Are we already being physically tracked by a satellite network?

My friend received a new debit card form Barclays Bank last week, and I noticed it has a new symbol on the front:




I enquired deeper into what this symbol means, and found the following on the Barclays website:

Barclays contactless debit cards

What is Contactless?

Imagine being able to buy those little things like a cup of coffee, sandwich or newspaper without carrying cash.

Contactless technology lets you do just that. It sets you free to make fast and secure payments for items of £15 or less. All you need to do is hold your card near the reader and you're ready to go.

www.barclays.co.uk...

Okay. So this description sounds innocent enough right? Well, I don't think so, and for three main reasons:

1. If the chip inside the card can be read wirelessly by a card reader, then can it be read/tracked by a satellite?
2. Why would this pointless technology be introduced at enormous cost, when it literally only saves the consumer a few seconds? The old-fashined way was to pay cash or punch in your pin-code into the card-reader.
3. One thing I find VERY SPOOKY: when you go to the Barclays website:

www.barclays.co.uk...

and you right click on the image to 'save as', the image is called 'Satellite'. NO S**T! Please check it out!


What do you think? My spidey senses are going wild with this one.

reply to post by chemistry

1. If the chip inside the card can be read wirelessly by a card reader, then can it be read/tracked by a satellite?

2. Why would this pointless technology be introduced at enormous cost, when it literally only saves the consumer a few seconds? The old-fashined way was to pay cash or punch in your pin-code into the card-reader.

3. One thing I find VERY SPOOKY: when you go to the Barclays website:

1. wireless rfid works in 2 modes. Passive or active. These chips are passive, meaning they recieve power from the scanner, and only transmit then. Active are actually powered themselves.

These scanners have a range of about 6 to 10 feet, which is scarey enough knowing the badguys don't have to look over your shoulder, but not scarey enough to be worried about satellites.

2. Enormous cost now, but once fully integrated, saves time and money for the companies, so it's worth the cost now, for the gains later. And it's all part of a move towards cashless society anyways.

With this system, you don't even really need a card reader. Here's a scenario:

Shop sells trinkets. normally, you've got staff, a cashier, etc etc. But instead, all items are rfid tagged, as well as your debit card. You walk in, pick something up, walk out the door, and instantly, you have paid for the item, and it's removed from the stores inventory.

Without anyone doing anything.

See where it's going?

3. You are right to be spooked about that lol

Actually these have been around for YEARS! I still have a dongle that I can waive at the Mobile Gas Station and the transaction is automatic. Like Phish says, these are so limited as to be only useful a few feet away.

What makes you think you are not already being tracked via satellite? ALL GPS nets are satellite controlled as well as Cable TV, and of course Satellite TV.

I am aware that Satellite TV and GPS/Tom Tom services track our activity, and probably mobile phone data is used to track human movements too.

I have this picture in my head (maybe it is crazy, you tell me), of 'officials' sat at a big screen somewhere and thay can tyoe in your name, DOB, ect, and find out exactly where you are, and where you are travelling too, etc. If the chips inside the debit cards are passive, then can a satellite beam enough power down to 'activate' the chips? Can they be tracked?

This really does make me angry.

As another poster mentioned, RFID, not satellite technology. Used in close proximity to a power source. And as another poster mentioned, these things have been around for ages. In some countries you can simply pick up a card (nameless), load money on it and begin purchasing around the city.

It's very convenient, very fast, and I'm a little surprised it's taking so long to come to the West. Attaching user data to the cards though, IMO, is not needed unless maybe asked for my user.

Originally posted by chemistry
I am aware that Satellite TV and GPS/Tom Tom services track our activity, and probably mobile phone data is used to track human movements too.

I have this picture in my head (maybe it is crazy, you tell me), of 'officials' sat at a big screen somewhere and thay can tyoe in your name, DOB, ect, and find out exactly where you are, and where you are travelling too, etc. If the chips inside the debit cards are passive, then can a satellite beam enough power down to 'activate' the chips? Can they be tracked?

