The Satan Story?

I never really understood the story of Satan.

Where did Satan get the materials/ideas to form the first lie?
Someone couldn't build a house with first having materials. Someone can't come up with a new math equation or science theory without first having knowledge to build off of. The concept of a lie would of had to have already existed by the creator of all things.

Why is a lie bad?
When Satan supposedly said the first lie, god would of had to known what a lie was and what it meant. So in heaven when everything was perfect god had already created concepts of lies, judgment, evil. Wouldn't god have shown Satan extra love if he saw him feeling down or feeling a lack of love? If god created a lie, and it existed within him, he would of had to transfer that concept to Satan somehow. Either through words or some kind of communication. How can a lie be bad if it came from god?

Wouldn't the actions of Satan be understandable?
It seems that "god" would have to hide part of his love to create a vacuum for fear(evil) to exist. In pure love there is no fear. Do you think a being/person would chose fear over love if they felt they had a choice? Satan would of lied because he thought it would bring him what he thought he lacked. If he didn't know what he lacked and didn't know how to fill the void then really mean he didn't know what he was doing in terms of good and bad.


The story really doesn't make sense, considering also that most people can easily forgive others for lying, does that make us more powerful then "god?"

If you know more about this story then please enlighten me as I would like to see another side of this story that makes sense.

reply to post by Ralphy
We may have to go more in-depth on it some other time, but I think the common understanding of Satan bears further review.

It's really only in a few verses of the epistles and the book of Revelation that Satan becomes the prince of all evil and antithesis of god - until then, throughout the vast majority of the bible, he basically serves role as an accepted attendant of god functioning as his prosecuting attorney, testing men's faith and loyalty to god by inducements and temptation. In the book Job, for example, he attends what is basically a heavenly board meeting with open arms, and speaks otherwise directly to Christ and I believe the archangel Michael at various times in history.

I definitely haven't put the thought or research into this matter that I really need to, but ultimately, yes, ALL things have their basis in the creator, as even the bible admits - here's an article to start you out, although there are also other angles on the matter to think about - Did God Create Evil?

Take care.

Lol i thought of these topics many years ago now, which eventually lead me to this book. The Urantia book, a very interesting read. The following has been taking from the Urantia book. Hope this helps, Urantia is the celestial name for earth.

The Urantia Book Paper 53 The Lucifer Rebellion (601.1) 53:0.1 LUCIFER was a brilliant primary Lanonandek Son of Nebadon. He had experienced service in many systems, had been a high counselor of his group, and was distinguished for wisdom, sagacity, and efficiency. Lucifer was number 37 of his order, and when commissioned by the Melchizedeks, he was designated as one of the one hundred most able and brilliant personalities in more than seven hundred thousand of his kind. From such a magnificent beginning, through evil and error, he embraced sin and now is numbered as one of three System Sovereigns in Nebadon who have succumbed to the urge of self and surrendered to the sophistry of spurious personal liberty — rejection of universe allegiance and disregard of fraternal obligations, blindness to cosmic relationships.

(601.2) 53:0.2 In the universe of Nebadon, the domain of Christ Michael, there are ten thousand systems of inhabited worlds. In all the history of Lanonandek Sons, in all their work throughout these thousands of systems and at the universe headquarters, only three System Sovereigns have ever been found in contempt of the government of the Creator Son.

1. The Leaders of Rebellion (601.3) 53:1.1 Lucifer was not an ascendant being; he was a created Son of the local universe, and of him it was said: “You were perfect in all your ways from the day you were created till unrighteousness was found in you.” Many times had he been in counsel with the Most Highs of Edentia. And Lucifer reigned “upon the holy mountain of God,” the administrative mount of Jerusem, for he was the chief executive of a great system of 607 inhabited worlds.

(601.4) 53:1.2 Lucifer was a magnificent being, a brilliant personality; he stood next to the Most High Fathers of the constellations in the direct line of universe authority. Notwithstanding Lucifer’s transgression, subordinate intelligences refrained from showing him disrespect and disdain prior to Michael’s bestowal on Urantia. Even the archangel of Michael, at the time of Moses’ resurrection, “did not bring against him an accusing judgment but simply said, ‘the Judge rebuke you.’” Judgment in such matters belongs to the Ancients of Days, the rulers of the superuniverse.

