Vegetarians vs. meat-eaters: Standoff is over

Everyone has a "My friend went vegan and is now healthy/unhealthy" story.
Everyone knows someone who went back to meat, after being a vegetarian for years, and they seem to feel great.
The truth is, that none of these anecdotes and stories can be relied upon to truly judge what is healthy or not... there are just too many other variables in a person's life that could contribute to their relative health, or lack there-of.
I've been a vegetarian for a couple of years, and I feel like I am healthier than I've ever been. But when I stopped eating meat, I also cut out almost all processed and refined foods. I try to eat whole, raw foods as much as possible.
Perhaps I feel great because I don't eat as much bread as I used to... or sugar.
I've known people who have gone vegetarian, but don't really focus on eating fresh fruits and vegetables. It's extremely easy to eat an unhealthy vegetarian diet. Many people who don't eat meat, end up eating way too much refined/processed sugar and flour, and of course, tofu.
My instincts tell me that eating food that's as close as possible to it's natural state, is likely the healthiest option.
I have my reasons for not eating meat, but I understand that others have their reasons for eating meat, and I don't feel it's my place to judge.
I do know that if I ever decided to consume meat again, I would only eat meat raised locally and as "humanely" as possible.
People get quite defensive when discussing this topic, and the same basic "arguments" end up being thrown back and forth.
Everyone is different... and that's ok.
I do know that more people will respect your arguments if you don't act militant about them.

reply to post by purplemer


If we didn't put a strain on the environment with our modern agricultural practices, there would most definitely not be enough food to feed the world.

Originally posted by Phenomium

Originally posted by vnmusic
I totally support eating veggies.

If you're Christian, then remember Genesis 1:29 ->
Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;

The bible didn't mention: "Meat shall be food for you", did it?

Most religions praise "thou shall not kill" mentality.

I'd like to be on God's side, so on the safe side, I will avoid involved with any kind of blood.

Isaiah 1:15 - New International Version (NIV):

When you spread out your hands in prayer,
I hide my eyes from you;
even when you offer many prayers,
I am not listening.

Your hands are full of blood!

YES! the bible does mention eating meat...A LOT!. accusing Christians of not being Christian because of eating meat and coming at them with a Holier than thou approach, using the Bible as a reference.....you had better know your material first, instead of cherry picking the verses only YOU want to see.

.....and right from the same book you quoted from for starters..

Genesis 9:1-3: "Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the earth. The fear and dread of you will fall upon all of the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, now I give you everything."



Proverbs 12:27

"The slothful man roasteth not that which he took in hunting: but the substance of a diligent man is precious."
--------

Luke 24:42-43, "And they gave him (Jesus) a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. And he took it, and did eat before them."
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Exodus 12:3,6,8,46 - God commanded each family in Israel to kill and eat a lamb for the Passover feast.
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Deuteronomy 12:15,20-22 - When Israelites offered animal sacrifices, they and/or the priests ate much of the meat. This was God's blessing to them. [15:19-23; 14:26; Num. 18:9,10; Ex. 29:32; Lev. 7:15; 8:31]
---------
Leviticus 11:2,3,9,21,46,47 - Under the law God forbade eating unclean animals, yet He expressly authorized the eating of many clean animals: mammals, fish, birds, and insects. [Deut. 14:4,6,9,11,20]
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1 Timothy 4

1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
-----


Colossians 2:16

Freedom From Human Rules
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

_________________ Pretty much sums it up doesn't it? Thre is so much more that I didn't even have the time to add. Challenge me and I will certainly give you more proof.

edit on 21-3-2012 by Phenomium because: (no reason given)

I'm not surprised. I've heard these contradictions in the bible a lot.
(There are lists of them)

Jesus preached "God is Love", "Love your enemies" and
"Do to others as you would have them do to you.", etc.
It's all about having love and compassionate that the bible teaches us.

What's the point of going to church, pray and donate money for the poor? because we
have that love (to all beings) in every one of us.

What most important is that we, as decent human beings, listen to our hearts, our
conscience.

