Catholic League Poised To Go To War With Obama Over Mandatory Birth Control Payments

reply to post by sonnny1


I agree. On a personal note, I can't believe that he had the audacity to try and stick their rule on a topic that they know the Church would take seriously. This shows me a serious lack of respect and in my opinion is the kind of thing that could become a very slipper slope....Governement has no place in religion. I guess I am confused because I thought those in congress agreed! To the comment that not everybody that works for the Church is Catholic or even Christian, they don't have to!

The GOP is making this an issue because they have nothing else to go after. This is already law in 28 states.

Many Catholic Universities, Hospitals Already Cover Contraception In Their Health Insurance Plans

Twenty-eight states already require organizations that offer prescription insurance to cover contraception and since 98 percent of Catholic women use birth control, many Catholic institutions offer the benefit to their employees.
...
Similarly, an informal survey conducted by Our Sunday Visitor found that many Catholic colleges have purchased insurance plans that provide contraception benefits:

If Catholics don't want to take birth control, then they don't have to (although most do). But they cannot dictate limits on the coverage of their employees. Their control only goes so far.

INDIVIDUALS should be free to use birth control if they choose to.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by ignorant_ape
this is not forcing catholics to use birth control , its forcing catholic organisations health plans [ insurance ] to PAY FOR birth control

Which is still against the Catholic religion. Catholics are not allowed to assist others in having abortions or using birth control (which many times are abortificants). It's THEIR FAITH. It has nothing to do with if the person getting the birth control is Catholic or not.

Catholic hospitals are CATHOLIC church outreach programs.
They are CATHOLIC. CATHOLIC .. get it?
Anyone who works there knows it's a CATHOLIC Church outreach.
Therefore, to expect that Catholic Church outreach to go against it's religion ... that is absurd.

If they want free birth control that badly .. they can go work for a city hospital ..
or a doctors office .. or somewhere else. Common sense.

Don't these Catholic hospitals receive federal tax dollars through Medicare, Medicaid, etc..? It's not as if they are funded solely by the Catholic church. How would you feel about it if a Muslim hospital had a policy of supporting honor killings and refused treatment to victims of such behavior? Or, how would you feel about a Mormon hospital that had a policy of baptizing the dead into the Mormon faith, regardless of their previous religious beliefs, like the Romney's did with their dead father-in-law?

www.dailymail.co.uk...

More questions are being raised about presidential candidate Mitt Romney's religion after it was revealed that he helped baptise his adamantly atheist father-in-law years after the man had died.
Edward Roderick Davies was Ann Romney's father and died in 1992 after living as a staunch atheist all his life.
Recently-discovered records show that, in keeping with their controversial tradition of posthumously baptising non-Mormons, a ceremony was held to invite Mr Davies into the Church of Latter Day Saints one year after he died.

Devout: Mitt Romney's Mormon faith has been a point of contention among the Republican party's many conservative Christian supporters who have issues with the religion and

Mitt Romney's father George took an active role in converting Ann (left) to Mormonism when she was a teenager
The practice of performing baptisms for the dead has drawn criticism after the Mormon church began doing so for well-known Catholics- including former popes- and Jews- including Holocaust survivors.
According to the religion's official website, the baptisms are seen as a way to offer those souls an option of joining the Church even once they have died. A key point is that it is seen as an option- as the souls are believed to have the ability to either accept or reject the baptism.

Religion has no place in dictating health care law, plain & simple. If you ask me, "Common Sense" would dictate that religious organizations stick to religion and leave healthcare to someone with a more objective viewpoint, anything else is absurd.

reply to post by Flatfish


It's amazing that some of the biggest critics of Sharia Law in the US are so willing to accept Catholic Law...

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
But they cannot dictate limits on the coverage of their employees.

Yes. They can. Go back and read the laws I posted on the previous page.

INDIVIDUALS should be free to use birth control if they choose to.

No one is stopping those individuals from using birth control or getting abortions. No one. They are free to go get it all they want. It just won't be paid for by the CATHOLIC Church outreach hospitals.


And if some church hospitals or schools CHOSE to offer this type of coverage .. it's their CHOICE to go against their faith (and honestly, they shouldn't be hanging the 'Catholic' shingle out .. it's wrong). But for the government to MANDATE that they have to go against Church law is a whole different story.

