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End Times prophecy's of Old Testament prophets and the near present future of the Middle East.

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posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 03:02 PM
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reply to post by Deetermined
 


Always good to inspire people to think. If you want to discuss this further, I'd be more than happy to do so over U2U. I'll check out that link a little later, when I can devote some time to it.




posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 03:43 PM
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reply to post by CLPrime
 


More interesting information and interpretation of the "two witnesses" (Old Testament, New Testament).

Also, symbolism interpretation (Revelation 11:4):

Two Olive Trees - Old Testament, New Testament
Two Lampstands - Gods Word, The Church

www.endtimes-bibleprophecy.com...

Thanks CLPrime! Looking forward to talking with you further at a later time via U2U.

Just wanted to post this additional information for others too.



posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 05:08 PM
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edit on 14-2-2012 by apushforenlightment because: Bah.Who cares. Dream away



posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 06:04 PM
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reply to post by CLPrime
 


If we just came out of the millenial reign then it's been one piss poor reign and Jesus is a liar. An estimated 500 million christians died in the spanish inquisition all across europe and in Revelation he says he will put an end to war and swords and spears would be remade into ploughshares which unfortunately for your eschatology, has never happened.

Your eschatology cannot be right.

The 7 churches match the 7 church periods from the first century being Ephesus right down to our current time period which would make us the church of Laodicia. According to Zecharia your eschatology is also flawed because he says that when Israel has become a nation again it will be less than a generation until the Lord returns. In the old testament the typical generation lasted 70 years. Israel was re-established and ratified as a nation in 1948 which puts us 63-64 years into the last generation which means it cannot be too long before Christ returns in his second coming.
edit on 14-2-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 06:57 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by CLPrime
 


If we just came out of the millenial reign then it's been one piss poor reign and Jesus is a liar. An estimated 500 million christians died in the spanish inquisition all across europe and in Revelation he says he will put an end to war and swords and spears would be remade into ploughshares which unfortunately for your eschatology, has never happened.


But it has. See, you're looking for these things to happen on a global scale. This was never the implication. What we have, rather, is a Church in which no one wars, battles, fights, or even hates. If anyone does these things, they are not of the true Church of God. We have a peaceful kingdom, exactly as the prophets foresaw.



The 7 churches match the 7 church periods from the first century being Ephesus right down to our current time period which would make us the church of Laodicia.


That's cheating on behalf of Futurists in an attempt to make sense of the "things that must soon come to pass" requirement on the entire Book of Revelation. In reality, the letters were just letters to the seven churches in Asia Minor - no more, no less.
I bet you I can find 10, maybe even 15, church "periods" over the past 1980 years if I wanted to. In fact, if I look hard enough, I bet I can find at least 20. Give me a number, I'll find you a corresponding number of church periods. This is what I (starting now) like to call "Scriptural pareidolia."



According to Zecharia your eschatology is also flawed because he says that when Israel has become a nation again it will be less than a generation until the Lord returns. In the old testament the typical generation lasted 70 years. Israel was re-established and ratified as a nation in 1948 which puts us 63-64 years into the last generation which means it cannot be too long before Christ returns in his second coming.


Would you mind giving me the passage where Zechariah states that the Lord would return within a generation of Israel becoming a nation?



posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 08:09 PM
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reply to post by CLPrime
 


Well here's a prophecy from Zecharia that is end times that has yet to be fulfilled and it's a major one:

Zecharia 12:1-14

A prophecy: The word of the LORD concerning Israel.
The LORD, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares: 2 “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem. 3 On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves. 4 On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the LORD. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations. 5 Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the LORD Almighty is their God.’

6 “On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

7 “The LORD will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah. 8 On that day the LORD will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD going before them. 9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.

Mourning for the One They Pierced
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be as great as the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. 12 The land will mourn, each clan by itself, with their wives by themselves: the clan of the house of David and their wives, the clan of the house of Nathan and their wives, 13 the clan of the house of Levi and their wives, the clan of Shimei and their wives, 14 and all the rest of the clans and their wives.

