A question on Obamacare

For the past 2 years, I have made under the poverty threshold. Healthcare has not been a problem because I could get on my dad's insurance. However, I recently turned 26.

I suppose my question is that, when the Obamacare laws go into full effect, it's people like me that will ultimately be punished and how exactly that's fair or right.

Even catastrophic insurance for somebody my age is at least 100 dollars a month. I can choose to pay this, I can choose to go on Medicaid, or I can pay a fine.

That's right. Because I'm poor but don't want to mooch off the state, I am going to be fined. I'm going to be punished for not wanting to go on government assistance. So tell me, being reasonable, what am I supposed to do?

Frankly, I'm thinking about renouncing my citizenship.

reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck


You have several options.

You can purchase your own insurance plan - which can be expensive. You can go to work for a place that provides insurance for you, which is what many people do, albeit you have to pay a premium.

It was just admitted during the supreme court hearing that there will be many many people who receive healthcare but will not have to pay for it. You may fall into that category. I think there is a thread here on ATS about it.

reply to post by MentorsRiddle


Both of those options are expensive. And the number of places offering health benefits decreases by the day.

My point being that, reasonably, I see nothing else that I can do but either renounce my citizenship or, because the IRS will be the one levying the fine, become a tax dodger.

reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck


I'm sure you won't like my answer, but here goes. When I was your age, I was in graduate school working on my PhD. I had NO medical insurance, and I worked at menial job in all my spare time to make ends meet, supporting my wife and child. I didn't complain about my situation, but worked my butt off to get out of the hole. Furthermore, as the son of immigrants(legal, I might add), my parents had no medical insurance either, but they worked 6 days a week to survive.
I never heard them ever complain about their situation, and I was grateful for all they did for me and my siblings. Our generation never believed or relied upon the Entitlement Attitude that exists in this country today. In fact, the lack of that crutch is what I believe made our country great. When a country gets to the point that the majority BELIEVE that they are ENTITLED to things for free, it is the signal that the country is decaying, perhaps beyond hope.
Those that know me, realize that I am a straight shooter, and I hesitate to say this, but I will, because I truly believe you NEED to hear this"
Please get off your butt, and do what needs to be done to avoid becoming dependent upon the government, or excuses. Work hard, and become independent.

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


I think I made it clear that I was actually angry that I was going to be given a choice to either pay a fine or be on government care.

Way to tell somebody who is actually angry about possibly being forced into mooching off the government to "get off their butt".

I left out the fact that I'm currently in college, but you obviously dropped in your judgmental garbage without actually even reading my post, so that probably wouldn't have made a difference.

Originally posted by AnIntellectualRedneck
That's right. Because I'm poor but don't want to mooch off the state,

You are also young and no offense...but ignorant of the reality of life.

In the context of healthcare "mooching" off the state is not your decision. Treating injury and disease isn't an option like buying a candybar.

If you get mugged, in a fight at some bar or hit by a car, or contract some crazy flu or more serious disease...paramedics are not allowed to simply shoot you on the spot...which is what I assume you would request since you are poor, not wanting to "mooch" and all that, they must actually treat you and everyone else (paying customers) will pay that bill through inflated insurance costs and medical bills while at the same time the medical providers that treated you will hammer you into bankruptcey with the outstanding bills. You get crushed financially while everyone else picks up the tab for your treatment. It happens every day. Obamacare looks to defer that cost across everyone including those that believe they are immortal and will never need to see a doctor....everyone pays a little with strict cost controls in place...and no one is left with the choice to die painfully or live and go bankrupt while everyones elses rates rise to cover it.

You are already mooching...cuz you will need Medical assistance you can't pay for at some point...it is the nature of being alive.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
Furthermore, as the son of immigrants(legal, I might add), my parents had no medical insurance either, but they worked 6 days a week to survive.
I never heard them ever complain about their situation,

in 1970 the percapita annual spending for healthcare needs was $350 (adjusted for todays dollars)
Today the average spending per capita/per annum is $8,500.

Just saying, is it possible that your parents didn't complain because Medical costs were exponentially smaller back then and more easily paid for out of pocket?

