To all of those people creating threads in the Philosophy forum, asserting so-called "truth"...

How do you know that it is truth at all? How do you know that you know what you know?

How do you know that God(s) or a universal mind exist?

How do you know that there is a dominant force of love?


All of these new age spiritual universal "Truths', or that even think "Jesus is truth" how do you know that these things are true?

In other words, this thread is about Pyrrhonism. How do you know that anything that you know is actually true? Do you actually question your beliefs or do you have them just because it feel good or you had and unexplainable situation so you came up with your own explaination even though there is not evidence or proof?

simple answer.............. You don't know !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

complicated answer......... what rings true to you, backed up by I word I despise due to the history attached with it but the word is FAITH.
with FAITH all things are possible and you can build foundations of truth a complicated story etc etc

Originally posted by arpgme
Do you actually question your beliefs or do you have them just because it feel good or you had and unexplainable situation so you came up with your own explaination even though there is not evidence or proof?

edit on 8-4-2012 by arpgme because: (no reason given)

Have you had one of these 'unexplainable' situations?

I have, my best friend was there with me. And it took us from being agnostic (myself) and complete atheist (my buddy) to having a view that there IS something out there. God, Allah, Buddah, whatever you want to call it.

I would describe the event but I've already been bitched at by the Mods last time I posted it. :/

Although I do have a Pyrrhonian view on life most of the time, I do believe that there is something that most refer to as 'God' out there.

How about yourself?


And yes, I agree with the poster above. You don't know. You will never know, not until you die anyways.

I think it would be unhealthy to get to a point where I assume I know the absolute truth about life. It's good to always keep an open mind and be willing to adjust my beliefs as needed. Life is so complex that nobody can truly know everything about it. I believe in God because he has picked me up many times when I couldn't pick myself up. As for who and what God is exactly....I have no clue.

reply to post by arpgme


All-encompassing, observable, and prone to be duplicated...

You don't know what you don't know, but that doesn't stop the subconscious.

Originally posted by gaurdian2012
simple answer.............. You don't know !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

complicated answer......... what rings true to you, backed up by I word I despise due to the history attached with it but the word is FAITH.
with FAITH all things are possible and you can build foundations of truth a complicated story etc etc

Having faith in something doesn't make it true, does it?

Originally posted by Leigh3
I think it would be unhealthy to get to a point where I assume I know the absolute truth about life. It's good to always keep an open mind and be willing to adjust my beliefs as needed. Life is so complex that nobody can truly know everything about it. I believe in God because he has picked me up many times when I couldn't pick myself up. As for who and what God is exactly....I have no clue.

If you have to adjust your beliefs, that mean that they were completely true in the first place, right? Why believe in something that you'd just have to adjust or get rid of anyway, when you find out it isn't true or that it needs to be significantly changed? How do you know that it was "God" that picked you up?

Originally posted by ArrowsNV
I have, my best friend was there with me. And it took us from being agnostic (myself) and complete atheist (my buddy) to having a view that there IS something out there. God, Allah, Buddah, whatever you want to call it.

How do you know that it was "God" though? How do you know that it wasn't just an illusion or a very powerful spirit?

Originally posted by ArrowsNV
How about yourself?

Sure, I had many experiences. I would even say that some included extra-terrestrials in the astral realm. Just because spirits exist that doesn't mean that a god automatically does, does it? Just because there was a powerful loving force that maybe claimed that it was God, doesn't mean it actually is right? Sure, a loving spirit wouldn't lie, but maybe it was metaphor, or it didn't know but it actually believed what it said.

I'm not saying that this is INDEED the case, maybe it was a God, but why jump to that conclusion without questioning it?

Originally posted by ArrowsNV
And yes, I agree with the poster above. You don't know. You will never know, not until you die anyways.

edit on 4/8/2012 by ArrowsNV because: (no reason given)

And how you know that we'd know even then? If there is an after-life, that doesn't mean that a god is real does it? We could just be illusive spirits in an illusive world, right? Even if a spirit reveals itself as god, we have no way to know if it's true.