This really does make me angry.

just gave me a random thought of an IR/Xray satellite that would be pointed at earth watching all these heat signatures and walking skeletons moving about that they could zoom in on demand.

reply to post by chemistry

This really does make me angry.

Why would it make you angry?

Passive RFID tags rely entirely on the reader as their power source. These tags are read up to 20 feet (six meters) away, and they have lower production costs, meaning that they can be applied to less expensive merchandise.

Link

reply to post by chemistry


The simple answer is: "Theoretically, yes. Practically with technology, even pre-market technologies... no."

There are several forms of RFID in existence - but all of them are designed to work in very short wavelengths at very low nominal power levels. In some cases - even with the most sensitive satellite components available - directly receiving that signal is impossible (due to the way different frequencies interact with the ionosphere - just as the atmosphere funks with visible light spectra to make the sky look blue - so, too, does it do to radio frequencies).

There are a host of methods for indirectly tracking an RFID device (such as attempting to take measurements of the atmosphere and resolving RF waveforms out of it) - but you are looking at a lot of guesswork involved, and very limited uses... particularly if you are going to attempt to track thousands of these things within a few -cubic- miles of space (humans don't just exist on a 2d plane - we go both above the surface and below it).

Further - you're looking at a -lot- of effort to track mostly useless information. It is much more practical to use your credit/debit card transactions to identify areas and times you frequent (such as a favorite gas station, restaurant, ATM, bank, etc). Not only is that information more valuable to financial institutions, investors, etc - it is also more valuable to people who would, for whatever reason, want to observe or attack you. Why spend trillions on a satellite network that -might- be able to locate you at any time of the day... when the financial transaction, itself, can identify a few places you frequent to pick you up for a specialized surveillance team?

That... or you can look at their twitter page... where many people will announce their plan to do anything from sit on the front porch to take a trip overseas.... look at their facebook check-in listings... or use covert malware to use their smart-phone's fine-resolution GPS to track them for a week and upload the data to a centralized server (if they don't voluntarily have programs that do this, already).

Far more practical ways of doing this are already utilized... often voluntarily. There are several programs out there that track your location in the background and upload data to a server to estimate traffic congestion, airport traffic/checkpoint congestion, whether or not restaurants are seated to capacity (IE - have a long wait time), etc.

I'm not saying that it's all good - or that it's all bad. It is just what it is - people consenting to being tracked so that other people using the program can be better informed about upcoming travel, business, or other decisions.

Originally posted by chemistry

1. If the chip inside the card can be read wirelessly by a card reader, then can it be read/tracked by a satellite?

No. Not only can't it be tracked by satellite, it can't be read at 6-10 feet either as someone else mentioned. The reason why is, this is an h-field part. E-field parts you can read a bit farther, sometimes quite a bit, at the expense of making it pretty low-functionality. The sort that are in credit cards are actually pretty capable 16 or 32 bit processors these days. So you need more power than you can get with an e-field part. Way more. That means an h-field style part, and a limit of maybe 6" in practice.

2. Why would this pointless technology be introduced at enormous cost, when it literally only saves the consumer a few seconds? The old-fashined way was to pay cash or punch in your pin-code into the card-reader.

It doesn't give the clerk your card number. And, if they actually use it, most of the contactless cards have more security built in. The parts have the capability, anyway.

What do you think? My spidey senses are going wild with this one.

Calm them.

PS: GPS receivers don't send anything to the satellite either, saw someone else post that.

Originally posted by chemistry
I am aware that Satellite TV and GPS/Tom Tom services track our activity, and probably mobile phone data is used to track human movements too.

Not at all. GPS receivers don't transmit anything whatever. Your satellite TV doesn't either, although it does phone in pay per view info.

I have this picture in my head (maybe it is crazy, you tell me), of 'officials' sat at a big screen somewhere and thay can tyoe in your name, DOB, ect, and find out exactly where you are, and where you are travelling too, etc.

All that stuff's already somewhere. You don't need to read it from your back pocket. The tracking part is from too many movies.