This is a major part that has happened. Only a small fraction of jews accept the messiah, according to this passage it will be every one of them from every tribe, "the one they pierced" can only be one person...Jesus. The entire book of Zecharia pactically speaks about the second coming.

Right now Islam owns 75-80% of what Israel once was, they divided up HIS land amoung themselves. Yahweh gave everything from the Nile River to the Euphrates to the tribes of Jacob, and right now all that land is in the hands of the Arabs except maybe 20-25% currently held by the modern zionist Israel.

Like you, i have prayed and asked for answers and i have been given them, the end time events are just beginning. The Gog and Magog war hasn't even started yet but it is about to and it is this thing that is going down in the middle east with Israel and Iran. Gog is Turkey, more specifically the Ottoman Empire which is about to be reborn once the sunni Muslim Brotherhood reunites Islam. It's not true that the church has enjoyed peace the last 1000 years, not by a long shot. Back in WW1 millions of christians were beheaded by the Ottomans and thrown into the mediteranean where U.S. ships offshore of Turkey couldn't leave because the hair of all those christian men and women got tangled up in the propellers.

Then there's the Spanish Inquisition where hundreds of millions of protestant christians were burned at the stake and tortured to death by the R.C.C.

Go even further back and you find the Crusades. For the last millenium we have had nothing but war, persecution and murder and much of it within the church's own ranks.

The Beast is probably the R.C.C. which is really the Holy Roman Empire, the Roman Empire was never destroyed it just changed forms to survive because the Caesars knew they couldn't conquer the world through military strength but they could do it with religion. The Beasts Image would be the Ottoman Empire, so we have 2 antichrist's setting the stage and they will merge into one and i have alot of proof to show for ir but not a whole lot of room here to do it.



posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 08:18 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by CLPrime
 


Well here's a prophecy from Zecharia that is end times that has yet to be fulfilled and it's a major one:


Couldn't find the one you referred to? The closest thing to what you mentioned that I know of is Luke 21:32, which was in reference to the destruction of Jerusalem (an event that most certainly happened while the generation Jesus was speaking to was still alive).



Zecharia 12:1-14 ...

This is a major part that has happened. Only a small fraction of jews accept the messiah, according to this passage it will be every one of them from every tribe, "the one they pierced" can only be one person...Jesus.


It says all the clans would mourn, but this in no way indicates that every Jew would mourn. But, in the book of Acts, I think (actually, I know) you'll find Jews from all over the world mourning the crucifixion of Jesus. That would certainly seem to fit Zechariah's description.



The entire book of Zecharia pactically speaks about the second coming.


Nowhere is the "Second Coming" mentioned in the entire Old Testament.
Nowhere.



Like you, i have prayed and asked for answers and i have been given them, ...


Unfortunately, you've been given the wrong answers.
This may seem like a random question, but have you been baptized?
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posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 08:22 PM
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reply to post by CLPrime
 


Wow you're rather disrespectful to a brother...
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posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 08:25 PM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


Depends on whether or not you're a brother (hence the point of my last question). The Apostle Paul was quick to rebuke his brother Peter when he was wrong. Paul was also quick to rebuke false brethren when they proclaimed a doctrine that was not from God's Word. This has to be done to keep deception from spreading.
edit on 14-2-2012 by CLPrime because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 08:51 PM
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reply to post by CLPrime
 


I've been baptized twice, not that baptism has any bearing on your salvation. I am not saying i am a prophet, i am presenting the evidence i have found with what i believe and what i have read. I'm not going to assume i know every thing because i do not and that implies vanity and pride. When i pray i ask for guidence in what i read and sometimes i have dreams about reading certain scripture or a sudden desire to delve into the bible, wether old or new testament comes over me.

Real world events say your eschatology is flawed, not to mention the fact (that you plainly ignored) was that the church has not had peace for the passed 1000 years. I'm a historian, history is my business and when i read things from the bible pertaining to last days events i compare them to the book of Revelation and then compare them to events in history. Yahshua has not returned because Revelaton says the whole world will see him coming with power and great glory and that too has not happened yet, nor do we see a city called New Jerusalem that is 1500 miles long/wide and 1500 miles high which are its dimensions.



posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 09:22 PM
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Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by CLPrime
 


I've been baptized twice, not that baptism has any bearing on your salvation.