(601.5) 53:1.3 Lucifer is now the fallen and deposed Sovereign of Satania. Self-contemplation is most disastrous, even to the exalted personalities of the celestial world. Of Lucifer it was said: “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom because of your brightness.” Your olden prophet saw his sad estate when he wrote: “How are you fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How are you cast down, you who dared to confuse the worlds!”

(602.1) 53:1.4 Very little was heard of Lucifer on Urantia owing to the fact that he assigned his first lieutenant, Satan, to advocate his cause on your planet. Satan was a member of the same primary group of Lanonandeks but had never functioned as a System Sovereign; he entered fully into the Lucifer insurrection. The “devil” is none other than Caligastia, the deposed Planetary Prince of Urantia and a Son of the secondary order of Lanonandeks. At the time Michael was on Urantia in the flesh, Lucifer, Satan, and Caligastia were leagued together to effect the miscarriage of his bestowal mission. But they signally failed.

(602.2) 53:1.5 Abaddon was the chief of the staff of Caligastia. He followed his master into rebellion and has ever since acted as chief executive of the Urantia rebels. Beelzebub was the leader of the disloyal midway creatures who allied themselves with the forces of the traitorous Caligastia.

(602.3) 53:1.6 The dragon eventually became the symbolic representation of all these evil personages. Upon the triumph of Michael, “Gabriel came down from Salvington and bound the dragon (all the rebel leaders) for an age.” Of the Jerusem seraphic rebels it is written: “And the angels who kept not their first estate but left their own habitation, he has reserved in sure chains of darkness to the judgment of the great day.”

More from the Urantia book:

2. The Causes of Rebellion (602.4) 53:2.1 Lucifer and his first assistant, Satan, had reigned on Jerusem for more than five hundred thousand years when in their hearts they began to array themselves against the Universal Father and his then vicegerent Son, Michael.

(602.5) 53:2.2 There were no peculiar or special conditions in the system of Satania which suggested or favored rebellion. It is our belief that the idea took origin and form in Lucifer’s mind, and that he might have instigated such a rebellion no matter where he might have been stationed. Lucifer first announced his plans to Satan, but it required several months to corrupt the mind of his able and brilliant associate. However, when once converted to the rebel theories, he became a bold and earnest advocate of “self-assertion and liberty.”

(602.6) 53:2.3 No one ever suggested rebellion to Lucifer. The idea of self-assertion in opposition to the will of Michael and to the plans of the Universal Father, as they are represented in Michael, had its origin in his own mind. His relations with the Creator Son had been intimate and always cordial. At no time prior to the exaltation of his own mind did Lucifer openly express dissatisfaction about the universe administration. Notwithstanding his silence, for more than one hundred years of standard time the Union of Days on Salvington had been reflectivating to Uversa that all was not at peace in Lucifer’s mind. This information was also communicated to the Creator Son and the Constellation Fathers of Norlatiadek.

(602.7) 53:2.4 Throughout this period Lucifer became increasingly critical of the entire plan of universe administration but always professed wholehearted loyalty to the Supreme Rulers. His first outspoken disloyalty was manifested on the occasion of a visit of Gabriel to Jerusem just a few days before the open proclamation of the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty. Gabriel was so profoundly impressed with the certainty of the impending outbreak that he went direct to Edentia to confer with the Constellation Fathers regarding the measures to be employed in case of open rebellion.

