local store recently and in another line was this guy shouting about the baby jesus and how he'll save us all, Whats he going to save ME from??
He went on to say how he made sure his own children knew all about the BABY JESUS. I'm sorry but whenever I see people like him the word BRAINWASHED comes to mind and I have to say I fear for his childrens sanity.

Dont worry about going to hell, just look around and you'll see were already there.

I watched a video of a couple of UN guys that were at the site of a bombing and there was a UN guy buried in the rubble. They figured out that they could not get the guy out before he bled out. The guy on the outside kept trying to get the guy that was buried to pray. Apparently the guy in the rubble was an atheist and told the guy telling him to pray "why would I pray to god? He did this to me."

Made me think. Some pretty bad stuff happens in the world. So if there is a god did he do it to you? OR Did he just allow it to happen to you. Either way that's pretty messed up. Don't know that I want to spend eternity with someone like that.

Having buried two of my three children before they were six years old, I have struggled with this whole god thing for years. If there is a god I just might kick him in the shins when I see him.

Atheism is NOT a philosophy. It is not capitolized it is simply not believing in a god. I would explain more but that is all ther is to it.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Originally posted by signalfire
Whether you believe or not, your consciousness will still survive your physical death. Many scientific experiments have been done trying to disprove this (Scole Experiments, for one) and to their surprise, they found the opposite.

edit on 14-4-2012 by signalfire because: changed 'atheist' to 'lifelong atheist'

Would you have consciousness without a brain? If not, do you have a brain after you die? If you could have consciousness without a brain, how?

edit on 14-4-2012 by Hydroman because: (no reason given)

The whole body is capable of receiving information, but the brain and heart are what typically interpret and translate that information for the body. Consciousness doesn't require either of those things to exist. NDEs and OBEs/Astral projection are evidence of us being able to leave our body, disconnected from the brain and so on. One could say that the body comes into existence because of consciousness, not usually the other way around because that would be a miracle.

If you view consciousness as a formless form of vibrating energy, then it can make sense that consciousness exists without a physical brain.

Non religious means no religion. People wont have to feel caught up in your religious games that only continue to exist because you continue to believe it will.

ETA: Religious people should be banned from questioning people who aren't religious. If you want to be a member of the nut clan, keep it to yourself.

I'm not an atheist and like you OP, I have developed my own truth and enter these threads to learn from the exchange of information and sharing of links on topics I am interested in, such as alternative history of theology.

What I find infuriating are certain Christians who think that it is their duty to put up road blocks to civil discourse of topics that threaten their status quo. By insulting, mocking, attacking, distracting and derailing conversation, feigning condescending pity and knocking our irrelevant scripture, often times their actions result in the closing of the thread completely. This is acceptable behavior, IMO.

Originally posted by AdamsMurmur
]The whole body is capable of receiving information, but the brain and heart are what typically interpret and translate that information for the body. Consciousness doesn't require either of those things to exist. NDEs and OBEs/Astral projection are evidence of us being able to leave our body, disconnected from the brain and so on. One could say that the body comes into existence because of consciousness, not usually the other way around because that would be a miracle.

If you view consciousness as a formless form of vibrating energy, then it can make sense that consciousness exists without a physical brain.

edit on 14/4/12 by AdamsMurmur because: (no reason given)

How does a heart interpret information? It merely pumps oxygen rich blood through out the body.

Has Astral projection ever been tested? It would be easy. Take a deck of cards, pull one card out without looking at it, and lay it on a table. Go to another room, astral project yourself and see what the card is. Then go check it once you've come back to your body. It would be easy to test. Has this been done?

As far as NDE's go, when people die, they usually see the gods they grew up believing in. For example, christians see their god, Hindus see their gods, etc. Why is that?

reply to post by Hydroman


No always the case my husband has always been a hard core atheist but when he died (he came back) he saw cartoon characters who keep trying to tell him he was dead and beings made out of light. He kept telling him he was supposed to just shut down when he died. Only things that were the same a most NDE is he got questioned, he had to turn around and face his essence/true self, and he got to ask to see how the universe works. As soon as they showed him and he figured out everything was a big circle he jumped back in and woke up. Scared the crap out of the nurse.My husband is a hard head he argues with death and doesn't stay dead when he dies. That must be what I love about him.

Originally posted by Hydroman

Has Astral projection ever been tested? It would be easy. Take a deck of cards, pull one card out without looking at it, and lay it on a table. Go to another room, astral project yourself and see what the card is. Then go check it once you've come back to your body. It would be easy to test. Has this been done?

So clinical. It doesn't really work that way - - at least not for me. I've been popping out of my body since birth.

If you have a musical ear - - how do you explain it to someone who is tone deaf?

How would you explain sight to someone born blind?

I'm a Wiccan, for lack of a better, more descriptive word. I was raised to be a Christian minister, forced to church, and several times had a bad experience with the whole thing, which culminated in a direct confrontation. At age 28, I got hurt, and on my back, I began a research project on religious theory and practice, theology, theosophy, Kabbala, Golden Dawn, Talmud, Koran, Key, Lessor Key....you get the picture. No stone left unturned in my quest. I discovered a great many things. Things I often speak of in these forums. Secrets I have discovered, in the Bible and other religious documents. I explored the many Gods and Goddesses of the history of planet Earth. I began to form religious thought. I chose the tenets that fit me personally. I did not "conform" to someone else's way, or dogma, and I followed no book as gospel truth. All are connected, you know, you can find Biblical scriptures in Demonology Grimores. I found that all religions are based on Ancient Sun worship, and to me, that makes perfect sense. Can anyone show me anything else more deserving of our worship?