Acts 2:38 - "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Acts 22:16 - "And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name."

Romans 6:3-4 - Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Galatians 3:26-27 - So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Colossians 2:11-12 - In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Titus 3:5 - he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

1 Peter 3:21 - and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is most definitely necessary for salvation. And salvation is necessary to understand the Word of God.



posted on Feb, 14 2012 @ 11:25 PM
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reply to post by CLPrime
 


2 Messiahs or 3? Looking at the prophecy at least 2. And the way it's worded it appears there is 2 messengers.

The full prophecy.
1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the LORD, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.

If Jesus Christ was the Lord of the prophecy then clearly 2 messengers were to accompany him. One being Elijah as predicted in verse 4-5 and 4-6. Which means the mystery messenger never showed up. Also while Jesus Christ did go to the temple he clearly never fulfilled verses 3 and 4. This clearly is not a fulfilled prophecy. John the Baptist never got to the temple. His job was not complete. The curse of Malachi was triggered.

Since you appear not to believe in the curse lets go over the details in Hosea.

Hosea 1
4 And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.
5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel, in the valley of Jezreel.
6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.
7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
8 Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son.
9 Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God.
10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.
11 Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.

Hosea 3
3 And I said unto her, Thou shalt abide for me many days; thou shalt not play the harlot, and thou shalt not be for another man: so will I also be for thee.
4 For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:
5 Afterward shall the children of Israel return, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness in the latter days.

Hosea 5
13 When Ephraim (Israel) saw his sickness, and Judah saw his wound, then went Ephraim to the Assyrian, and sent to king Jareb: yet could he not heal you, nor cure you of your wound.
14 For I will be unto Ephraim as a lion, and as a young lion to the house of Judah: I, even I, will tear and go away; I will take away, and none shall rescue him.
15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offense, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.

Hosea 6
1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter and former rain unto the earth.
10 I have seen an horrible thing in the house of Israel: there is the whoredom of Ephraim, Israel is defiled.
11 Also, O Judah, he hath set an harvest for thee, when I returned the captivity of my people.

Hosea 9
16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.
17 My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations.

continued....



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 12:39 AM
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Hosea 13
7 Therefore I will be unto them as a lion: as a leopard by the way will I observe them:
8 I will meet them as a bear that is bereaved of her whelps, and will rend the caul of their heart, and there will I devour them like a lion: the wild beast shall tear them.
9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me is thine help.
10 I will be thy king: where is any other that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes?
11 I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath.
12 The iniquity of Ephraim is bound up; his sin is hid.
13 The sorrows of a travailing woman shall come upon him: he is an unwise son; for he should not stay long in the place of the breaking forth of children.
14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.


That is nothing less than a description of a top level Leviticus 26 curse. The nations being destroyed. God himself actively nailing them with punishments and curses.

Now lets look at the history of the last 2000 years.

25 to 35 AD. Death of Jesus Christ.
70 AD and the destruction of Jerusalem.
135 AD and the failed Bar Kochba revolt. Start of the diaspora.
Various pogroms and persecutions of the Jews since then.
The Inquisition.
1930 to 1945. WW2.
Ongoing Palestine problems today.

It surely looks like the Jews triggered a Leviticus 26 curse based on the history of the last 2000 years.

Now lets go over Hosea 6-1 and 6-2. Are those days thousand year periods of time?

1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

While i did refer to 2nd Peter 3-8 on that I would point out here that verse is based on Psalms 90-4. And Hosea 6-1 clearly states this happens in the presence of the Lord. Also it is a known fact that prophecy distorts timeframes. Daniel 9 and the 70 weeks of years for example. Also look at Ezekiel 4. A declaration of a previous curse.

4 Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity.
5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

A 390 year curse on Israel and a 40 year curse on Judah. Described as days standing in for years. Days standing in for 1000 year periods of time? Quite plausible based on Psalms 90-4. The context is there.

