The Vetting - Holder 1995: We Must 'Brainwash' People on Guns

Originally posted by VoteJillSteinKatSwift2012
How about a portion of the 99% movement air TV ads airing people to accept universal federal government funded health care as a way to "encourage" people to be healthy and to vote for Jill Stein and Kat Swift and to remind people of how much of a failure the Obama Administration really is since Obama hasn't provided universal federal government funded health care?

edit on 19-3-2012 by VoteJillSteinKatSwift2012 because: I want to post additional info.

I'm with ya, baby! Let's go ahead and burn this country to the ground with those two bozos and some universal government funded health care! After we get it burned down and destroyed, we can see what rises out of the ashes.

I bet it won't be a bunch if whiners looking for someone else to do the hard work of saving them.

reply to post by nenothtu


It was rather easy to see through the deception wasn't it? All it took was two clicks of the mouse. It really makes me wonder if the people that want to ban guns are lazy or hateful. Are people just blindly following what they heard someone tell them about firearms or are they afraid of personal responsibility. I would rather that then the alternative that they just think they are better then other people and they should be able to tell them what to do.

The firearm changed the world. It is a tool and a piece of technology. Its not our governments job to decide what knowledge we are allowed to posses and use. What comes next? No more private possession of welding equipment because it may start a fire? No radios because we might broadcast copyrighted content? Its such a flawed position to take unless your motive is control.

Originally posted by freethinker123

I agree with you. I really believe its high time that action is taken on this issue. I find it really sad that nobody from the gun supporting camp has the courage to come forward with any solutions. In a responsible, functioning democracy (or Republic or however they want to describe the US) members of a group would look for solutions ie by isolating a tiny minority of gun owners, making it harder for those irresponsible, crazy or criminal to get hold of legal weapons.

How would you then keep them from getting hold of illegal weapons - or shifting their weapon of choice to something else, like fertilizer or vaseline? (Yes, you can make vaseline explode, and no, I'm not going to tell you how).

What about gasoline? Lighter fluid? ball peen hammers?

reply to post by freethinker123


Great rebuttal friend! This statement resonated with me...

I find it really sad that nobody from the gun supporting camp has the courage to come forward with any solutions

Even though I'm a proud supporter of the 2nd amendment, I feel as if the industry and politicians have neglected the importance of maintaining the right to safely and effectively bear arms, at the expense. As if all the importance has been placed on just the right to bear arms, and that How or Why is unimportant. As a country with a liberal firearms culture, and by liberal I mean that we are allowed to possess firearms as private citizens, we have been lackadaisical with maintaining that freedom. Neither our citizens or politicians have done our "preventative maintenance" when it comes to the 2nd amendment.

reply to post by safetyblack


They're not lazy or hateful, they're fearful. There are people with an agenda who prey on that fear, increase it, and motivate the fearful to sally forth and regurgitate what they were fed. It's not really "mindless", it is more focused and intensified fear. They put blinders on these fearful people in an attempt to prevent them from seeing the bigger picture - that violence can happen any time, any place, with any implement (or none), and the only common factor is the person perpetrating the violence. It makes more sense to me to deal with violent people if you want to reduce the violence, rather than trying to disarm them - which can NEVER be done, no matter what you ban, which regulates ALL, the violent and non-violent alike.

They expect to extract the price for the sins of the few from the uninvolved many, and make us ALL pay.

They would have to outlaw everything, including clothes, and somehow keep people from ever getting out into the outdoors. You can kill a man with a belt, a bootlace, or a ball-point pen. People killed each other with rocks and pointy sticks for thousands of years before the advent of the firearm. Their problem is not with killing and violence per se, they just don't like the efficiency.

If they were against violence and killing, THAT is where their focus would be, not on guns, which after all are nothing more than high tech, high efficiency rocks.

Rocks don't kill cave men, cave men do.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by freethinker123

I agree with you. I really believe its high time that action is taken on this issue. I find it really sad that nobody from the gun supporting camp has the courage to come forward with any solutions. In a responsible, functioning democracy (or Republic or however they want to describe the US) members of a group would look for solutions ie by isolating a tiny minority of gun owners, making it harder for those irresponsible, crazy or criminal to get hold of legal weapons.

How would you then keep them from getting hold of illegal weapons - or shifting their weapon of choice to something else, like fertilizer or vaseline? (Yes, you can make vaseline explode, and no, I'm not going to tell you how).

What about gasoline? Lighter fluid? ball peen hammers?