You can't compare a Church hospital exercising CHOICE to go against the faith - with the government unconstititionally MANDATING that a Church outreach go against it's religion.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by xuenchen

 

Originally posted by xuenchen
However, the Administration has been handing out waivers and exceptions like crazy.

Some actually religious based.

Is this true? Can you provide a link?

Because I was under the impression that the waivers (some 1200) were for health benefit caps, not religion. And those will be removed in the next couple years. What are the religious exceptions?

Health bills allow some a religious exemption


Amish families exempt from insurance mandate


exemptions bill's language

Originally posted by Flatfish
Don't these Catholic hospitals receive federal tax dollars through Medicare, Medicaid, etc..? It's not as if they are funded solely by the Catholic church.

I've said it before .. if this is such a problem then cut the funding.
Of course .. you'll be spitting on all the poor people that the hospitals help .. all just so some workers can get free abortions and birth control pills. Catholic hospitals traditionally are built in the poorest neighborhoods. But what the heck ... go ahead and cut the funds and let 'em close. That'll show those darn Catholics .. won't it?

How would you feel about it if a Muslim hospital had a policy of supporting honor killings and refused treatment to victims of such behavior?

Whole different story. Killing people is against the law. However, a Catholic outreach program exercising it's first amendment rights is NOT against the law. BIG difference.

Religion has no place in dictating health care law, plain & simple.

Government has no place dictating that a Church outreach has to go against it's faith.

"Common Sense" would dictate that religious organizations stick to religion and leave healthcare to someone with a more objective viewpoint, anything else is absurd.

"Common Sense" would dictate that many people who are ill want to receive health care in an environment that is in line with their faith. Catholic hospitals offer that. MANY people do not want secular buildings and secular doctors when they are seriously ill, but instead want something more comforting. To take that away from them because some people want free birth control pills ... that is what is absurd.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
It's amazing that some of the biggest critics of Sharia Law in the US are so willing to accept Catholic Law...

Oh pleeeeze .. you aren't going to try to spin it that way are you? DEFLECTION.
Go back and read the first page. It's very clear. 1st Amendment rights ... It's all there.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by Flatfish

 

It's amazing that some of the biggest critics of Sharia Law in the US are so willing to accept Catholic Law...

I couldn't agree more and I don't think anyone could have laid it out any better than Aasif Mandvi did in his recent piece on "The Daily Show." I couldn't find the video in a format conducive to imbedding here on ATS but it's quite an amusing piece to say the least. It can be viewed here;

www.thedailyshow.com...

Originally posted by FlyersFan
This is the Catholic faith - it says they can't participate IN ANY MANNER - which includes helping others to have abortions or abortificants or birth control.

I can't find anywhere that they can't participate in any manner. Nor can I find where it says it's a "serious sin" to assist someone with birth control. It just says it's evil.

reply to post by Flatfish


I saw that. It was very good.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Look, religion is not healthcare and healthcare is not religion. The fact that religious entities have chosen to engage in "outreach" programs doesn't give them legal immunity to operate that program as they see fit.

Many communities don't have access to a non-catholic hospital and to force those people to forfeit their right to unbiased healthcare is ludicrous. None of the laws cited by you in the previous post, gives religious organizations the free will to restrict healthcare to methods approved by a particular ideology. You're reading things into the law that just aren't there. Furthermore, I didn't see one mention of "religious outreach programs" as being protected under the law. Who's to limit what ventures a religious organization may choose to participate in under the guise of "religious outreach programs?"

And we wonder why people like Bill Maher have such mainstream support? It's not just the government telling us what to do that has people so disgusted, it's religious zealots attempting to impose their ideologies upon the masses that has them outraged as well. Apparently, having dominion over their church isn't enough, these people want to control what takes place in our bedrooms, in our schools, on our T.V. sets and now in our ability to receive unbiased healthcare.

This law is nothing new, 28 states already have it and if the Catholic religion can't seem to find a way to administer unbiased healthcare in a way that conforms to the law then they should get the hell out of healthcare.

reply to post by Flatfish


I believe the Catholic Church is not so much worried about birth control as it is about the government mandating what the church has to do. The fact the government mandate is contrary to their principles is secondary. This is governmental control over religious beliefs and practices and that is what many people, Catholics and otherwise, are objecting to.