People believe that the white light is God based on belief. The bible said it and some other religions said it, but does that mean it is true? Angels are also light, this is what I heard from people's experiences, so what if the "God" that they seen was just a powerful spirit and there may even be more powerful beings that we are unaware of? We'd never know...

I'm not denying a God or an afterlife, I think it is very important to hear people out ESPECIALLY when there are so many universals about the near death experience that people go through, and that I actually had experiences myself, I'm just saying, yes, I have good reason to believe that maybe it was spirit or consciousness and it goes on after death, but can I trust the "EXPERIENCE of the beings on the other side and if they are who they say they are"?

It's about questioning everything even things that we assume to be true, this is how we can find undiscovered truth.

Originally posted by Americanist
reply to post by arpgme

 

All-encompassing, observable, and prone to be duplicated...

You don't know what you don't know, but that doesn't stop the subconscious.

What is all-encompassing? Even if "that" dosn't stop the subsconscious it has no bearing on whether or not what the subconscious holds is true or not, does it? Don't they say that the subconscious can't tell the difference between truths and lies, that it is the conscious brain which does that?

Originally posted by arpgme
In other words, this thread is about Pyrrhonism. How do you know that anything that you know is actually true? Do you actually question your beliefs or do you have them just because it feel good or you had and unexplainable situation so you came up with your own explaination even though there is not evidence or proof?

While I don't know if my beliefs are true, I do know that choosing to believe in some things provides development and prosperity for myself and others, therefore it is good to believe in these things.

I think we are all guilty, at times, of not questioning our beliefs and just going with what feels good or right to us. It's hard not to, because if you spend your whole life questioning every belief you have every time you need to make any decision you will go insane!

Originally posted by arpgme
How do you know that it is truth at all? How do you know that you know what you know?

How do you know that what I claim to be the truth is not the truth?

How do you know what you know is true, in order for you to question or evaluate anything I know?

How do you know that God(s) or a universal mind exist?

How do you know it does not exist?

How do you know that there is a dominant force of love?

How do you know there is not?

The problem with your questions are that they are easily reversed, in a way it makes them redundant.

All of these new age spiritual universal "Truths', or that even think "Jesus is truth" how do you know that these things are true?

They are all true because someone places a value we have invented onto each of those things or beliefs, At the same time they are also false because someone has also chosen to place that value on them.

The truth is, and always will be subjective.

In other words, this thread is about Pyrrhonism. How do you know that anything that you know is actually true? Do you actually question your beliefs or do you have them just because it feel good or you had and unexplainable situation so you came up with your own explaination even though there is not evidence or proof?

edit on 8-4-2012 by arpgme because: (no reason given)

To take that postion, that this is about pyrrhonism, you must also then concede that people can update and change the truth as they see fit. As truth will be a journey, a constant search or inquiry for what is true.

I feel that Individuals, groups and societies will have an ever evolving relationship with the truth, be that a spiritual, philosophical or scientific belief in god or allah or the nature of our universe.

Interesting thread. s and f.

reply to post by atlasastro


I DON'T know if what you claiming is NOT truth, which is why I ask you how you DO know. You are claiming to know this, I am admitting I don't. So I ask you how do you know?


I don't know if it does not exist, which is why I ask how do you know that it does? You are claiming to know, I am admitting my ignorance in this topic...

Sure, the questions can be reverse but I don't see why you would reverse them when YOU are the one with the KNOWLEDGE and I am the ignorant one on this topic asking you for knowledge....

You're saying that it is true because people value them. There are children that value a fat red man flying in the sky with raindeers giving presents on Christmas, that does not make that TRUE just because they value such a belief. And if you say "it is true to them". I would like to say, "it is true to them, IN THEIR MIND".

We don't know if an actual santa claus that flying in the sky every christmas exists, but we absolutely KNOW that whether they value that idea or not, that does not make it true. Same for God beliefs.

Note: I am not saying that God doesn't exist. I am questioning the ENTITY in your experience, how do you KNOW that this entity is God and not something else, and illusion or even just a very powerful spirit...

How do you KNOW that the truth is subjective?