I have read through your previous posts to help me determine the seriousness of the questions you posed in this post. Perhaps "seriousness" is not the most accurate word. Are you suggesting we address these items because they have been implicated in crimes? Are they rhetorical questions? (There are regulations on fertilizers so that has been addressed)

What about gasoline? Lighter fluid? ball peen hammers?

How would you then keep them from getting hold of illegal weapons

The simple answer is...you don't...you can't. You can minimize it, but as long as there is a demand, there will always be a supply, legitimately or otherwise.

reply to post by xuenchen
OK, so since when is a good idea like getting kids to think guns are uncool, some kind of conspiracy??? I think guns are uncool. They are weapons. They KILL people. That's not cool. It might be a necessity and your right to own one might be just that, a right (which also bears a GREAT and heavy RESPONSIBILITY) But it is not COOL. And the Attorney Holder was right, you got to brainwash these kids from the brainwashing the media and the NRA have done previously. That means yes, making guns seem uncool. Of course it will NEVER happen because so many BAD people want to sell guns to kids so they can do BAD things. It's all about the Benjamins. So what the heck is this doing on ATS?

reply to post by xuenchen


Guns don't kill people, people kill people and that is why the government should "Ban People". Seriously though if guns were outlawed the only ones that would have guns would be cops and criminals.

Thank you for sharing this and exposing yet another obama failure.

Originally posted by Cosmic911

I have read through your previous posts to help me determine the seriousness of the questions you posed in this post. Perhaps "seriousness" is not the most accurate word. Are you suggesting we address these items because they have been implicated in crimes? Are they rhetorical questions?

Rhetorical. The objective is to highlight the fallacy of focusing on the implement rather than the individual putting it to bad use. banning an object does not ban the behavior - it just forces the actors to switch gears to another object. They just keep on being violent.

(There are regulations on fertilizers so that has been addressed)

It can be had in pallets of 1100 pounds each, all day long. How many do you want? Not the cheap stuff, either - 33% prilled ammonium nitrate, weapons grade. Regulations are useless as preventive measures. they're just there to make people think something is being done. Smoke and mirrors.

What about gasoline? Lighter fluid? ball peen hammers?

How would you then keep them from getting hold of illegal weapons

The simple answer is...you don't...you can't. You can minimize it, but as long as there is a demand, there will always be a supply, legitimately or otherwise.

That's my point exactly. It's useless to address the potential weapons - the individuals using them are the proper place to address concerns.

An old saying where I come from is "locks are for honest people". Likewise with regulations - they only work against people who choose to obey them, which persons are unlikely to go on killing sprees in the first place.

Originally posted by whisperindave
reply to post by xuenchen

 

OK, so since when is a good idea like getting kids to think guns are uncool, some kind of conspiracy??? I think guns are uncool. They are weapons. They KILL people. That's not cool. It might be a necessity and your right to own one might be just that, a right (which also bears a GREAT and heavy RESPONSIBILITY) But it is not COOL. And the Attorney Holder was right, you got to brainwash these kids from the brainwashing the media and the NRA have done previously. That means yes, making guns seem uncool. Of course it will NEVER happen because so many BAD people want to sell guns to kids so they can do BAD things. It's all about the Benjamins. So what the heck is this doing on ATS?

You should check out some other threads about firearms and survival, like living in Alaska and other remote regions. Having a firearm should be a requirement in some of these parts of the country. Now, this is obviously just one example and not the majority, but it demonstrates the issue is not as black and white as you would like to believe. That's a little too arrogant, ignorant, and naive. (not calling you these things, just the limited perspective on firearms as bad things). The point here is firearms are not just BAD things used by BAD people. They are tools as well as weapons. Living in a part of the country where you might encounter a wolf or bear when you are putting out your Monday night trash necessitates having something other than your good looks to just survive the day.

You are correct in that their use carries a Great and Heavy Responsibility. If only more people who owned firearms felt this way there would be far less Preventable and senseless deaths each year. The problem with firearms is people with firearms. We don't need anti-gun people out there protesting us, the stupidity of gun owners never ceases to amaze me. But like most things that are issues in this country, it all starts in the home. Crap parents raise stupid kids and invariably they ruin things for the rest of us. And really, guns don't kill people, people kill people. We can apply the same arguments to alcohol or driving. We don't ban driving because people are killing themselves and others everyday, right? There are far more than deaths related to automobile crashes than firearms. The same is true of alcohol. We don't ban it; we limit its use. We put restrictions on it. We mitigate the risk best we can. We educate.