Some time ago, Nancy Pelosi, speaking in her official capacity as speaker of the house instructed Catholic leaders to preach over their pulpits support for Obamacare. That was wrong as well. Under the U.S. Constitution, no governmental authority should be exercised over the practice of religion. That's what the founding fathers were fleeing from, and that was clearly their intent for the nation they founded. Pelosi and now Obamacare are violations of the Constitutions prohibitions against government interference or control over the practice of ANY religion. THAT is what the Catholic church, and frankly, a lot of other religions, are fighting against. That is what is meant when people say Obama is trampling on the Constitution. It appears to be his intent to do away with the practice of free speech (political correctness, intolerance of conservative points of view, etc.) the right to bear arms, and freedom of religion.

This isn't about birth control. It's about government control over religion. First they came for the Catholics...

Originally posted by cwg100
I believe the Catholic Church is not so much worried about birth control as it is about the government mandating what the church has to do.

The government isn't telling churches what to do. This is for Catholic HOSPITAL employees, many of whom are NOT Catholic.

This isn't about birth control. It's about government control over religion.

The government isn't controlling religion. They are treating businesses equally.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I can't find anywhere that they can't participate in any manner. Nor can I find where it says it's a "serious sin" to assist someone with birth control. It just says it's evil.

I'm trying to be understanding about the fact you aren't 'up' on this Catholic stuff ...
I'll try to remember this lingo is new to you ...

You and I totally disagree with the Catholic belief of Onanism . Our thoughts on that are irrelevant to their faith and the law. It IS their belief ... here is it is ... (remember .. just because I know what it is doesn't mean I agree with it so don't shoot the messenger about these beleifs)

Engaging in something 'evil' is a 'serious sin'. 'Serious Sin' is a mortal sin. (you go to hell for it).

Assisting anyone engaging in a 'serious sin' is initself a 'serious sin'. (think of it like the USA pays Israel to bomb Iran. The USA is still guilty of bombing Iran even though technically they didn't touch Iran or the bombs)

Tells what mortal sin is and that Catholics can't help others commit sin.
(which is what they believe abortion and birth control are)
Catechism of the Catholic Church - Sin

1868 - Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:

- by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
- by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
- by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
- by protecting evil-doers

Catholics have an obligation of faith not to participate in abortion/birth control, not to 'approve' it (and by paying for it you approve it), and if you fail to 'hinder' it if it's in your power, then you are guilty of serious (mortal) sin.


*Take note - 'intrinsically wrong' in catholic-eeze means 'sin'. So does 'illicitness'
Catholic Answers - BIrth Control/abortion

In 1968, Pope Paul VI issued his landmark encyclical letter Humanae Vitae (Latin, "Human Life"), which reemphasized the Church’s constant teaching that it is always intrinsically wrong to use contraception to prevent new human beings from coming into existence.

Contraception is "any action which, either in anticipation of the conjugal act [sexual intercourse], or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible" (Humanae Vitae 14). This includes sterilization, condoms and other barrier methods, spermicides, coitus interruptus (withdrawal method), the Pill, and all other such methods.

This was reiterated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church: "[E]very action which, whether in anticipation of the conjugal act, or in its accomplishment, or in the development of its natural consequences, proposes, whether as an end or as a means, to render procreation impossible is intrinsically evil" (CCC 2370). "Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means . . . for example, direct sterilization or contraception" (CCC 2399).

The Church also has affirmed that the illicitness of contraception is an infallible doctrine: "The Church has always taught the intrinsic evil of contraception, that is, of every marital act intentionally rendered unfruitful. This teaching is to be held as definitive and irreformable. Contraception is gravely opposed to marital chastity, it is contrary to the good of the transmission of life (the procreative.aspect of matrimony), and to the reciprocal self-giving of the spouses (the unitive.aspect of matrimony); it harms true love and denies the sovereign role of God in the transmission of human life" (Vademecum for Confessors 2:4, Feb. 12, 1997).

If you want more I can keep going through the encyclicals and the catechism, as well as the Constitution.

My PERSONAL opinion of all this is that it is a throwback to the old days of outbreeding the enemy . And I think they got the Onanism interpretation wrong in the Old Testament. And probably less than half the Catholics I know follow this basic (and unchangable) tenant of their faith. But my opinion is irrelevant and it's irrelevant how many Catholics follow it. The fact is, it is a mandatory teaching of the Church and therefore Catholics can not participate IN ANY MANNER with abortion or artificial birth control and the government has to follow The First Amendment and Constitutional law. That's all the government needs to know.

