Future criminals "can be spotted at age of two"

Originally posted by VonDoomen

I cant even fathom how much time of mine, my classmates, my teachers, and tax payer dollars were ABSOLUTELY WASTED, because of 3-4 (same)kids who would cause some kind of incident every day because they didn't want to read a damn book. Ship them out and straighten them up.

They wouldn't jump through a hoop for teacher? They weren't picking on other kids, destroying school property, or stealing from lunch boxes? Such a shocking display of willful disobedience! I'm sure the teacher was justified spending as much time, all day if necessary, demonstrating to the rest of the class how their authority will not be undermined by a student defying a direct order. They obviously needed incarceration, discipline, and re-programming. Americans must be obedient and compliant! Those kids were obviously heading down the criminal path. Good thing they weren't gum chewers too.

Originally posted by marg6043
Incredible, people here have not clue what this is all about, this about starting what will be future trouble individuals at a young age to be treated with prescribe drugs to control behavior, doesn't anybody here remember anymore from where Ritalin came from? and what is use for, how about anti depressants, we already treating children in the US with prescribe drugs for social behavior, that includes anti depressants and anti anxiety the younger big pharma can get them in their pockets the better.

Wake up people this is been done already.

Remeber when Bush was trying to have the nation screened for behaviour problems in order to spot those that had mental problems? remember how we the people reacted to that moronic idea.

edit on 8-3-2012 by marg6043 because: (no reason given)

Sure behind every 'grand plan' like this are the financial interests who stand to gain pushing it, forced/coherced drugging is a real problem, it seems pretty barbaric to me, and I wonder how many Columbine wannabes have been the examples of magnified effects of problems made WORSE by SSRI misuse.

reply to post by silent thunder


seeing as many criminal complaints of minors are wiped off their record after a certain time, I highly doubt this is something that will go on their record for ever, if at all.

reply to post by Erongaricuaro


actually if you must know. All the kids I mentioned are now criminals and have been in an out of jail for drugs and stealing.

And lol, where do i mention jumping through a hoola-hoop? Now your just making up crap to try and give credence to your failing argument. If you read what you quoted by me, I said they refused to read books.
These kids would act out, throw hissy fits(scream), fling themselves on the floor and stomp their feet. They would refuse to stop, they would drag their feet when being removed from the class room. And yes, these were also the kids starting fights with people.
So yes, go ahead and defend that type of behavior. And I will defend the proper use of tax payer dollars. We're not paying teachers to play little mind games with uneducated kids. We're paying teachers to TEACH. The rest of the class, those of us who were eager to learn would of had a better environment, and those kids may have had a better chance at living a decent life. But no, go ahead and argue that ignorant uneducated selfish kids have better intentions than teachers......

and in contrast to you're arguement, are highly educated teachers and willing student supposed to be subjected to the authority of the lowest class of society? me thinks you didn't really think through your post

This has nothing to do with teachers being on power trips or americans being obedient and compliant. Its about every citizens OBLIGATION to become educated and be a productive member of society. Our society is one of rules and laws. Those rules and laws are for the benefit of society as a whole.

I think its hilarious, you are arguing for the right of vagrants to ruin an educational setting that a majority of people want and appreciate, especially at that age. One can only wonder what some of the more susceptible kids learned from these idiots and their actions.

If you want, I can start posting links to all of their various arrest reports?

Originally posted by VonDoomen
reply to post by silent thunder

 

seeing as many criminal complaints of minors are wiped off their record after a certain time, I highly doubt this is something that will go on their record for ever, if at all.

Mmm-hmmm. Meanwhile, Facebook makes a permanent record of everything you've ever written (as well as everything other people have written about you), and it is standard procedure now for prospecitve employers to use google to pull up tons of information on any individual. These days almost every company hiring people or university admitting students can find out, with very little effort, almost anything important about you. Many are even going beyond simple web serches and credit checks. When you apply to a school you have to submit a transcript that lists your educational history. You think this sort of thing won't effect kids's futures? Get real.

No offense and nothing personal, but I really have to wonder what would drive a person to argue in favor of doing this to two-year-olds.

Originally posted by silent thunder

Future criminals "can be spotted at age of two"

www.telegraph.co.uk

Children at risk of “going off the rails” and descending into a life of crime can be spotted at the age of two, the Government’s adviser on discipline has said.

(visit the link for the full news article)

And you thought racial profiling was bad... Now we'll have kids in lock up for the potiental crimes they may commit. Not even Orwell saw that level of Big Brother coming.

reply to post by silent thunder


no, just no.

[url=http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_a_minors_criminal_record_be_public_record]http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Can_a_minors_criminal_record_be_public_record[/ url]

However, and this is something that most people are not aware of, and are not told when juvenile proceedings are in progress. (I'm assuming this is in the U.S.) Although juvenile charges are said to be taken off the record either at age 18 or are said to not made public at all, this only applies to public record. So the average person in neither public, nor private companies, corporations, or not-for profit organizations when later in life looking for a job, can look up the charges or convictions (unless tried as an adult).