(603.1) 53:2.5 It is very difficult to point out the exact cause or causes which finally culminated in the Lucifer rebellion. We are certain of only one thing, and that is: Whatever these first beginnings were, they had their origin in Lucifer’s mind. There must have been a pride of self that nourished itself to the point of self-deception, so that Lucifer for a time really persuaded himself that his contemplation of rebellion was actually for the good of the system, if not of the universe. By the time his plans had developed to the point of disillusionment, no doubt he had gone too far for his original and mischief-making pride to permit him to stop. At some point in this experience he became insincere, and evil evolved into deliberate and willful sin. That this happened is proved by the subsequent conduct of this brilliant executive. He was long offered opportunity for repentance, but only some of his subordinates ever accepted the proffered mercy. The Faithful of Days of Edentia, on the request of the Constellation Fathers, in person presented the plan of Michael for the saving of these flagrant rebels, but always was the mercy of the Creator Son rejected and rejected with increasing contempt and disdain.

3. The Lucifer Manifesto (603.2) 53:3.1 Whatever the early origins of trouble in the hearts of Lucifer and Satan, the final outbreak took form as the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty. The cause of the rebels was stated under three heads:

(603.3) 53:3.2 1. The reality of the Universal Father. Lucifer charged that the Universal Father did not really exist, that physical gravity and space-energy were inherent in the universe, and that the Father was a myth invented by the Paradise Sons to enable them to maintain the rule of the universes in the Father’s name. He denied that personality was a gift of the Universal Father. He even intimated that the finaliters were in collusion with the Paradise Sons to foist fraud upon all creation since they never brought back a very clear-cut idea of the Father’s actual personality as it is discernible on Paradise. He traded on reverence as ignorance. The charge was sweeping, terrible, and blasphemous. It was this veiled attack upon the finaliters that no doubt influenced the ascendant citizens then on Jerusem to stand firm and remain steadfast in resistance to all the rebel’s proposals.

(603.4) 53:3.3 2. The universe government of the Creator Son — Michael. Lucifer contended that the local systems should be autonomous. He protested against the right of Michael, the Creator Son, to assume sovereignty of Nebadon in the name of a hypothetical Paradise Father and require all personalities to acknowledge allegiance to this unseen Father. He asserted that the whole plan of worship was a clever scheme to aggrandize the Paradise Sons. He was willing to acknowledge Michael as his Creator-father but not as his God and rightful ruler.

(603.5) 53:3.4 Most bitterly did he attack the right of the Ancients of Days — “foreign potentates” — to interfere in the affairs of the local systems and universes. These rulers he denounced as tyrants and usurpers. He exhorted his followers to believe that none of these rulers could do aught to interfere with the operation of complete home rule if men and angels only had the courage to assert themselves and boldly claim their rights.

(603.6) 53:3.5 He contended that the executioners of the Ancients of Days could be debarred from functioning in the local systems if the native beings would only assert their independence. He maintained that immortality was inherent in the system personalities, that resurrection was natural and automatic, and that all beings would live eternally except for the arbitrary and unjust acts of the executioners of the Ancients of Days.

(604.1) 53:3.6 3. The attack upon the universal plan of ascendant mortal training. Lucifer maintained that far too much time and energy were expended upon the scheme of so thoroughly training ascending mortals in the principles of universe administration, principles which he alleged were unethical and unsound. He protested against the agelong program for preparing the mortals of space for some unknown destiny and pointed to the presence of the finaliter corps on Jerusem as proof that these mortals had spent ages of preparation for some destiny of pure fiction. With derision he pointed out that the finaliters had encountered a destiny no more glorious than to be returned to humble spheres similar to those of their origin. He intimated that they had been debauched by overmuch discipline and prolonged training, and that they were in reality traitors to their mortal fellows since they were now co-operating with the scheme of enslaving all creation to the fictions of a mythical eternal destiny for ascending mortals. He advocated that ascenders should enjoy the liberty of individual self-determination. He challenged and condemned the entire plan of mortal ascension as sponsored by the Paradise Sons of God and supported by the Infinite Spirit.

(604.2) 53:3.7 And it was with such a Declaration of Liberty that Lucifer launched his orgy of darkness and death.

The entire book may be read @ www.urantia.org or just click www.urantia.org... ellion

Satan(ha-satan) in hebrew means the opposer. As such it would seem he is made to oppose anything. From what i can understand until the time of revelations he is simple doing the will of God to test mans faith. I always found it interesting how man says he is constantly evil when these 2 scriptures seem to disagree with that.