Would you let someone hurt you or your loved ones?
Would you let someone hunt you or your loved ones for food?

No, it's natural that you'd protect yourself.
Remember ""Do to others as you would have them do to you." (Luke 6:31).

Likewise, the animals are our younger brothers and sisters. Just that they don't speak our
language. Does this mean we can kill them? What did they do to deserve this treatment?

For example, Dog is man's best friend, isnt't it? Would you kill your friend for food?

There is such a thing called "Karma".

If we have not learned the lesson of love before we die, we shall need to come
back to Earth to relearn again, again and again. It's called Reincarnation.

I support eating veggies because it's so logical and don't want to suffer because of bad karma.

Others who want to commit direct killings or indirect killings (eating meat), it's their choice. But
"as you sow so shall you reap".

Cheers

Originally posted by theroostercrowsatnite
reply to post by purplemer

 

If we didn't put a strain on the environment with our modern agricultural practices, there would most definitely not be enough food to feed the world.

What rubbish - Monsanto would be proud of you.
There is enough land to grow enough food naturally to feed the world several times over

I rarely post here, although I read the thoughts of other here daily.
The vegetarian thing hits close to home so I thought I'd post what i feel are the "bottom lines" from a 15 year vegetarian.......for the little that it is worth

Vegetarianism or close to it is clearly a superior way of life.
Across the globe, socities whose diets focus on vegetables with a bit of meat perhaps thrown in have proven to be healthier and have a less incidence of cancer and a host of other maladies.

From a spiritual perspective the suffering caused by mass factory farming is a sad and despicable story in and of itself.

Vegans and vegetarians look, and feel younger than their meat eating counterparts. I once knew a 43 year old raw-foodist who looked as young as the 20 year old ladies I encountered her around. I have many other such anecdotes but we don't need to air them here.

Vegetarianism in general is slowly becoming the norm as you can tell by the fact that , at least in my area, the meat section shrinks a little every year and the vegetarian section grows a little every year.

I'm not trying to change anyones mind as I feel it is futile , but in the end meat consumption at high levels will slowly go by the wayside and be supplanted by better food and better ideas.

Old habits die hard. And you also have the meat industry campaigns which constantly try to make meat-eating seem like the "manly" way to live.

If i was on a desert island I'd eat what I had to survive but gladly I'm not.

Wish I had more to contribute to the science of it at the moment but that information is NOT hard to find nor can it be refuted in any real sense. Theres not really much debate to be had about it.

Perhaps ZERO animal products is not optimal in our developement but theres a TON of evidence suggesting that more consumption of fruits and vegetables is a BETTER way to live regardless of ethical concerns.....

thanks,
my two cents

You know what's funny?

I see all these omni's being very defensive in this thread.. I have not seen one Vegetarian or Vegan dictating to people how to eat. And in real life.. I have not seen Vegetarians dictating to people either. There will be some who do. ( I have not met any)

....Just as there are meat eaters, like in this thread- that will try and drill in into your head until you are blue in the face that we are meant to eat meat! I constantly have friends and family telling me that meat is healthy and trying to get me to eat it! For God's sake, I just don't want to! I don't try and force Veggies and Chickpeas on my friends and family...

Just quit it. No one told you to stop eating meat. Someone just presented the fact that it shortens your life span, and isn't as healthy as once thought.

Back in the day, cigarettes were advertised to help with a sore throat. Things have changed since then, haven't they?

Stop being childish... If you feel that someone is trying to guilt you when they clearly aren't, then obviously it is a personal problem for you.

Originally posted by purplemer
reply to post by torqpoc

 

You do realise that without the protein from meat man wouldn't have evolved into what he is now, don't you?

Is that an opinion or have you got any science to back it up. I have managed to evolve perfectly well without eating meat..

Science books are your friend.

T

Studies like this, and all sorts of other, completely different, studies crop up all the time. Then a while later there's another study that goes in totally the opposite direction.

