Legit Questions for ATS Liberals…Shed Some Light Please

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posted on Apr, 18 2012 @ 09:26 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


Again with the blaming one side and not realizing the messes were caused by both parties.
You don't even realize that policies take years to change an economy unless they have an instant negative change.

I do have a clue, and it's a shame you can't see it with your head buried in the sand.

You keep in that tower of yours guarded by the mean Republican dragon waiting for the Democrat Knight in Shining Armor to come rescue you.
Never realizing that there is no Knight to rescue us save the ourselves, and that both parties are just fighting over who can eat us up.

I'm done dealing with your blind faith to partisan politics, your random caps lock, inability to debate or refute points other than to say neaner neaner, and your annoying emoticons laughing at your own weak points.




posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 07:22 AM
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reply to post by Pigraphia
 


Do you vote?
I see so many posts like yours claiming that both sides are just as evil yet those posts always come from someone that still manages somehow to choose a side to support themselves just fine.



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 01:06 PM
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reply to post by Pigraphia
 



So this is how you respond to the facts.


You keep in that tower of yours guarded by the mean Republican dragon waiting for the Democrat Knight in Shining Armor to come rescue you.
Never realizing that there is no Knight to rescue us save the ourselves, and that both parties are just fighting over who can eat us up.


Dude, I am debating with your right wing propaganda, and another guy preaching left wing propaganda on the same thread. How could you not clue into this situation?

If you had a clue, then you wouldn't be posting nonsense like this, unless you are getting paid to post this fantasy.

You can choose whether or not to remain ignorant the rest of your life.



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 01:15 PM
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reply to post by LErickson
 


It is always the final argument of the conservative when their ideals have been shown to be nonsense, the both parties are equally bad claim, why defend one, after several pages of their attempt to defend right wing repub free market nonsense.

Followed by, vote RP, when it is obvious that RP is just a trojan horse to keep the suckers drinking the cool aid.



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 01:16 PM
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reply to post by LErickson
 


Yes I do vote.
I also abstain from parts of the vote.

Before going in the voting booth I try to educate myself on all parts of the ballot.
The measures, the judges, the school board etc...

If I can't find enough information which typically happens on the judges and school board members I abstain from voting on that part.
I find it irresponsible to vote on those matters just based on their name, job listed and which party they are in.
I also don't vote down party lines, I have voted for Dems, Reps, Independent etc...
For things like the President, and Governor there is enough information so I alwayse vote on them.
Sadly as in President Bush, v Gore they were both poor choices.
I had to pick the one I thought would mess up our country the least as I have stated earlier on this thread.

If more people actually voted the way I do researching as much on each measure or candidate as possible, and abstaining from voting on persons or measures they can't find enough info on the country would run better.
They won't though instead you have idiots who vote down party lines, vote for only the men, or only the women, the most ethnic name, or the least ethnic name.

So what is the point of your post?
Both sides suck, but if you think critically and go into each voting cycle with an open mind and willing to research you can find the least cruddy of the options available.
What would your solution be not vote entirely?
Yes I pick the least cruddy in each vote, do you have a problem with that?



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 01:25 PM
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reply to post by poet1b
 


You aren't debating against my supposed right wing propaganda and anthers left.
First I'm not right wing, I'm a registered libertarian, but I am even disillusioned with them.
I'm more Independent than anything.

You aren't debating anyone on this thread.
You are ranting extremes of both sides, and poorly at that.
I'm all for playing devils advocate I do that myself, you aren't doing a good job of that though.
You have ignored direct statements from several posters and go on to post on a tangent within the topic and claim that since the person you are debating can't resolve your tangent their argument on the main topic is invalid.

No that isn't how I respond to facts, you refuse to respond to my facts so I've given up.
I'm done, you don't know how to debate so I used the analogy that you are waiting to be saved by one party.
Put simply you don't know how to debate, and quite frankly you come off as a troll.
You ignore points from other posters, then when they call you on it you complain that they ignored your points.
Your points are just a rehash of points they already addressed, you just ignore the counter points they brought up.
You are trying to play both sides, but you are expressing the worst of both sides.
No middle ground person would express the worst of both sides unless they are trolling.
I don't waste my time with trolls, so I'm done.



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 01:31 PM
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reply to post by Pigraphia
 



I had to pick the one I thought would mess up our country the least as I have stated earlier on this thread.