Please be an example for our newer members and make every post matter.
ATS policy on comments that do not add to the discussion

Originally posted by AnIntellectualRedneck
reply to post by ProfEmeritus

 

I think I made it clear that I was actually angry that I was going to be given a choice to either pay a fine or be on government care.

Way to tell somebody who is actually angry about possibly being forced into mooching off the government to "get off their butt".

I left out the fact that I'm currently in college, but you obviously dropped in your judgmental garbage without actually even reading my post, so that probably wouldn't have made a difference.

ok well then....sign an affidavit that if you get sick and you do not have your own health insurance...the government has a right to let you die....because you refused to "mooch" off the government. and you are in college???... well, at least you didn't compare government mandated healthcare to U.S. supreme court anthony scalia's remark about government mandating you to eat brocolli. what a fat load he is to use that comparison. makes me embarrassed to have a U.S. supreme court judge like that.

reply to post by Indigo5


Oh yes (she says somewhat bitterly).

It was cheaper back then. We had a handicapped child, who died from his birth defects and I can tell you a long and rather bitter story about what kind of health care we had access to back then when we were young and poor.

It's quite a contrast to my friend (much younger) in a similar situation with a handicapped child. She has services now that only the rich could afford back when I needed them.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck

 

I never heard them ever complain about their situation, and I was grateful for all they did for me and my siblings. Our generation never believed or relied upon the Entitlement Attitude that exists in this country today. In fact, the lack of that crutch is what I believe made our country great. When a country gets to the point that the majority BELIEVE that they are ENTITLED to things for free, it is the signal that the country is decaying, perhaps beyond hope.
--
Please get off your butt, and do what needs to be done to avoid becoming dependent upon the government, or excuses. Work hard, and become independent.

If you take that route, no one is entitled to anything -- no help for houses when you get hit by tornadoes, no help when your house gets burned in a wildfire, no help if you are elderly (no fixed income)

What differentiates humans from animals and makes us successful as a species is empathy and altrusim. Societies with very harsh social values (no empathy, no charity, no altruism) don't do as well in negotiations with each other and with other countries. There is a sense of entitlement, yes, but I think that if you look at other countries with similar programs (like, say, Canada) you will find that the whole nation is not full of slackers and goof offs.

reply to post by Byrd


I am so sorry to hear that and yes, quality and availability of care are huge factors to consider when comparing the inflation of healthcare costs and history. That fact acknowledged, we still pay far more for healthcare in this country right now when compared to countries with higher life expectancey, lower infant mortality, full government coverage etc. etc. We simply are doing it less well than other countries and charging much more.

Originally posted by AnIntellectualRedneck
For the past 2 years, I have made under the poverty threshold. Healthcare has not been a problem because I could get on my dad's insurance. However, I recently turned 26.

I suppose my question is that, when the Obamacare laws go into full effect, it's people like me that will ultimately be punished and how exactly that's fair or right.

Even catastrophic insurance for somebody my age is at least 100 dollars a month. I can choose to pay this, I can choose to go on Medicaid, or I can pay a fine.

That's right. Because I'm poor but don't want to mooch off the state, I am going to be fined. I'm going to be punished for not wanting to go on government assistance. So tell me, being reasonable, what am I supposed to do?

Frankly, I'm thinking about renouncing my citizenship.

If you do not meet the tax filing thresh hold of $10,000 (est, high nine thousands) you
are exempted.

If buying insurance is equivalent to more than 2% of your gross income, you can also be
exempted.

The rules roll out slowly, but I am in the same boat right now, broke... I will be OK, so
I assume you will be too

If you take that route, no one is entitled to anything -- no help for houses when you get hit by tornadoes, no help when your house gets burned in a wildfire, no help if you are elderly (no fixed income) What differentiates humans from animals and makes us successful as a species is empathy and altrusim.