Also you alluded to Jesus Christ and his 3 day rebuilding of the temple. I would say he was alluding to this curse of Malachi and Psalms 90-4 when he made that statement. Destroy this temple and I will replace it in 3000 years. Also predicted in Revelation 21.

And for the last 2 points in your reply. The increase in knowledge and the multitude of nations defining the end of days well, lets add another prophecy to the mix.

Matthew 24-14
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I would point out that this prophecy could not literally be fulfilled until the 20th century. Quite simply not all the "nations" of the world were discovered until the 20th century. Barring something weird like a hollow earth or parallel dimensions.

The end of days is still a future event. Yes, the increase of knowledge is secular knowledge. The point of people running to and fro about the earth would seem to indicate that. And Genesis indicates a multitude of nations and the descendants of Abraham being countless as the stars in the sky or the grains of sand on a seashore.



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 07:18 AM
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Originally posted by CLPrime
Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ is most definitely necessary for salvation. And salvation is necessary to understand the Word of God.


It's a very good post, thank you, but of course someone has to disagree


Baptism in water is not a requirement for salvation. Water is merely a symbol of the real baptism, and while important, not a requirement. Your quotes are all perfectly correct, but none specify it as a REQUIREMENT, merely a public confirmation.

The requirements for being born again are very simple:

Obey The laws of God
Give testimony of Jesus Christ.

10 commandments and speaking your personal (divine) truth to people. I think it's very reasonable?



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 08:50 AM
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reply to post by CLPrime
 


Then i guess that makes Jesus a liar when he told the thief on the cross next to him who repented and asked forgiveness and to be remembered,

Luke 23:39-43

[39] One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

[40] But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? [41] We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

[42] Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

[43] Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

This thief who repented did not get baptized, is he in hell? If so then you make Jesus a liar.



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 09:33 AM
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If Islam is the Antichrist then what the HELL is the zionists and one eyed democracy system for that is fighting Islam?

The real antichrist system wants to destroy all religions, and then bring forth the one eyed antichrist.



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 09:38 AM
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I think the US is the whore and the midle east, the beast or the one world government is the beast? ''The Beast is going to be a one world religion/government that will not tolerate religious freedom of any kind''

But not that I really believe that but when reading revelations it makes somehow sence.

‘Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot (america) who sits on many waters (seas), with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication (the rest of the world is doing it with her/america), and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication (coca cola/mcdonalds/movies/music/computers?).’” Revelation 17:5 goes on to say, “And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT (statue of liberty?), THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.” Who is this “whore of Babylon” and what is “mystery Babylon”?

Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: 5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

Statue of liberty:



7 Spikes in the Crown represent:

Either Seven Seas:

Arctic, Antarctic, North & South Atlantic,
North & South Pacific, Indian.


Revelation 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city (New-York), which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

Read more here:
yahushua.net...



________

Not saying this is true, but maybe a possiblity.
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extra DIV



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 09:50 AM
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There is a battle between God and Satan, good and evil, right and wrong, the dajjal and jesus, muslims and zionists.

I will join the muslims of Iran and Hezbollah, not the satanists of saudi arabia or jordan, I will join the Shi'a(followers) of the prophet Mohammed and his household (pbut). Not the sunnis of syria or turkey or alqaeda.

The Shi'a(followers) will stand against this destructive system of the zionists which has no morals. this manipulative, oppressive, unjust system that gives way to the likes of Lady Gaga and jersey shore. This false system that creates an illusion, a system that is based on desire.

I will fully submit to Allah, to submit fully is to become a muslim, and therefore I will control my desires. I will choose the afterlife over this life. I will not support the antichrist system. which is already in decline, as Allah prepared the people for Imam Mahdi (as).

The zionists know they cant stop Imam Mahdi (as) but what they can do is mislead people away thus dragging as many people to hellfire.

The elites modified Christianity and made it into a pagan religion of sun worship. changing bits and pieces, they corrupted the religion and made God to have a son, jesus is the son/sun of god and he is god. and so when the antichrist claims godhood, people will accept it because thats what their foundation is based on.