I've been veggie since the age of 7 due to my parents (who gave me the choice at that age) but i've got nothing against anyone eating it, i don't force my beleifs on others or even judge them for it - Live and Let Eat

I don't like the cruelty involved in some methods of killing food animals, and i don't like all the crap they put into animals and their feed.

I think it's a shame that normal, healthy, untainted meat is now called 'organic' and costs more than abnormal. unhealthy, chemically-tainted meat.

My guess is that, when we were hunter-gatherers, meat was a luxury.

reply to post by Tripple_Helix
It seems that women may need a diet including meat, according to this survey (www.dailymail.co.uk...). For anyone who can't use the link, it is the findings of another survey that says that women need a moderate amount of red meat to help prevent depression.

The point is surveys can say anything you want them to, meat is good, meat is bad, meat will make you ill, meat will make you well, meat will make you glow in the dark ! I do know that some vegetarians especially vegans do have problems maintaining a balanced diet not only for themselves but for their children in particular. This is not an anecdote from a friend, something I read etc but from working with health care professionals who had to treat children with malnutrition in a major UK city because their parents had them on a strict vegan diet from a very early age. The children were obviously suffering from a poor diet but trying to convince the parents was a nightmare, one even accused us of being sponsored by the meat industry while ignoring the fact her child was verging on collapse. It seems that this is not only a problem in the UK (news.bbc.co.uk...).

Any extreme diet is unhealthy for you, if you feel meat is bad for you morally and psychologically don't eat it but I love meat and I am not apologetic about it. I am off for a very large bacon sandwich now, although I may be virtuous and put a tomato on there too.

I tried vegetarianism before and the protein substitutes do not work out. I found that when food has a lot of soy (the main protein substitute) it makes me break out in hives and I'll just politely say it doesn't stay with me on either end. I drank a glass of soy milk and 1/2 hour later felt like I had the flu and the soy milk came back faster than it went down.

I've seen vegetarianism work for some and not for others. I have a cousin and to put it bluntly she is lethargic, sickly, and always complaining of clumps of hair falling out. I just do not think that the diet agrees with her as it does not agree with me but, she still does it. She is also allergic to soy and went to nuts and such to supply protein and her physician has told her that her body is not absorbing enough protein from these to be healthy. She is stubborn and I suspect she will die from nutritional deficiency. She is 26.

Having meat could be sustainable but, few would go through the effort. My grandfather raised a cow, chickens, and garden on 1/2 acre of land and fed his family of 10 children after his wife took off (who could blame her with 10 children!). They were dirt poor but, their mini farm supplied nearly all their food for the year. The challenge is keeping things in balance. The cow made awesome fertilizer for the garden and did a bang up job keeping the grass cut.


My point on that is that there has to be a difference between nutritional values between an animal that lives carefree and eats good food and thus becomes food than an animal that is kept in feces covered floors, crowded, stressed, conditions, trash for food, and smelling ammonia. All this while being injected with antibiotics and dewormers to keep them alive in their foul conditions while often mistreated by their caregivers. We already know that true free range eggs has more nutritional value than caged bird eggs and free range chickens themselves need very little if any medication. (Omega 3).

reply to post by majel42


Funny, you fail to mention all the children who suffer from diabetes, childhood obesity or bordering on one of these which is an outcome of eating chicken nuggets, happy meals etc, etc.

Any extreme diet is unhealthy for you, if you feel meat is bad for you morally and psychologically don't eat it but I love meat and I am not apologetic about it.

Definitely, I agree with you. An extreme of anything can harm a person... This is my point, no one asked you to apologize.

I am off for a very large bacon sandwich now, although I may be virtuous and put a tomato on there too.

This is the type of thing you hear from many meat eaters on here.. "Aaarg.. I love me a rare bloody steak!" or "Mmmmm Ribs are sooooo goooood!!!" or what you just wrote above.

Point is, it's childish. What, are you trying to make us want some??? What are you guys trying to get at by saying stuff like this? I could say many 'funny' or nasty things about eating that bacon sandwich. But I wont, because it's your food.