But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"Jude 1:9

Is it not strange for a being as powerful and holy as Michael to dare not say anything bad about him?

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.Job 1:6

And the LORD said unto Satan, From where come you? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking up and down on it.Job 1:7

Interesting how a wicked being who has supposedly been cast out of earth for rebeling is able to come back and forth to earth and heaven as he pleases. But its not surprising seeing as how most christians do not read from the bible. Some simply just go to church and listen to the sermons of a man. But what i do wonder though is what it is thats gonna cuase him to rebel against God? If anyone has any thoughts id be interested in knowing.

Without the bible bait, what are you referring to?

How did lucifer (the light) first fail?

Greed. and it's natural. Even oliver twist wanted more.

The pious would tell you that it's a sin, but without it, they'd have nothing to cast you out for.

Without the devil, god is nothing but a giver of suffering....

Who is the real devil?

"You cannot have, you will not have, you must ask for."
"I give you, I offer you, you can take."

???

reply to post by Ralphy

Where did Satan get the materials/ideas to form the first lie?

Perhaps satan was created by God, with free will like humans. And satan chose to lie like any other human.

Why is a lie bad?
When Satan supposedly said the first lie, god would of had to known what a lie was and what it meant. So in heaven when everything was perfect god had already created concepts of lies, judgment, evil. Wouldn't god have shown Satan extra love if he saw him feeling down or feeling a lack of love? If god created a lie, and it existed within him, he would of had to transfer that concept to Satan somehow. Either through words or some kind of communication. How can a lie be bad if it came from god?

Well, a lie is an avoidance of the truth.
Lies could not have come from God, because God hates it and commands humans to turn away from it.
satan being a free willed being , like humans, simply chose not speak the truth. That does not mean God created the lie.

Wouldn't the actions of Satan be understandable?
It seems that "god" would have to hide part of his love to create a vacuum for fear(evil) to exist. In pure love there is no fear. Do you think a being/person would chose fear over love if they felt they had a choice? Satan would of lied because he thought it would bring him what he thought he lacked. If he didn't know what he lacked and didn't know how to fill the void then really mean he didn't know what he was doing in terms of good and bad.

Understandable?
By whom? By those who follow satan?
Then, yes. Because those who choose to lie and slander do so out of the same free will that was granted to satan.

I've also noticed you spell "satan" with a capital 'S', but spelled God with a lower case 'G'.
It has been addressed in this post.

reply to post by Ralphy

If you know more about this story then please enlighten me as I would like to see another side of this story that makes sense.

In Genesis 3 you have Adam telling The Lord that he did what the woman said.
Then the woman says it was something the serpent said.
Where is the serpent's story?
From my reading of Genesis, Adam was right there with Eve, through the whole encounter.
Why did Adam refer to Eve, instead of the serpent?
Could it be that serpents don't actually talk?
Could it be that Eve imagined what she wanted to hear?
Are the falsehoods a product of our own minds?
I would think so.

In 2 Corinthians 11, Paul says, 'Don't be deceived like Eve was' . . . the end.
No mention of a serpent.

Perhaps satan was created by God, with free will like humans. And satan chose to lie like any other human.

Why would he lie? People don't just lie for no reason. Why would someone have to fear the truth in the first place?

Well, a lie is an avoidance of the truth.
Lies could not have come from God, because God hates it and commands humans to turn away from it.
satan being a free willed being , like humans, simply chose not speak the truth. That does not mean God created the lie.

So god created all things except for the lie? So if a lie is avoidance of truth and truth is all there is, I don't see why a lie is so bad because it points to truth then. What is free will? How do we choose freely when we are so ignorant? It is impossible to make good decisions with such little knowledge especially when it concerns things that cannot be seen.

Understandable?
By whom? By those who follow satan?
Then, yes. Because those who choose to lie and slander do so out of the same free will that was granted to satan.

People do not lie for the fun of it. People live in a world that has broken their hearts and they are struggling to make it through life. If you look at the source of a lie you will find love. Why do you say people follow satan? Who is satan following?