Translation, you voted for GW because you have bought hook, line, and sinker into the right wing, conservative, republican nonsense.

If you had done so much research, then how did you not know about the repub contract on American, which de-regulated oversight of corporate business conduct, leaving vast numbers of avenues for big corps to rip off the people of the U.S., which they began doing immediately?

If you really give a squat, then you need to open your mind to the possibility that the whole free market concept is just one big scam. Just re-marketed communism.



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 01:37 PM
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reply to post by Pigraphia
 


How many posts have you made like this, with no relevant points to the issues, just complaints that I don't jump through your hoops.

The only real point you have made over the last few pages is about business cycles, and when I prove this to be completely wrong, you again resort to personal attacks and fantasy.

You are the one acting like a troll, pretending you have the higher moral ground, while doing almost all the complaining.



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 10:02 PM
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Sorry Nevermind
edit on 19-4-2012 by LErickson because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 10:06 PM
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Originally posted by Pigraphia
So what is the point of your post?

I guess it is that the only one you are fooling by pretending to be smarter than you are is you because no matter how long you stand outside the booth researching and thinking things over, you still ultimately repeatedly vote for people who represent the very parties that your last post claims are both working against us. So either you are wrong or insane given that information.
I guess that was my point.
I was asking a question but if you wanted me to be making a point, this must be it.



posted on Apr, 19 2012 @ 11:11 PM
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reply to post by LErickson
 


I'm not pretending I'm smarter than I am.
Nor do I feel I am wrong or insane.
I don't see how you think I'm trying to fool anyone least of all myself.
If you think I was trying to fool you, or try to appear smarter or whatever you are thinking maybe you have an inferiority complex as well as a persecution complex.
I wasn't trying to appear smarter than you, or fool you into anything.
I was just being honest.
I just try and make the best decisions possible with the information I have at my disposal.

I do the best I can to prepare myself to vote.
I would love for their to be a perfect candidate, or a perfect measure.
There simply isn't.
So I do my best to make sure that of the choices I am given I pick the one who I hope will do the most good relative to the harm I know they will eventually cause.
Voting for the lesser screw up is better than not voting that is for sure.

The world isn't black and white, it is a myriad of grey.
If you think the world is straight black and white, or that trying to pick the shade of grey closest to white is insane maybe you are the one pretending things.

In life you have to make choices, and the choices aren't alwasye going to be easy.

Come back when you have the perfect candidate who can do all the right things and nothing bad.
No back room deals, no decisions against the best interest of everyone.
Until then I will keep voting for the shade of grey that I think does the least damage no matter what party they are in.
edit on 19-4-2012 by Pigraphia because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2012 @ 02:08 AM
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Originally posted by Pigraphia
reply to post by LErickson
 


I'm not pretending I'm smarter than I am.


How would you even know?
I am still pretty happy with my conclusion.

I understand there is bad on both sides and a choice of the least evil is often the only choice. But you went out of your way to express a belief that both parties are actively working together to do evil against us and you still choose from that pool.


If I thought both sides were just getting together to hurt me, I would never ever give up my own personal value and just pick the one that is going to hurt me the least. That is not a smart way to vote, it is a cowardly way to live.
edit on 20-4-2012 by LErickson because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2012 @ 04:43 AM
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reply to post by LErickson
 





If I thought both sides were just getting together to hurt me, I would never ever give up my own personal value and just pick the one that is going to hurt me the least. That is not a smart way to vote, it is a cowardly way to live.


I dont think so, voting for the least evil option is the cornerstone of democracy and makes sense. The only better alternative is starting your own party or a revolution, which are not very likely, arent they?
edit on 20/4/12 by Maslo because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 20 2012 @ 09:20 AM
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Originally posted by LErickson

How would you even know?
I am still pretty happy with my conclusion.

I understand there is bad on both sides and a choice of the least evil is often the only choice. But you went out of your way to express a belief that both parties are actively working together to do evil against us and you still choose from that pool.



How would I know?
I know because I know exactly how smart I am.
I know what I know, but more importantly I know what I don't know.
The latter category is greater than the former, I'm fine with admitting when I don't know things.
I know because I don't pretend, I am not deluded into thinking I know more than I know.