Secondly, this isnt even a criminal issue. So i fail to see why people think this would be on someones criminal record. Also, this is an attempt at helping people become a productive member of society instead of a recidivist. Why would they be trying to help them only to shoot them down 20 years later? People can change over time, and i think everyone in society recognizes that.

reply to post by Lasr1oftheJedi


nope. nowhere does it say that. It says give them special attention to help them integrate as a peaceful productive member of society. Read the article instead of just the OP's largely biased title and cherry picked quote.

reply to post by silent thunder


did anyone here actually read the article? it seems everyone has just been suckered in by the OP's cherry picked quote. You know you could of put more of the article in your leading post, why didnt you?????????

Is it because it would have made your juvenile hall / eugenics theory harder to swallow?

It was also appropriate for some five and six year-olds with the most serious difficulties to spend some time at institutes for the most unruly pupils

So for everyone who is against this. I have a question for you.

Do you want your extremely young child to be placed in the same class with other kids who have shown "aggressive tendencies" at such a young age?

I'll give you my answer: NO
But if you think thats safe for your kids then you're obviously not responsible enough to be a parent and are negligent.

Originally posted by Domo1
What a sensationalist title and OP. I see nothing wrong with identifying children at risk by their behavior and then placing them into an environment capable of dealing with the issues. Seems to give more protection to the children that need extra help, while minimizing risks to others.

Um....these are toddlers. Toddlers develop differently and express themselves wildly at times. For example, their nerves and input systems vary enormously in individuals, and in development, ie. boys brains develop much slower. AND, they are prone to throwing things, hitting, and having full fledge temper tantrums, so out of control that they terrify even the child. AND THIS IS NORMAL CHILD DEVELOPMENT. Some are mild and many are not, and of those ones, most grow up NORMAL.

Take some child psychology or better yet, do some stints in preschool.

I have 5 boys and have babysit many more.

This is absolute BUNK.

reply to post by VonDoomen


So we should offer rehabilition to those who fit a profile of a criminal by the actions of a toddler? I did take it to the extreme, but that hardly merits a suggestion that I lacked information. I think it's a dangerous precident to think a child of 2 needs re-education, or special programs simply for behavior. It's as bad as when kids age 3 are handed riddlin (mispelt, but you know to what I refer.), for being hyperactive. Hyperactive? They're 3, not 43. They're suppose to be hyperactive. 2 year olds are suppose to be contancerious. That's how humans grow and learn during those ages. To place a negetive lable on them just because of some unseemly behavior that can carry a stigma for the rest of their lives is as atrocious as my spelling. More so maybe!

Parenting 101:

Some general milestones:

www.parentscanada.com...

Social - Emotional Skills
TextIn some ways, toddlers are like adolescents - going through the intense emotions of learning to be and act on their own, asserting themselves and using their own judgment in new situations. When your child ventures away from you, like walking to the other end of the room, it is an experience similar to a long trip for a grown-up.

Toddlers are delighted - and scared - at the same time. They try to escape you, but will still look back to be sure you're there. They want to test their own will and go contrary to your wishes. They have intense fits of frustration when obstacles stand in their way

pediatrics.about.com...

To help you cope with this normal stage in your child's development, you should always remember that your child isn't trying to be defiant or rebellious on purpose. He is just trying to express his growing independence and doesn't have the language skills to easily express his needs. This can also be the reason why your toddler frequently gets frustrated and resorts to hitting, biting, and temper tantrums when he doesn't get his way.

By learning more about this normal stage in your child's development, it can make it easier to get through it and make sure that you aren't contributing to more battles than are necessary.

kidshealth.org...

Why Kids Have Tantrums

Temper tantrums range from whining and crying to screaming, kicking, hitting, and breath holding. They're equally common in boys and girls and usually occur between the ages of 1 to 3.

Kids' temperaments vary dramatically — so some kids may experience regular tantrums, whereas others have them rarely. They're a normal part of development and don't have to be seen as something negative. Unlike adults, kids don't have the same inhibitions or control.

Oh, and the advice they give, works with some.

What you do with a 2 year old, even 3 or 4, and yes 1-3 is just an estimate, is not call the police, not handcuff or taser, not put them in some special training, but you time them out in a safe place, or hold them, restrain them, and let them wear your nerves out and their lungs out, and then hug and love them.

Originally posted by VonDoomen
reply to post by silent thunder

 

did anyone here actually read the article? it seems everyone has just been suckered in by the OP's cherry picked quote. You know you could of put more of the article in your leading post, why didnt you?????????

Is it because it would have made your juvenile hall / eugenics theory harder to swallow?

Did you read it?

It specifically mentions "institutes for the most unruly pupils." True, they are talking about 5 or 6 year olds, not 2 year olds. Not that that's any better, in my humble opinion. But if are spotting kids at age 2 and considering them for this kind of system, as I wrote, it becomes a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy.

reply to post by Lasr1oftheJedi


Im not going to discuss the riddlin issue, as thats a different topic and i feel different on that.