I've also noticed you spell "satan" with a capital 'S', but spelled God with a lower case 'G'.
It has been addressed in this post.

The reason satan is capitalized instead of god is because spell check underlines the name satan but not god so that is the only reason for that.

From my understanding you are a believer of the bible so this obviously isn't going to make sense to you.

reply to post by Ralphy

Why would he lie? People don't just lie for no reason. Why would someone have to fear the truth in the first place?

People dont lie for no reason. True.
But when people lie, it is usually due to selfishness or pride or for profit or to attack someone.
One does not always lie because they fear the truth.

So if a lie is avoidance of truth and truth is all there is, I don't see why a lie is so bad because it points to truth then. What is free will? How do we choose freely when we are so ignorant? It is impossible to make good decisions with such little knowledge especially when it concerns things that cannot be seen.

But isn't the lie bad in itself?
If someone lied out of their free will, and caused you to lose your possessions or damaged your reputation...or broke you up with your beloved, would you not hate the liar, or would you say "the lie just pointed to the truth". ??

People do not lie for the fun of it. People live in a world that has broken their hearts and they are struggling to make it through life. If you look at the source of a lie you will find love. Why do you say people follow satan? Who is satan following?

People lie for various reasons.
Perhaps to be able to take home a loaf of bread to feed a poverty stricken family... or to make an extra buck and rip someone off.
Not every "lie" is to make it through life.

Turn on the news or pick up a newspaper.... or just look around.
The whole world complains about lying corrupt politicians and leaders, lying unfaithful spouses, lying greedy people....why? because it affects them personally.

Ralphy the whole concept is way deeper than one can imagine
www.abovetopsecret.com...

It seems to me that Satan must have been the right hand of god. Only through carrying out gods will and judgements could satan have developed a knowedge of good and evil. Only through performing the most unspeakable acts as he must have been commanded to by god could lucifer see the falibility and cruel unjustness of god...

I think Lucifer is the same as Satan. Lucifer is known as the morning star. Jesus or Yeshua is also called the morning star in revelations? Perhaps morning star was just a title and seeing as how Lucifer was God's favorite son but would fall, can we say that the title morning star was just recycled to Jesus? Satan was the accuser and interceded for God pointing out sin, like Yeshua (Jesus). I like this view, the idea of a binitarian power in heaven was traced all the way back to the second Jewish temple:

Twenty-five years ago, rabbinical scholar Alan Segal produced what is still the major work on the idea of two powers in heaven in Jewish thought. Segal argued that the two powers idea was not deemed heretical in Jewish theology until the second century C.E. He carefully traced the roots of the teaching back into the Second Temple era (ca. 200 B.C.E.). Segal was able to establish that the idea’s antecedents were in the Hebrew Bible, specifically passages like Dan 7:9ff., Exo 23:20-23, and Exo 15:3. However, he was unable to discern any coherent religious framework from which these passages and others were conceptually derived. Persian dualism was unacceptable as an explanation since neither of the two powers in heaven were evil. Segal speculated that the divine warrior imagery of the broader ancient near east likely had some relationship.

So Satan was def. not an equal to God, just a son of god who had his favor.

In my dissertation (UW-Madison, 2004) I argued that Segal’s instincts were correct. My own work bridges the gap between his book and the Hebrew Bible understood in its Canaanite religious context. I suggest that the “original model” for the two powers idea was the role of the vice-regent of the divine council. The paradigm of a high sovereign God (El) who rules heaven and earth through the agency of a second, appointed god (Baal) became part of Israelite religion, albeit with some modification. For the orthodox Israelite, Yahweh was both sovereign and vice regent—occupying both “slots” as it were at the head of the divine council. The binitarian portrayal of Yahweh in the Hebrew Bible was motivated by this belief. The ancient Israelite knew two Yahwehs—one invisible, a spirit, the other visible, often in human form. The two Yahwehs at times appear together in the text, at times being distinguished, at other times not.