And the Attorney Holder was right, you got to brainwash these kids from the brainwashing the media and the NRA have done previously

I couldn't disagree more with this idea of "brainwashing" kids. Call it whatever you want but its lying and presenting an inaccurate truth to impressionable kids. We want kids who can critically think when they need to; make good decisions in life. We'll never achieve this by brainwashing them. But educating them about the dangers of firearms is the best idea. Taking kids to a county medical examiner's office is one way of educating them. Present the dangers to them in a concrete and adult medium is the only way to give them the tools to think critically to make good decisions. Kids play with guns because they seem "cool" to them. They are a mystery to them. They are interesting to them. But if you educate your child about the firearm and make it less of a mystery it becomes like everything else in the mind of teenager; here and gone in 60 seconds. Take away the mystery. Answer the questions. Get them to respect the weapon. Put the fear of God into them. Make them respect it, understand it, allow them to conquer the challenge that a gun represents.

As a parent I would never brainwash my child. I present facts to him that he can understand and incorporate into his life. And even though I have a 6 year old that can field strip an M-16 in less than two minutes, it doesn't negate the fact that he's still only six years old. The responsibility is on me to protect him from that weapon and make sure he never has access to it. But this is such a senseless argument since parents don't even parent anymore. Currently I'm teaching secondary education and it never ceases to amaze me how much parenting I do in class for my students in the absence of their parents. I don't want throw out the baby with the bath water so I'll digress for now...lol...phew! Great post xuenchen, really got me thinking! Star for you!

reply to post by nenothtu


Great post! I do agree.

An old saying where I come from is "locks are for honest people". Likewise with regulations - they only work against people who choose to obey them, which persons are unlikely to go on killing sprees in the first place.

That's what we say of gun control laws...its almost as if the politicians who make these laws don't realize this. I call this "Feel-Good Legislation." We have a lot of senseless and stupid feel-good legislation in New York State. It seems our politicians have perfected it.

Originally posted by whisperindave
I think guns are uncool. They are weapons. They KILL people. That's not cool.

Guns are not cool. they are most usually room temperature, because they are inanimate object. Guns do not kill people. To prove my point, I have just laid a pistol on my coffee table. I want you to order it to kill me. Right now. Go ahead, give it a direct order to kill me. Intimidate it if you have to. I'll wait and see what it does.

Still waiting. It appears to just be laying there.

It might be a necessity and your right to own one might be just that, a right (which also bears a GREAT and heavy RESPONSIBILITY) But it is not COOL. And the Attorney Holder was right, you got to brainwash these kids from the brainwashing the media and the NRA have done previously.

1) Brainwashing ANYONE is a very bad idea - it can eventually be turned against YOU.

2) Brainwashing kids is despicable. they depend on us for answers and education, not brainwashing.

3) I'm not a big fan of the NRA. They are too willing to sell YOUR rights out in order to try to preserve just a little bit of theirs. I've never joined them, and never will, nor will I ever give them any money to sell me out. Even so, they do NOT brainwash kids. Never have. Educating them in how not to shoot each other, accidentally or otherwise, is not brainwashing.

That means yes, making guns seem uncool. Of course it will NEVER happen because so many BAD people want to sell guns to kids so they can do BAD things. It's all about the Benjamins. So what the heck is this doing on ATS?

have you lost your mind? Why are you allowing bad people to sell guns to your kids? Why do you not explain to your kids that doing bad things is a bad idea, and will eventually lead to their own downfall? Why are you giving your kids the Benjamins to support these bad people in the first place? it seems you have several problems to address long before you get to guns. Start out with "bad people"...

Address those problems, and guns will not be an issue at all, any more than shovel handles are an issue.

Originally posted by Aliensdoexist
reply to post by xuenchen

 

Guns don't kill people, people kill people and that is why the government should "Ban People". Seriously though if guns were outlawed the only ones that would have guns would be cops and criminals.

And everyone else would be at the mercy of those two. Not a pleasant proposition.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by freethinker123

Not just a maybe though is it? The fact is that the vast majority of guns used in this type of crime are obtained legally.

Which "type of crime"? I'd have to take issue with the notion that legally obtained firearms are used more often in crimes than illegally obtained ones.

What you mean to say is that you wouldn't change your mind even if evidence contradicted your opinion isn't it?