It's ok for me to ask questions because you are saying that you have KNOWLEDGE and I am admitting that i don't, but it doesn't make sense for you to ask me questions because I admit that I don't have knowledge and you just said you did know...

reply to post by arpgme


There is only one truth that cannot be denied. When you work out what it is and then stay with that truth you will be free.

Originally posted by Itisnowagain
reply to post by arpgme

 

There is only one truth that cannot be denied. When you work out what it is and then stay with that truth you will be free.

How do you know this and what "truth" may that be?

reply to post by arpgme


I am.

reply to post by Itisnowagain


The fact that you exist is the only one truth? Are you saying that there is no other truths out there other than you exist? If not, how do you know that this is the only truth?

reply to post by arpgme


It is the only fact i know for sure.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by atlasastro

 

I DON'T know if what you claiming is NOT truth, which is why I ask you how you DO know. You are claiming to know this, I am admitting I don't. So I ask you how do you know?

I didn't claim anything. I simply asked you a question.

I don't know if it does not exist, which is why I ask how do you know that it does? You are claiming to know, I am admitting my ignorance in this topic.

I didn't claim anything. I simply asked you a question.

Sure, the questions can be reverse but I don't see why you would reverse them when YOU are the one with the KNOWLEDGE and I am the ignorant one on this topic asking you for knowledge....

I didin't present any knowledge.
I simply asked questions in order to show that you line of inquiry is made redundant by simply reversing the question onto the person asking it.

If you ask someone how they know something, why not ask yourself why it is you do not know that?
Because then you will search for YOUR OWN truth.

You're saying that it is true because people value them.

No I am not. What I said was the truth is simply a value we place on things.

There are children that value a fat red man flying in the sky with raindeers giving presents on Christmas, that does not make that TRUE just because they value such a belief. And if you say "it is true to them". I would like to say, "it is true to them, IN THEIR MIND".

And so in their mind, their SUBJECTIVE minds, that fat red man is true. The truth is always subjective.

We don't know if an actual santa claus that flying in the sky every christmas exists, but we absolutely KNOW that whether they value that idea or not, that does not make it true. Same for God beliefs.

But you just admitted that Santa was true.

"it is true to them, IN THEIR MIND"

.

Are you saying you are not in your own mind? You don't believe in Santa, and I would say that is true IN YOUR OWN MIND.
Same applies to God.
Subjective.
The truth is simply a value, it is not a thing or a fixed position or a state of being.

Look at science, religion and philosophy. None of them are static, they evolve and change. These are the modes of inquiry we all use to define what is true. And so what is true is simply a value we use to define things as true or not at a specific time in the evolution of the individual and the mode of inquiry used as it and we evolve.

Not one of use, nor science, religion or philosophy can escape itself in order to observe everything from an objective position in order to truely observe what really is.

So, that fat man in the suit is true, and untrue to the child and to you.

Note: I am not saying that God doesn't exist. I am questioning the ENTITY in your experience, how do you KNOW that this entity is God

Because anyone can simply state that they know that and that it is true.
Questioning that can simply be made redundant by asking you, how do you know that what they experience is not God, you can't answer that because you cannot experience you being that person experiencing God.
Paradox anyone.

and not something else, and illusion or even just a very powerful spirit.

That is irrelevant because the value of the illusion or a verypowerful spirit is determined by the subjective mind of the person experiencing that as being God. That is the truth for them and they know it as that truth.

How do you KNOW that the truth is subjective?

Because a small child can believe and know that santa exists, and you can know that he does not.

It's ok for me to ask questions because you are saying that you have KNOWLEDGE and I am admitting that i don't, but it doesn't make sense for you to ask me questions because I admit that I don't have knowledge and you just said you did know...

I have made no claims relating to any belief in God etc.

I am simply stating that the truth is subjective. That what is true for me can be untrue to you. That if you want to question how someone can know or believe something to be true, like God etc it can simply be made redundant by reversing the question.

This is what I stated at the end of my first post:
I feel that Individuals, groups and societies will have an ever evolving relationship with the truth, be that a spiritual, philosophical or scientific belief in god or allah or the nature of our universe.

reply to post by arpgme


Your being is the prime 'fact'.
youtu.be...

reply to post by Itisnowagain


I see, but it may not be the only truth, there may be others, or not. This one is just known, that is all.

reply to post by arpgme


Without that one truth nothing else could be.
I am is not just a truth it is the truth that contains everything.