These are the reasons I speak out against Christianity, Islam, and any other "book" religion with a corporate head and a lobby in Washington DC, and their hands in the deep pockets of the Military Industrial Complex, while they still kill African children for being different. And for sitting high and mighty and proclaiming they, and only they, have a lock on truth. They most certainly do not.

Originally posted by Annee
So clinical. It doesn't really work that way - - at least not for me. I've been popping out of my body since birth.

So you're saying you couldn't do the test that I described? Why not?

Originally posted by Annee
If you have a musical ear - - how do you explain it to someone who is tone deaf?

How would you explain sight to someone born blind?

To someone born blind, I would say that my world is not blackness or void in appearance, that I can make out objects due to light entering my eyes. My brain interprets that light as a certain object. Seeing the objects, I can interact with them, or avoid them if necessary. So the objects that you bump in to because of your lack of sight, I can see them and avoid them.

To someone who is tone deaf, I would say that I can make out the musical notes when my ears hear the right pitch, sound, or vibration and I know when a note is in tune with other notes, or if it is in the right pitch because my brain interprets it correctly. (BTW, I may be tone deaf, lol)

I'm sure there are better ways to describe those things than I just did.

Originally posted by Ladysophiaofsandoz
As soon as they showed him and he figured out everything was a big circle he jumped back in and woke up.

What do you mean everything is a big circle?

Originally posted by Hydroman

To someone born blind, I would say that my world is not blackness or void in appearance, that I can make out objects due to light entering my eyes. My brain interprets that light as a certain object. Seeing the objects, I can interact with them, or avoid them if necessary. So the objects that you bump in to because of your lack of sight, I can see them and avoid them.

That is something that makes sense to you.

I've been "popping" (OBE) out of my body since birth. I make no effort to do this. It just happens - - and is pretty weird.

One time when I was driving on the 405 - - I popped out and was sitting on the top of my car. It scared me enough I went back in my body.

How do you explain something like that to someone who's never experienced it.

All I know is - - - there is more going on then what we physically see. I still don't believe in a God.

reply to post by Hydroman


There were countless cards laid out that branched left and right depending on the choice the person made and a thread of white light that ran down the middle and he backed up and backed up and saw that the cards began to arc. When he saw this he figured it must be a circle so he waited for it to come around again and jumped back in. He figured he was dead so what did he have to loose. Could have just been his brain shutting down. I am not claiming to know the answers just repeating the story and pointing out even people who don't believe in god can have NDE.

reply to post by petrus4


I find that most Christians, even on this site, are well rounded and full of hope. Fear is not a word I would use to describe someone set free from the burden of sin and death. What you may find is a confusion between the subject the object delivering words and deeds. Consider the subject the Christian faith and the object the one delivering the message. There are two possibilities.

1) A weak faith with no moral virtue causes hypocrisy. All Christians and non-Christians are alike in this. We are all duplicitous. Take the most virtuous man we can find. Job was perfect, save one mistake: He had pride. It was the one thing he was holding. His works were not enough.

2) A strong faith with words and actions to back the name of Christ. There are so many good Christians walking the earth. Their lives are a testimony to the subject they deliver. Are they sinners? Yes.

If you examine the two groups, you find one thing that sticks out if you notice it. Each group is unworthy of the name they take. Do they take the name in vain? What is a name? A name represents the character behind the name. Group one takes the name in vain, but forgiveness is given by Grace (Unmerited favor from God).

If you examine the second group, the message is the same. They may walk somewhat straighter, but they are still lacking what we all lack--even Atheists. We are all sinners in need of salvation. So, where is the confusion?

The confusion is everyone's mistake. The subject does not change. It condemns us all equally. The object is the Christian trying to hold the name in vain. Solomon recognized this problem. He lamented the fact in Ecclesiastes. The same problem that Job had also plagued Solomon. Sure, he was the wise man of the ages. He recognized something that most people miss in this life. With all his wisdom, he was a failed father, king and husband. Here it is simply:

We are out of context with truth. No matter what truth we hold, it will not apply universally in a fallen world. We can see the truth, yet applying it fully is impossible. Here is an example:

If I quote this Proverb, the truth of it can be seen.

Proverbs 1:8

Listen, my son, to your father’s instruction and do not forsake your mother’s teaching.

This is true if your mother and father are upright in all their ways. What if they are crack dealers and prostitutes? Truth applies when we are in context with it. Your walk with your Christian faith was out of context with truth. This is true for all of us. We cannot be in context with truth any more than Solomon. You may search your entire life to find this simple reasoning, yet the same truth holds for Solomon and it holds for us. We are all confusing the actual Truth with the context we find ourselves living in while in this wilderness of life. We are not here to experience a reward. We are here to suffer for that reward.

Simple examples always show the way. Christ was all about giving. He never took a reward or vacation of 9500 rounds of golf. He was on the job, took no money and received only what was given. All his works were to give, as a mirror of God's work with man.

Simple examples. If you smoke, you get cancer. Rewards that are taken end in debt. The debt must be paid. We will suffer the debts we create and we light the fire we burn by. Flip this around and we see the actual truth that can be lived by all of us, even in this place of truth out of context. Suffer the work first and reward follows. Give of yourself at a job and feed your family. Suffering always leads to reward. This is why we are here to suffer. The reward we take is the consuming fire of God. This flaming sword protects the tree of life. Flip the sword and use it to suffer first. Willingly grab the fire and work by giving toward the reward that life offers to the one that follows God's law of love. Love can only give. Love is the fulfillment of the law.

Don't be confused. The average Christian is struggling in this world like you and I are suffering each step. The Christian and the Atheist must each suffer for reward. God in no respecter of persons when it come to the law.

Flip this around. Does the subject convict and judge us or does the Christian? Only the law can judge our actions. The law originates with God.