The fact that the prophet Mohammed (pbuh) said that ONLY 1 out of 73 muslim sects will NOT taste hellfire.

meaning that 72 other muslim sects will join the disbelievers in hell.

Imam Al Mahdi is a reality, and he will come to destroy ZION, and he will create the world order for good.

The zionists will oppose him because he will spread wealth fairly.

read more about Imam Mahdi, zionists, and the real truth: link

Shi'a Islam of Imam Ali (as) and all the other Imams (as) who were cheated and assassinated by other so called muslims will be redeemed by Imam Mahdi (as).

thank you for reading

regards.

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posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 10:24 AM
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reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


That's an old argument that the originator obviously never put much thought into. Jesus had power on Earth to forgive sins (Mark 2:10). The thief on the cross was saved before Jesus died, and it's through Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection that baptism has its power. How could the thief on the cross be baptized before the whole point of baptism was established?
The thief was saved the same way the rest of those under the Old Covenant were saved...by faith. This is also the same way we're saved under the New Covenant...except that faith is now shown through believing the Gospel, repenting, confessing Jesus as Lord, and being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
You'll notice, Cornelius and his household were righteous, they had the Spirit come on them, they seemed to have everything necessary for salvation according to the "baptism is not necessary" crowd...and, yet, they were not saved until they were baptized. (It was said that Peter would tell them what they must do to be saved. Peter told them two things: 1) the Gospel, which they already knew; and 2) to be baptized, the only thing they hadn't done yet. It must have been through baptism, then, that the household was saved).



posted on Feb, 15 2012 @ 01:15 PM
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Originally posted by CLPrime
reply to post by lonewolf19792000
 


That's an old argument that the originator obviously never put much thought into. Jesus had power on Earth to forgive sins (Mark 2:10). The thief on the cross was saved before Jesus died, and it's through Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection that baptism has its power. How could the thief on the cross be baptized before the whole point of baptism was established?
The thief was saved the same way the rest of those under the Old Covenant were saved...by faith. This is also the same way we're saved under the New Covenant...except that faith is now shown through believing the Gospel, repenting, confessing Jesus as Lord, and being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
You'll notice, Cornelius and his household were righteous, they had the Spirit come on them, they seemed to have everything necessary for salvation according to the "baptism is not necessary" crowd...and, yet, they were not saved until they were baptized. (It was said that Peter would tell them what they must do to be saved. Peter told them two things: 1) the Gospel, which they already knew; and 2) to be baptized, the only thing they hadn't done yet. It must have been through baptism, then, that the household was saved).


The major contention around that time period was when the jewish christians began to merge and intermingle with the gentile christians after Peter recieved a vision from God concerning unclean food in which God told him "call not what i have cleansed unclean. So Cornelius was already cleansed of his sins by Christ before he ever approached Peter, because the visions wasn't about food it was about the gentiles whom the jewish christians were very leery of.

Acts 11: 1-18

1 The apostles and the believers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him 3 and said, “You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them.”
4 Starting from the beginning, Peter told them the whole story: 5 “I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision. I saw something like a large sheet being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to where I was. 6 I looked into it and saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, reptiles and birds. 7 Then I heard a voice telling me, ‘Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.’

8 “I replied, ‘Surely not, Lord! Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’

9 “The voice spoke from heaven a second time, ‘Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.’ 10 This happened three times, and then it was all pulled up to heaven again.

11 “Right then three men who had been sent to me from Caesarea stopped at the house where I was staying. 12 The Spirit told me to have no hesitation about going with them. These six brothers also went with me, and we entered the man’s house. 13 He told us how he had seen an angel appear in his house and say, ‘Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. 14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’

15 “As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with[a] water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in God’s way?”

18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, “So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.”

So as you can see, it is not baptism in water that saved them and made them clean it was baptism by the Holy Spirit which they had already gained by believing in Jesus. By you saying baptism by water saves you, negates Christ as being the medium for salvation and you make yourself antichrist.
edit on 15-2-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)



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