But heres the kicker. I was a good kid? Im not a violent person? I think teachers over time can tell the difference between the occasional accident, and the kids I mentioned who were continually causing problems every day at a very young age.

so for clarifiation. A toddler is: A young child who is just beginning to walk. Toddlers dont go to school. 2 year olds dont go even go to school. Kindergarten/pre-k starts at 4 at least where I am from.

for the youngest kids it is-
"He said showing the worst-behaved children how to socialise and giving them proper boundaries could prevent problems escalating." Thats NOT being DRUGGED. Thats NOT being sent to some juvie hall. That is getting extra attention to learn how to play nice. Is that really a bad idea? Solve the problem at this age when its cheaper, or go ahead and pay for more expensive incarceration at a later date.

for older kids 5-6-
It was also appropriate for some five and six year-olds with the most serious difficulties to spend some time at institutes for the most unruly pupils, he suggested.

again, for the most serious cases in 1st graders.

like i said, start solving the problem when we start to notice it. Its lot cheaper this way than putting them through the criminal justice system which is basically inneffective at healing people and expensive.

reply to post by silent thunder


I highly doubt they are telling the kids they are criminals. especially when no crime was committed or charged.
For a crime to occur you would need to prove actus reus and mens rea, which is impossible for a child at that age. And which is why we treat juvenille offenders different from adult offenders.

But hey, if you want YOUR kids to go to school with the worst of them go ahead.

I wouldn't. I would want a positive environment for them. From own personal experience, this type of system would have been better for a large majority of kid who are actually excited and eager to learn at that age.

Explain to me why a majority of eager kids should have their time wasted and be hurt by a minority of miscreants.

reply to post by Unity_99


and you miss the point. children aged 1-3 are not in school, atleast where I am from. they may be in nurseries. But this article only argues for "He said showing the worst-behaved children how to socialise and giving them proper boundaries could prevent problems escalating". whats wrong with teaching kids how to socialise and not to hit each other? thats another word for sharing basically. Did no one ever teach you about sharing? Nothing wrong with that.

The more serious part of this program is for kids 5-6 year olds. So what you quoted and what we are talking about are two different things for this age group. "It was also appropriate for some five and six year-olds with the most serious difficulties to spend some time at institutes for the most unruly pupils,"

reply to post by silent thunder


How is it self-fufilling. They are not going to call these kids criminals, even to their faces. You cant call someone a criminal if they havent committed a crime. And since kids do not have actus reus or mens rea, there is no crime. Which is why juveniles are treated differently than adults in our CJ system.

Although Genetics does play a Major Part in anyones development...with the possible exceptions of Children with a Mental Genetic Psychosis....there are no Bad kids just bad Parents and Teachers. I used to teach Survival....first to Kids...then to Highly Trained Men.

When I taught to kids...and some of these kids were at a Camp Deep in the Woods...and I was one of the Survival Instructors as well as Swimming Teachers and staff that taught a program of how to survive in water after your boat sank...self floatation methods...etc....and these kids were COURT ORDERED TO ATTEND...as they were repeat Juvenile Offenders...I had my share of some Kids who thought they were TOUGH and one even threatened to slit my throat.

I told the Kid...to take out the knife he was flashing...which he was not supposed to have but someone didn't do their job...and if he could cut me on any part of my body....I would leave him alone for the time he was there...but if I could take it away from him...he would do exactly what I said...and be at the Swimming Dock the next morning early...with some other kids he had obviously spent some time in a Juvy Hall chering him on...he got up and tried to put on a show....this didn't last long as he quickly came to the realization....I wasn't kidding around....so he stopped the mouthing off and to save face said...."I want to Learn how to swim anyways."

By the end of his time there he was swimming...as he didn't know how to swim and I taught him....He eventually joinded a branch of the U.S. Military and I have seen him since doing very well. RESPECT is EARNED and is not something that a kid who has experienced pain and disapointment his entire life....will just give. He Will give respect to those he considers worthy of it...that is the problem with TEACHERS in general today....they DEMAND RESPECT....but do little to EARN IT! This does not mean they have to go to the extreme I did and if it was not for the fact I was and still am a Highly Trained Individual...I would not gamble with my life...I KNEW WHAT I WAS DOING...but the same thing can be done in a class room to get a kids interest...because...once you have their interest...and they learn something they can apply...you will earn their respect.

This is also why I Bitch about teaching in memorization form without a clue of why or what is the purpose and what and how it can be applied for real world use. Sort of like memorizing a Math theorum without a clue to what you can use it for. Memorizing a Theorum so you will know how long a piece of wood beaming will be needed and how many...to build a bridge over a stream at a Camp....plus Stress Vectors and what good is TRIG or Algebra to help BUILD SOMETHING! You do this...and I have with a bunch of kids who were said to not have a 3rd Grade Aptitude....and they obtain PRIDE, CONFIDENCE...and are EAGER TO LEARN MORE!
Split Infinity

reply to post by Lasr1oftheJedi

humans also grow and learn from adults and teachers. A child will not properly raise itself. Thats just laughable.