Early Judaism understood this portrayal and its rationale. There was no sense of a violation of monotheism since either figure was indeed Yahweh. There was no second distinct god running the affairs of the cosmos. During the Second Temple period, Jewish theologians and writers speculated on an identity for the second Yahweh. Guesses ranged from divinized humans from the stories of the Hebrew Bible to exalted angels. These speculations were not considered unorthodox. That acceptance changed when certain Jews, the early Christians, connected Jesus with this orthodox Jewish idea. This explains why these Jews, the first converts to following Jesus the Christ, could simultaneously worship the God of Israel and Jesus, and yet refuse to acknowledge any other god. Jesus was the incarnate second Yahweh. In response, as Segal’s work demonstrated, Judaism pronounced the two powers teaching a heresy sometime in the second century A.D.

www.twopowersinheaven.com...

Why is a lie bad?

Well we know that God once commanded one of his sons to be a lying spirit in Kings 22:

"Therefore, hear the word of the LORD. I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left...And there came froth a spirit and stood before the Lord and said I will persuade him and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of the prophets."

reply to post by Ralphy


The story makes perfect sense if you know anything about Lucifer...a.k.a. Lux, Satan, Be'elzebub, Enki and many other names. Not many people know this but he was the choirmaster of heaven and he probably used music to decieve the other watchers just like he does man to this day through subliminal messaging.

Man wasn't El's first experiment with creating free choice. He started with Lucifer and the other watchers/messengers. How else could there have been war in heaven? Michael battled Lucifer and lost, he had to ask Elohim for help because Lucifer was stronger than he was.

reply to post by CaptainNemo

I think Lucifer is the same as Satan. Lucifer is known as the morning star.

According to the Satanic bible they are entirely different...

www.dpjs.co.uk...

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by Ralphy

 

The story makes perfect sense if you know anything about Lucifer...a.k.a. Lux, Satan, Be'elzebub, Enki and many other names. Not many people know this but he was the choirmaster of heaven and he probably used music to decieve the other watchers just like he does man to this day through subliminal messaging.

Man wasn't El's first experiment with creating free choice. He started with Lucifer and the other watchers/messengers. How else could there have been war in heaven? Michael battled Lucifer and lost, he had to ask Elohim for help because Lucifer was stronger than he was.

The story still doesn't make sense because there is no way to know for sure if any of these stories have any truth at all. People can swear up and down what happened in the past, but because we were not there, anything we say is speculative.

Originally posted by Ralphy

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by Ralphy

 

The story makes perfect sense if you know anything about Lucifer...a.k.a. Lux, Satan, Be'elzebub, Enki and many other names. Not many people know this but he was the choirmaster of heaven and he probably used music to decieve the other watchers just like he does man to this day through subliminal messaging.

Man wasn't El's first experiment with creating free choice. He started with Lucifer and the other watchers/messengers. How else could there have been war in heaven? Michael battled Lucifer and lost, he had to ask Elohim for help because Lucifer was stronger than he was.

The story still doesn't make sense because there is no way to know for sure if any of these stories have any truth at all. People can swear up and down what happened in the past, but because we were not there, anything we say is speculative.

It's called faith man. Doesn't matter what happpened in the past, look forward to the future of Yeshua haMeshiach's triumphant return.

The bible is a message of HOPE, thats all i really need to know.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Well, a lie is an avoidance of the truth.
Lies could not have come from God, because God hates it and commands humans to turn away from it.

A lie is the opposite of truth, not the avoidance of truth.
That being said, let's talk about your second statement here. You say lies could not have come from God, right? God told Adam he would die if he ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil. But he didn't die. "Satan" told Adam he would not die, and Adam did not die. Tell me, did God tell a lie, or did Satan tell a lie?
Jesus is quoted many times in the Bible saying that a believer can ask for anything through prayer and receive it. He even goes so far as to say that mountains and trees can be thrown into the sea simply by anyone praying for it. This is clearly a lie. I could go a lot deeper into this, but will digress, don't want to derail the thread.

reply to post by autowrench


Yes, Adam did die a human death. Otherwise, there never would have been a need for an afterlife.

God never said he was going to die the instant that he sinned.