You would be happy with your conclusion, as it is a judgmental one.
Instead of discussing why you find my voting strategy wrong you judged me.
Once you judge the person instead of the topic of discussion or the points they make you can ignore what they said.
(Edit: I didn't intend for this paragraph to be snarky or antagonistic, just pointing out where I think you went wrong in judging the person to avoid discussing the actual points I made.)

I did not say both parties were working together.
I do not now nor have I ever believed they work together just to screw us over.
You seem to be drawing a conclusion from my statements that isn't there to fit your judgement.

If anything I believe the mess is because they aren't working together.

Perhaps I should have been more clear, both parties are working to their own ends to benefit themselves their friends and constituents.
The the first and second more than the latter.
Both parties are so busy looking out for themselves that they don't work together.
The end result is that we get screwed over.

When I say in previous posts something passed by one party, and signed into law by another fails I'm not saying it fails because they work together.
I'm saying it fails because they weren't working together for the benefit of the country.

So be happy with your conclusion, as it judges me and not the content of my posts.
Part of that is my fault, because I did not explain how it is both parties are to blame for this mess.

edit on 20-4-2012 by Pigraphia because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 21 2012 @ 09:25 PM
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hey, we seem to have another option, as long as we can get him on our state ballots....

www.roanoke.com...

just wanted to bring this to everyone's attention, and kind of figure that if I post it anywhere on ats, someone will pick it up and run with it...



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 01:16 AM
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reply to post by Pigraphia
 


Only an idiot would claim to know the exact boundaries of his or her intelligence.


Instead of discussing why you find my voting strategy wrong you judged me.


Maybe you are not honest then because you just told me you are smart enough to understand that I did explain my problem with your voting strategy. In fact I explained it more than once and you have yet to actually address that, Einstein.
edit on 22-4-2012 by LErickson because: (no reason given)



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 01:24 AM
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Originally posted by Maslo
reply to post by LErickson
 





If I thought both sides were just getting together to hurt me, I would never ever give up my own personal value and just pick the one that is going to hurt me the least. That is not a smart way to vote, it is a cowardly way to live.


I dont think so, voting for the least evil option is the cornerstone of democracy and makes sense. The only better alternative is starting your own party or a revolution, which are not very likely, arent they?
edit on 20/4/12 by Maslo because: (no reason given)


I did not say voting for the least evil option. I said voting for the member of a TEAM that has as a goal, my harm, who might do the least harm, but is STILL PART OF THE SAME TEAM THAT JUST WANTS TO HURT ME. No, I will not choose the least painful option from that set of choices.

Are you guys having a hard time following your own rhetoric? I am not the one trying to say Republicans and Democrats are the same thing, working together, only wanting to hurt us, and I still vote for one or the other. I am asking that nonsense be explained to me so back it up.



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 03:08 AM
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reply to post by LErickson
 

You can't make your points so you start in with the insults...
Shows more about you then whatever it is you think of me.

To your first statement, wow just wow.
Your stating that knowing ones limits makes them an idiot?
That is the most absurd statement I have heard in a long time.
Perhaps my wording of "I know exactly how smart I am." should have been phrased better.

Do I know the complete upper bounds of my intelligence, not 100%.
I sure can ball park it, especially when I take a look at myself and ask myself what I know and don't know.
Knowing what I know and what I don't know tells me exactly where I stand and where I need to go from here to grow and learn more.
Honestly I fear someone who thinks it's not possible to know their own limits, that tells me they will approach a situation haphazardly and hope for the best outcome.
Not believing that others can know where they stand you also can't make an accurate assessment of them; let alone the benefits or detriments they bring to the table.
Just because I know my current limits does not mean I do not push them.
If anything knowing where I stand now allows me to better approach a situation, I can identify an area that I know I am weak at, and either ask for help or work to improve myself.


Originally posted by LErickson
Maybe you are not honest then because you just told me you are smart enough to understand that I did explain my problem with your voting strategy. In fact I explained it more than once and you have yet to actually address that, Einstein.
edit on 22-4-2012 by LErickson because: (no reason given)


You have not said why you find my voting strategy wrong.
You have said why some fiction you made up on how I vote is wrong.
You made up some hogwash that you think I said and than went from there.
You aren't discussing the way I vote, you are discussing the made up way you invented out of thin air.