No, what I meant to say was what I said, and furthermore no one has presented any such contradictory evidence, nor have I presented any "evidence". Opinion is not evidence. I'm willing to entertain the evidence, but all actual evidence presented in the thread so far has been in favor of firearms, and more specifically it pointed out and broke down, by the numbers, how vanishingly less likely one is to be involved in an "accidental shooting" than to emply a frirearm in genuine defense.

A few points, all anecdotal or subjective: While an "accidental shooting" is not a crime I believe there is no such thing as an "accidental shooting": Those are more properly called "negligent discharges", because they are the result of negligence with an intentionally pulled trigger. Triggers do not, and never have, pulled themselves.

Be honest, even if murder rates from gun shooting through use of legally procured weapons by said crazies went up by 1000% it wouldn't bother you, or would it?

It would bother me, but not in the way that you think, It would bother me that so many people willingly walked to slaughter rather than defend themselves. On the other hand, Darwin takes over in such circumstances. The crazies live on to breed more, and the suicidal people with the victim mentality contribute no further genes to the pool. Then you get a society which we are dangerously on the verge of - the crazies multiply to the point that they run the show, and of course the first thing they want to do is disarm the rest - to make of us all victims and to make their job easier and safer, without the possibility of getting shot themselves.

How on earth can your children be armed if they are at school when some crazed teenager who got the weapon from his uncle's drawer decides to take his rage out against his old school?

They have been taught to think, to react, and to employ strategy against the miscreant. Those are PRIMARY weapons. Secondarily, they have been taught to use a wide variety of implements in combination with those strategies to maximize impact. They have been taught not to freeze like a deer in the headlights and just wait to see if the miscreant is really going to shoot. he IS. Do something about that, don't just wait for the fire plume.

Then, after the dust settled, that uncle better hope the cops find him before I do. I have no qualms about thinning crazies and criminally negligent people from the gene pool.

I don't know where you live but in the US school shootings are higher than any other country in the world.

I live in the US. Our redwood trees are higher than in any other country in the world, too. That doesn't mean we have any redwoods in my area, either.

And there is no correlation between the availability of weapons on the legal marketplace and school shootings?

No, none whatsoever. Availability to miscreants attributes to other factors than "the marketplace". In your example above it's criminal negligence - firearms must be stored by law in a safe manner around here, and failure to do so is a criminal matter. Criminals will arm themselves some how, whether you make it illegal or not. They will either go to alternate weapons, or create their own underground marketplace, or both. The problem is not the implements, it is the criminals who use them.

'This type of crime' means the type of crime we have been discussing ie school shootings or instances of some crazy going on the rampage. You can take issue with it, but the fact (go check if you don't believe me) is that the majority of these crimes are comitted with legal weapons and not weapons obtained 'under the counter' or through criminal connections etc.

Yes, agree that you are willing to entertain yourself with the evidence, but you are unwilling to admit that no evidence would change your opinion anyway. It matters not a jot what evidence has been presented in this thread, we are not judges in a court of law, what matters is the existing evidence in the public realm.

And hold back with the amateur dalliances into Darwinism will you? Its commonly agreed by psychologists that around 80% of behaviour is environmental and 20% is hereditry. I doubt very much that the crazies will breed crazy children. And you call those that don't wish to carry suicidal?
Didn't understand what you bit about training your kids had to do with my question though.

Originally posted by Cosmic911

I couldn't disagree more with this idea of "brainwashing" kids. Call it whatever you want but its lying and presenting an inaccurate truth to impressionable kids. We want kids who can critically think when they need to; make good decisions in life. We'll never achieve this by brainwashing them. But educating them about the dangers of firearms is the best idea. Taking kids to a county medical examiner's office is one way of educating them. Present the dangers to them in a concrete and adult medium is the only way to give them the tools to think critically to make good decisions. Kids play with guns because they seem "cool" to them. They are a mystery to them. They are interesting to them. But if you educate your child about the firearm and make it less of a mystery it becomes like everything else in the mind of teenager; here and gone in 60 seconds. Take away the mystery. Answer the questions. Get them to respect the weapon. Put the fear of God into them. Make them respect it, understand it, allow them to conquer the challenge that a gun represents.

When my kids were little, I gathered up a bunch of water melons and milk jugs filled with water and set them out. Took the kids out there to watch, and shot the crap out of said items. When the hydrostatic shock from a bullet moving 3000 feet per second hits that much water, the results are pretty spectacular.

"That's AWESOME, dad!" the kids said.

"I'll show you awesome." says I. "Pick one - milk jug, water melon, I don't care which, and put it back together just like it was before I shot it."