Average life expectancy is the highest in regions of the world where fish is a large part of the diet, and guess what, fish is meat.

Originally posted by bl4ke360
Average life expectancy is the highest in regions of the world where fish is a large part of the diet, and guess what, fish is meat.

Fish is not meat by definition - Fish flesh is different from animal flesh and breaks down in the digestive system more easily than animal flesh.

reply to post by Ericthenewbie


No no no, way to defensive mate. The knuckledraggers wasn't aimed at you - I refer to the people that I commented on earlier in the thread, the people I encounter at work.
But, cherry picking information can be used by almost any side in any argument. That's trouble with these forums, it can be hard to convey the full scope of one's opinions to the same level that you can in an around the table debate. This topic is about meat healthy/meat not etc, not ethics - I said that was my main reason for not eating meat, you then asked me to explain, which I then said something to the effect that I wouldn't be able to do it justice.
Which scientific fact and which concept can't I grasp, the relatively simple one that plants are capable of feelings? It's hardly a new concept is it. I think I've probably had that impression since junior school, seems it's new to some.
I've worked as a maintenance electrician at a huge plant nursery with hothouses and I can tell you some of the plants were incredible - I can't remember what this one particular plant was called, but when touched, it would recoil, not like a V flytrap in any way. This although explained by some as just responses to stimuli, only re-enforced what I thought about the way some force runs through everything.
No, my argument isn't with meat eating per se, rather it's with PARTLY, as I said earlier in the thread, the ones that are disgusted and upset by abattoirs whist eating burgers. I'd like to hear the opinions of those sort of people, because you can't get into an ethical debate with some-one that eats meat because they love it, don't care where it's come from and really do not care about animal welfare - I actually have less problem with these people. In terms of raising animals compassionately etc, my main objection isn't just to the industrial animal cruelty, it's all animal cruelty. Don't think I'm dealing in facts am I. Opinions maybe?

When one embraces an ethical stance and tries to incorporate it into their life as best as they can, sure, you can then say "what about this area of concern or that area of concern, what are you doing about that?" but because one doesn't immediately, or sometimes ever, encompass all the different strands where ethics take you into their current ethical stance, doesn't mean that the stance they are currently taking should be given up on or thrown in their faces as proof that, because somehow, they don't incorporate ALL aspects of ethics (which is probably impossible) then they are obviously wrong and hypocritical. It's difficult. Maybe we should be striving for a less ethical world, where people try to pick holes in some-ones ethics with the aim of getting them to give up on that stance.

What your stance Eric? What's ethics do you embrace? Not sure that that's a particularly easy question is it.

reply to post by artistpoet

Yet let us not avoid the issue that it involves the taking of a life of a sentient being (note I am avoiding saying murder) I am speaking truth here not preaching. Most are removed from killing their food though many still do hunt and process their kills.

So when other animals do it for the exact same reason is it murder? Should lions prides be ashamed when food is brought to them by the head of the pride because they were removed from the kill? I have skinned an animal, cleaned it, butchered, prepared and eaten it. By the time I was at the step of eating it it was no different than having bought it from the market. I think you are exaggerating how detached we are from our food. Actually I think you people that want to be vegans are the ones that are severely detached and that is why you avoid it.You think it's weird people can eat meat not knowing what it goes through. In fact it's strange that you can't. Buck up.. there are a lot worse things in the world than animals dying to feed people.

Originally posted by GogoVicMorrow
reply to post by artistpoet

 

Yet let us not avoid the issue that it involves the taking of a life of a sentient being (note I am avoiding saying murder) I am speaking truth here not preaching. Most are removed from killing their food though many still do hunt and process their kills.

So when other animals do it for the exact same reason is it murder? Should lions prides be ashamed when food is brought to them by the head of the pride because they were removed from the kill? I have skinned an animal, cleaned it, butchered, prepared and eaten it. By the time I was at the step of eating it it was no different than having bought it from the market. I think you are exaggerating how detached we are from our food. Actually I think you people that want to be vegans are the ones that are severely detached and that is why you avoid it.You think it's weird people can eat meat not knowing what it goes through. In fact it's strange that you can't. Buck up.. there are a lot worse things in the world than animals dying to feed people.