If the chips inside the debit cards are passive, then can a satellite beam enough power down to 'activate' the chips? Can they be tracked?

No. If you use one, it sends a record of where, how much and when to the credit card company, so in that sense you're being "tracked".

This really does make me angry.

Por nada.

Don't forget your cell phone,computer,car,credic card,and all those camera's on the streets and who knows what else.

No we're not.
NFC (Near Field Communication) as is now also being included in some cell phones has a range of a couple of inches at the most,purposely made as very short range so they can't be cloned.This is one step on from the traditional RFID devices that are purely one way,NFC is two way.
We can't be tracked by them but of course we can just by carrying our beloved cellphones with us 24/7 as most people seem to do nowadays,this is of course not done by satellites but over the existing cell networks.

The main concern I have with contactless technology, is the same problem I have with the sort of car keys that have the encrypted chips in them, which communicate with a cars engine management unit.

That is the following: A thief does not need your keys to steal your car, or your credit card to steal your money. Nowadays, they do not have to even get within a foot of you, to take anything you own electronically. Your phone, your tablet computer and all data therein, your car, your money. Anything they want is now at thier fingertips, because all it takes is a device which can read the signals being sent and recieved by the object of thier attention, and you have just been robbed without having had a chance to lay hands on the scallywag that has just flummoxed you.

This is why I prefer a wallet with cash in it. At least then I can fight for my money if I so choose, and have a cats chance in hell at least of keeping it.

im pretty sure its an rfid and can only be read for like 4-5 meters (i think thats about 12 feet)

reply to post by tetriswoooo


Great, four or five meters. That means that when I walk in a crowd, or get on a bus, someone could steal from me and I wouldnt know! No thank you very much. I couldnt give a fig if they want to find me, but I do not want my money to be electronic.

Originally posted by tetriswoooo
im pretty sure its an rfid and can only be read for like 4-5 meters (i think thats about 12 feet)

It depends on the power of the transmitter,I have a PKE (Passive Keyless Entry) system on my car that uses a generic RFID device that has a carefully controlled range of exactly 1.8 metres and in my experience that's about as far as they'll ever go.They're made short range on purpose purely so it will only pick the most local device first,car transponders are normally less than 5cm for the same reason.

Great now hackers will be sniffing up your RFID data for exploitation.

Originally posted by TrueBrit
The main concern I have with contactless technology, is the same problem I have with the sort of car keys that have the encrypted chips in them, which communicate with a cars engine management unit.

That is the following: A thief does not need your keys to steal your car, or your credit card to steal your money. Nowadays, they do not have to even get within a foot of you, to take anything you own electronically.

Well, it might seem that way but it's not quite. Even if you intercept the key data exchange with a receiver, you can't really use it - the car and the key are changing the code every time. You can't just replay it.

Same with the card, you really can't pick it up from ten feet away, but even if you did, there's a nice bit of encryption there that would take the NSA to pick apart.

Originally posted by tetriswoooo
im pretty sure its an rfid and can only be read for like 4-5 meters (i think thats about 12 feet)

It is RFID, but the problem is, there are several types of RFID and they are qualitatively different.

This type, you might get 6". Or 10-12cm in dog years.

Originally posted by chemistry
I have this picture in my head (maybe it is crazy, you tell me), of 'officials' sat at a big screen somewhere and thay can tyoe in your name, DOB, ect, and find out exactly where you are, and where you are travelling too, etc. If the chips inside the debit cards are passive, then can a satellite beam enough power down to 'activate' the chips? Can they be tracked?

No, they can't. Read up on near field vs. far field. Buy some aluminum foil if you're still concerned. Anyway, do you really think the government would spend billions designing and launching a satellite to track your credit card from space, when they can just track how you use it here on Earth, or triangulate your mobile phone from the cell network, or park a surveillance van outside your house for a day or two? What are you doing that's so important you think They're watching you, and where are you doing it that you think They need a satellite to get eyes on you?

This really does make me angry.

Less emotion. More critical thinking.