reply to post by Indellkoffer

Actually, no one is entitled to anything, other than life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Unfortunately, many of you have come to EXPECT the "government" to bail you out. People build homes in New Orleans 6 feet BELOW sea level, and then expect the government to pay to rebuild when a hurricane wipes them out. People build homes in fire-prone areas, and expect the same, when wild fires occur.
Wake up and smell the roses. 51% of Americans are supporting 49% of Americans who pay no taxes. The house of cards is about to fall, and those of you who are waiting for a government bailout will be left out in the cold. Try reading the fable of the grasshopper and the ant.
As to the issue of health care, the reasons are many is to why costs have skyrocketed. First and foremost, is the the fact, again, those who pay for it, must also support those that do not. No one in the Constitution does it say anyone has a right to healthcare. That should be an individual's responsibility.
Finally, when those who infer that I am heartless, I would suggest that when you have adopted as many third world orphans, raised them, and put them through college, as my wife and I have, then I might listen to you.
Lacking that, I stand by my claim that society today is full of a large group of spoiled brats who think the world owes them a living. It is you that drag our society down. Grow up, and stop believing you are owed anything, other than a chance in the greatest country in the world to get ahead, if you work hard and work smart. Try it, for a change.

I see this argument as the same as social welfare programs. I am forcibly taxed for multiple social welfare programs that I will never utilize, including medicaid. I have no choice in the matter where my taxes go. Why is this mandate any different than that?

Originally posted by AnIntellectualRedneck
For the past 2 years, I have made under the poverty threshold. Healthcare has not been a problem because I could get on my dad's insurance. However, I recently turned 26.

I suppose my question is that, when the Obamacare laws go into full effect, it's people like me that will ultimately be punished and how exactly that's fair or right.

Even catastrophic insurance for somebody my age is at least 100 dollars a month. I can choose to pay this, I can choose to go on Medicaid, or I can pay a fine.

That's right. Because I'm poor but don't want to mooch off the state, I am going to be fined. I'm going to be punished for not wanting to go on government assistance. So tell me, being reasonable, what am I supposed to do?

Frankly, I'm thinking about renouncing my citizenship.

Before you renounce your citizenship, file a suit in federal court making the case that your rights under the 13th amendment were violated. The 13th amendment is the anti slavery law, and also prevents forced servitude that in addition makes a penalty of imprisonment for failing to comply in service.

In other words, if you "must" buy insurance, or pay a hefty "penalty" for the failure to do so, that money must be gotten by work that you would have to do to pay for that insurance, or the penalty. Therefore you would then be working involuntarily to pay for something the government has said you must buy, and that is involuntary servitude. basically, a form of slavery. performing work for which you do not benefit from, and for which another, namely, the government does benefit from. Either by payment for, or because of. The government is then your master and you now are it's slave.

This is not like taxation in which the government may institute a tax for the operation of government and it's necessary functions. Penalties are levied because of some action or inaction on the part of the person being punished. This is why Scalia, the Chief Justice made a big deal out of, "can the government force you to buy a cell phone or broccoli ? and " We're not stupid... ... it's a penalty, so why do you keep calling it a tax ? "

The law will be tossed for it's violations. Unfortunately, that could anger many democrats and get them to the polls. So there is good news and not so good news.

reply to post by burdman30ott6


Burdman, you're correct. Of course, if they DON'T overturn the mandate, then we have much, much bigger problems, namely the ability of the US government to force you to buy just about anything they want to push. If that happens, then the US will truly have become a police state. The fact that the vote is likely to be 5-4 is very disturbing, regardless of the way it goes. That says that at least 4(and we're pretty sure we know who they are) and possibly Judge Kennedy and/or even Roberts, believe that there is no problem with compelling the FEDERAL government to buy insurance or pay a penalty.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

What part of the 10th Amendment to the US Constitution do they not understand?
Very, Very troubling.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus

People build homes in New Orleans 6 feet BELOW sea level, and then expect the government to pay to rebuild when a hurricane wipes them out.

Whoa...New Orleans did not flood because they were below Sea Level, many of the coastal cities of the south are below sea level, Galveston etcl. etc. It flooded due to the failure of the levies that the US Government (Specifically the US Core of Engineers) built. Governments require extensive permits to construct a house and require exhaustive safety measures from plumbing, electrical, foundation etc...the hoops to jump through are endless, it is not irrational to assume that same government has deemed it a safe location to build seeing as they demand approval before building. If New Orleans was 3 feet above sea level the flooding still would have occured in a near identical fashion. Not my opinion, but rather the result of exhaustive studies and analysis. I would ask you to show some respect for the thousands of people who suffered and lost thier lives and not be so flippant and careless with the facts for the sake of rhetoric.