OK so not murder but premeditated killing - I do it too with plants and fish.
Most people do not rear or grow their own food and some do such as you.
I plant seeds and nurture them and see the whole process from seed to fully grown plant and let some flower and go to seed for next years planting..
Some people do not and buy a can of this or a packet of that and do not see the process of how their food is arrived at - simply the end product.
I am not a Vegan by the way nor a vegetarian - I choose to not eat animal flesh or dairy products or eggs.
As I have said it is everyones choice what they wish to eat yet it is true that many never think of of how the food arrives on their plate.

reply to post by GogoVicMorrow

I think you are exaggerating how detached we are from our food. Actually I think you people that want to be vegans are the ones that are severely detached and that is why you avoid it.You think it's weird people can eat meat not knowing what it goes through. In fact it's strange that you can't. Buck up.. there are a lot worse things in the world than animals dying to feed people.

I hope you don't mind if I butt in here..

You may well have slaughtered your own meat, 95% (I'm just trying to make a point. That is not a real statistic) of people who do eat meat haven't. Most people who eat beef have never even touched a cow. Many children now days don't even know that meat comes from animals! Like that advert of the kid saying "If god didn't want us to eat meat then why did he create steak." People think it's hilarious in the mean time, all you have is an uneducated child...

Talk about being 'detached', don't you think there is a reason why meat from a cow or a bull is called "beef",from a sheep, "lamb" or from a pig "pork"? But chicken stays chicken and fish stays fish...
I think it would have more of an emotional impact on people standing in the meat section looking at packets saying " Cow steak, or fillet of calf (aka, veal).

Just saying... stop throwing stones at us vegetarians/vegans. We did nothing to you. We are definitely not 'detached' in regards to where our food comes from..

reply to post by Tripple_Helix


God didn't create steak, man created steak by thousands of years of selective breeding. Same with pigs and sheep. We have created animals that did not occur naturally on this planet.

I cannot actually believe this thread has got this far. And that really is not meant as a criticism of the OP - the OP simply presented data with a provocative title to the thread.

People eat meat or don't, same for veg, etc. People drink, smoke or whatever. Fine, we are all responsible for our own choices. I am not interested in ethical reasons not to eat meat. It tastes good and i like it, ergo that is enough reason for me. Others may think differently - fine, that is their choice and doesn't impact upon me one way or the other.

reply to post by toochaos4u


toochaos...

May I suggest that your friend supplement her diet with digestive enzymes? Nuts and seeds are difficult to digest, and a raw food digestive enzyme supplement can work wonders.
Also... hempseeds are very high in protein and have omegas that could really help your friend.
And lastly... many vegetarians are low in vitamin B-12. Just taking a B-12 supplement could really help her to feel better.

Originally posted by Icecream117
I don't think anyone can survive just on meat or just on vegetables. I think everyone has to find balance in what they eat. I do believe that the way animals are raised for meat is really unnatural and disgusting. People should try to find healthier and more humane ways of getting meat.

I agree, and Ice Cream might very well balance our diets as much as anything! lol, seriously...this thread seems to be more about "health" when it comes to eating meat more than the "moral" implications of eating meat.

There's sooo many factors involved as others have pointed out, genes, blood types, portions, frequency it's eaten, etc. that I can't conclude that moderate amounts of meat are unhealthy.

Has anyone ever noticed that our bodies seem to "tell" us what we need? I really noticed this alot when I was pregnant, and seemed my "cravings" changed at different stages of pregnancy. At first all I wanted was salads and veggies, then further on would "crave" red meat and fish, toward the end I wanted a lot of carbs, gave birth to healthy baby girl

I have limited knowledge about nutrition, but I would definetly be curious to find out more about why somedays I absolutely must have brussel sprouts!?