"That's crazy! You can't put a mess like that back together!" they replied.

"Exactly my point. What you do in an instant with one of these is forever. No respawns, no do-overs. It's FOREVER. Just one little 'accident', one instant of inattention, one little fit of uncontrolled anger, and your entire life changes forever, and stays changed. You live with it for the rest of your days, and someone else doesn't."

I've NEVER had a problem with my kids and guns since then.

Originally posted by Cosmic911
reply to post by nenothtu

 

Great post! I do agree.

An old saying where I come from is "locks are for honest people". Likewise with regulations - they only work against people who choose to obey them, which persons are unlikely to go on killing sprees in the first place.

That's what we say of gun control laws...its almost as if the politicians who make these laws don't realize this. I call this "Feel-Good Legislation." We have a lot of senseless and stupid feel-good legislation in New York State. It seems our politicians have perfected it.

It's not just New York, it's a nationwide plague. They regulate and regulate, and the only people who pay attention to it never needed to be regulated in the first place.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by freethinker123

I agree with you. I really believe its high time that action is taken on this issue. I find it really sad that nobody from the gun supporting camp has the courage to come forward with any solutions. In a responsible, functioning democracy (or Republic or however they want to describe the US) members of a group would look for solutions ie by isolating a tiny minority of gun owners, making it harder for those irresponsible, crazy or criminal to get hold of legal weapons.

How would you then keep them from getting hold of illegal weapons - or shifting their weapon of choice to something else, like fertilizer or vaseline? (Yes, you can make vaseline explode, and no, I'm not going to tell you how).

OK this question will allow me to ask you a question in turn so I can test your honesty and to see how clued up you are. Do you agree with me that the argument used by some of those that agree with you is nonsense - ie that those who carry out these shootings would use knives instead

Before you agree with them, think about the profiles of some of these that have carried out school shootings. I'm willing to bet that some of those people would not have carried out those crimes at all. Its certainly not the same stabbing somebody to death as it is to execute them. Nor is it half as easy, as there is every chance somebody will succeed in disarming the perpetrator. Finally, once you have a plan and a gun, thats it, theres no going back. A knife, or other smaller weapon can mean an opportunity to retreat at the last moment with nobody knowing what was going to happen. But hell yeah, you can just tell me there is no evidence to suggest that. And I'll just tell you there is no evidence to the contrary...

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by Aliensdoexist
reply to post by xuenchen

 

Guns don't kill people, people kill people and that is why the government should "Ban People". Seriously though if guns were outlawed the only ones that would have guns would be cops and criminals.

And everyone else would be at the mercy of those two. Not a pleasant proposition.

And yet crime is higher in the US than it is in societies where firearms are banned.

Originally posted by freethinker123
'This type of crime' means the type of crime we have been discussing ie school shootings or instances of some crazy going on the rampage. You can take issue with it, but the fact (go check if you don't believe me) is that the majority of these crimes are comitted with legal weapons and not weapons obtained 'under the counter' or through criminal connections etc.

No school shooting has ever been accomplished with a legally obtained or held weapon. None. Ever. I checked on it. Your turn now. Find one for me. maybe I overlooked one. School me if you think I have.

Yes, agree that you are willing to entertain yourself with the evidence, but you are unwilling to admit that no evidence would change your opinion anyway. It matters not a jot what evidence has been presented in this thread, we are not judges in a court of law, what matters is the existing evidence in the public realm.

Yes, that is what matters, and none of it points to regulation ever helping a thing in regard to guns. You're right, it won't change my opinion, since my opinion is based on 50 years of examining the evidence available in the public realm which led me to that opinion to begin with.

And hold back with the amateur dalliances into Darwinism will you? Its commonly agreed by psychologists that around 80% of behaviour is environmental and 20% is hereditry. I doubt very much that the crazies will breed crazy children. And you call those that don't wish to carry suicidal?

"Commonly agreed"? Got a source for that? Most of the psychologists I know are nearly willing to come to blows over the "nature vs. nurture" debate. They don't seem to commonly agree on much of anything. Yes, I know several - I was married to one for several years.

Yup, suicidal. If you go to places and get yourself into situations where you can expect to be assaulted, and take no precautions, you are suicidal.

Didn't understand what you bit about training your kids had to do with my question though.

You asked how on Earth my kids could be armed, and I told you. Objects are not the only arms available, and often they are not even the most effective arms. They are tools - they only become arms when employed by an armed mind.