I was even polite and said perhaps I wasn't clear enough giving you the benefit of the doubt.
It's clear I was too polite, as you don't even read much less understand my position.
You would much rather make up some fiction then judge me on it, and proceed to insult me as that is easier than actually reading what I said.

You are a very dangerous individual...
You would rather have a fantasy battle with some fake version of me that you have constructed, and claim victory over that version.
You claim a fictional victory instead of taking the time to actually read and understand what I said.



both parties are working to their own ends to benefit themselves their friends and constituents. The the first and second more than the latter. Both parties are so busy looking out for themselves that they don't work together. The end result is that we get screwed over. When I say in previous posts something passed by one party, and signed into law by another fails I'm not saying it fails because they work together. I'm saying it fails because they weren't working together for the benefit of the country.

I should have added that they are not purposely seeking to harm the country, rather it is the side affect of taking care of themselves and those that keep them in power.
I did not add that because I thought it was self evident; clearly you need that spelled out for you.
So when I vote for the lesser evil I am trying to vote for one that does not care only about their own ends.

Contrast my statements with yours.



voting for the member of a TEAM that has as a goal, my harm, who might do the least harm, but is STILL PART OF THE SAME TEAM THAT JUST WANTS TO HURT ME. No, I will not choose the least painful option from that set of choices. Are you guys having a hard time following your own rhetoric? I am not the one trying to say Republicans and Democrats are the same thing, working together, only wanting to hurt us, and I still vote for one or the other. I am asking that nonsense be explained to me so back it up.


Again I say their goal is not to harm us, their goal is self interest
I never said they were working together with the mutual goal being our harm.
You are making stuff up and claiming I said it.

There is a difference between what I said, and what you claim I said simple as that.



posted on Apr, 22 2012 @ 08:31 AM
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Originally posted by Pigraphia
reply to post by LErickson
 

You can't make your points so you start in with the insults...
Shows more about you then whatever it is you think of me.


I made my point in my first response to you. Are you mad that I am not repeating it slower in more easily understood language or can you just go back and read it finally?


To your first statement, wow just wow.
Your stating that knowing ones limits makes them an idiot?


Well that is not at all what I wrote so I kind of see no point in going further.
Get back to me when you learn to read I guess.



posted on Apr, 23 2012 @ 01:20 AM
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Originally posted by LErickson
I made my point in my first response to you. Are you mad that I am not repeating it slower in more easily understood language or can you just go back and read it finally?


Since you seem to be the one unable to go back and review our discussion I will repost the quoted text.
Try and spot the difference.

Originally posted by LErickson
voting for the member of a TEAM that has as a goal, my harm, who might do the least harm, but is STILL PART OF THE SAME TEAM THAT JUST WANTS TO HURT ME. No, I will not choose the least painful option from that set of choices. Are you guys having a hard time following your own rhetoric? I am not the one trying to say Republicans and Democrats are the same thing, working together, only wanting to hurt us, and I still vote for one or the other. I am asking that nonsense be explained to me so back it up.


Now what I said.

Originally posted by Pigraphia
both parties are working to their own ends to benefit themselves their friends and constituents. The the first and second more than the latter. Both parties are so busy looking out for themselves that they don't work together. The end result is that we get screwed over. When I say in previous posts something passed by one party, and signed into law by another fails I'm not saying it fails because they work together. I'm saying it fails because they weren't working together for the benefit of the country.

I should have added that they are not purposely seeking to harm the country, rather it is the side affect of taking care of themselves and those that keep them in power.
I did not add that because I thought it was self evident; clearly you need that spelled out for you.
So when I vote for the lesser evil I am trying to vote for one that does not care only about their own ends.


There is a world of difference between your fiction, and what I actually said.


Originally posted by LErickson
Well that is not at all what I wrote so I kind of see no point in going further.
Get back to me when you learn to read I guess.


I couldn't agree more...
You failed to address the fact that you made up the way I "vote" then say my method of voting is wrong.
I addressed your points on knowing ones limits, and clarified the point in which I misspoke.

Have fun pretending you have the high ground here because you really don't.


Originally posted by LErickson
Well that is not at all what I wrote so I kind of see no point in going further.
Get back to me when you learn to read I guess.


I just had to repeat this again because I couldn't agree more, though it applies to you not me.
I'm just flat out bamboozled...

Take your own advice and actually look at what I wrote, compared to what you wrote.





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