Originally posted by arpgme
reply to post by Itisnowagain

 

I see, but it may not be the only truth, there may be others, or not. This one is just known, that is all.

This truth is not an assertion of 'so called truth', it is the one thing that cannot be denied and you just toss this truth aside.

Originally posted by atlasastro
I didn't claim anything. I simply asked you a question.

That's true. I was confusing you with another person that DID make a claim. I apologize.

Originally posted by atlasastro
I didin't present any knowledge.
I simply asked questions in order to show that you line of inquiry is made redundant by simply reversing the question onto the person asking it.

Yeah, I was confusing with another person. It would make sense to ask questions if a person DID claim truth though. If a person is saying that they KNOW something about a subject, and an ignorant person says HOW do they have this knowledge, it doesn't make sense for a wise person to say "How do you know I don't?". Because the person just admitted to being ignorant which was the whole purpose of asking for the question.

If someone says they know "X is true" and I say "I don't know anything about X , how did you come to that conclusion that X is true" it doesn't make sense for that person to then say "How do you know that I don't know X is true?" because "I" am the ignorant one asking information from someone who DOES say that the KNOW they have the answer. I admit that I DON'T.

Originally posted by atlasastro
If you ask someone how they know something, why not ask yourself why it is you do not know that?
Because then you will search for YOUR OWN truth.

Sure, but first we must know that reality is subjective. Or this is just a delusion.

Originally posted by atlasastro
What I said was the truth is simply a value we place on things.

Sure, but it is a Value attained by evidence, actual evidence, not just belief.

Originally posted by atlasastro
And so in their mind, their SUBJECTIVE minds, that fat red man is true. The truth is always subjective.

Again, how do you KNOW this?

Originally posted by atlasastro
But you just admitted that Santa was true.

No, I never said that the flying red man in the sky was true in REALITY only as a FANTASY IDEA in their mind. If you want to say that illusions and fantasy is truth, then you have a contradicting definition of truth, because truth is reality, not just an idea of the mind. It is something that is demonstrable of physical sense with evidence.

There is no evidence that a fat red man is flying in the sky every Christmas. We been to the north pole and people say that there was NO factory there...

The factory could be invisible, and so could santa claus, and in that case it COULD be TRUE in reality, but the mere fact that they just believe does NOT make it fact in reality. It is just a belief.

Originally posted by atlasastro
Look at science, religion and philosophy. None of them are static, they evolve and change. These are the modes of inquiry we all use to define what is true. And so what is true is simply a value we use to define things as true or not at a specific time in the evolution of the individual and the mode of inquiry used as it and we evolve.

Not one of use, nor science, religion or philosophy can escape itself in order to observe everything from an objective position in order to truely observe what really is.

So, that fat man in the suit is true, and untrue to the child and to you.

Sure, EVERYTHING about science could ALL be false, it IS a possibility, BUT that does not AUTOMATICALLY mean that whatever people believe is true, unless of course OBJECTIVE REALITY was also false, but we don't KNOW that it isn't and the physical world is EVIDENCE that it is. With the evidence the belief is justified, but with lack of evidence for SUBJECTIVE REALITY it is not justified.

Originally posted by atlasastro

Because anyone can simply state that they know that and that it is true.
Questioning that can simply be made redundant by asking you, how do you know that what they experience is not God, you can't answer that because you cannot experience you being that person experiencing God.
Paradox anyone.

And I would say, I don't know because YOU have the KNOWLEDGE of the EXPERIENCE, YOU KNOW what happened in YOUR experience, so YOU would have to tell me what proof or evidence you have from YOUR EXPERIENCE, I can't tell you what happened in YOUR experience, but I what I CAN say is whether or not there is proof or evidence that what you determined from the entity in your experience was true or not.

If someone sees a talking cow in their experience. I have no proof that it didn't happen. But that is not what I am asking, I am asking how do they KNOW it was a cow? How do they know it isn't a similar being unknown to man? Or a shape-shifter or any other possibility? THAT is what I am asking..