Originally posted by cwg100
reply to post by Flatfish

 

I believe the Catholic Church is not so much worried about birth control as it is about the government mandating what the church has to do. The fact the government mandate is contrary to their principles is secondary. This is governmental control over religious beliefs and practices and that is what many people, Catholics and otherwise, are objecting to.

This isn't about birth control. It's about government control over religion. First they came for the Catholics...

Sorry, but this sounds a whole lot more like the church is the one mandating what the people have to do and the government is the one standing up for the people's right to choose for themselves. It would seem to me that your explanation is ass backwards at best.

Originally posted by cwg100
I believe the Catholic Church is not so much worried about birth control as it is about the government mandating what the church has to do.

And that is something that everyone should be worried about. The fact that big government is, once again, overstepping it's authority and thumbing it's nose at the Constitution.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
The government isn't telling churches what to do.

This is for Catholic HOSPITAL employees, many of whom are NOT Catholic.

The government IS telling churches what to do. This is a CATHOLIC church outreach. It doesn't matter what religion the employees are. They are working in the Catholic Church and therefore they get what the Catholic Church can give them. If they don't like it .. then don't work for the Church.

reply to post by FlyersFan


What about shuffling pedophiles around like they were playing a game of three card monte? Does that fall into their "evil deed" category? Just how evil does a deed have to be before it's recognized as a sin in the Catholic church?

The most disgusting act ever imagined was perpetuated by the Catholic church for decades and I'm supposed to look to them for spiritual guidance, Please!

Nothing, I repeat nothing, could be more hypocritical than to have the Catholic church preach moral values to me or anyone else. If anyone ever needed legal oversight, it would be the Catholic church!

this sounds a whole lot more like the church is the one mandating what the people have to do and the government is the one standing up for the people's right to choose for themselves. It would seem to me that your explanation is ass backwards at best.

Your explaination is what is ass backwards. The government is not standing up for the people. If it were, it would be following the Constitution and the First Amendment and it would be keeping it's nose out of the Church and it's outreach programs.

Originally posted by Flatfish
religion is not healthcare and healthcare is not religion. The fact that religious entities have chosen to engage in "outreach" programs doesn't give them legal immunity to operate that program as they see fit.

Following the law as set out by the US Constitution and the First Amendment isn't operating under 'legal immunity'. And yes, this religion has, for hundreds of years, operated hospitals as outreach to the poor.

Many communities don't have access to a non-catholic hospital and to force those people to forfeit their right to unbiased healthcare is ludicrous.

So lemme' get this straight .. you want the hospitals to continue operating, but in a secular manner? Then you have forfeited THEIR RIGHT to operate. Then they are no longer 'CATHOLIC' hospitals and there is no reason for the church to continue with their outreach. You want your cake and you want to eat it too.

None of the laws cited by you in the previous post, gives religious organizations the free will to restrict healthcare to methods approved by a particular ideology.

Yes it does. Go back and re-read the First Amendment. The US does not have the right to pass laws that restrict the Catholic Church from operating outreaches that follow their belief system.

I didn't see one mention of "religious outreach programs" as being protected under the law.

The words 'religious outreach programs' aren't there. The outreach programs are operated by the Church. The Church and the faith of the Church while operating the outreaches are protected.

we wonder why people like Bill Maher have such mainstream support?

Bill Maher is a moron. A rich moron. But still a moron.

religious zealots attempting to ...

blah blah blah .. irrelevant. The Constitution is very clear. The beliefs of the Church are very clear. The government is overstepping. It's just that simple.

if the Catholic religion can't seem to find a way to administer unbiased healthcare in a way that conforms to the law then they should get the hell out of healthcare.

- Catholic hospitals ARE conforming to the law. Again ... see the First Amendment.
- The Catholic hospitals aren't 'biased' .. they are following their faith as is their right.
- The 'biased' people are those like YOU .. who want to impose your belief system on others and who want to break the law while doing it.

Seriously dude .. you want your cake and you want to eat it too. Force the Catholic hospitals to close and hurt all the poor people who count on them, simply because they don't want to provide free birth control pills and free abortions for the people who agree to work for them (and it's their right not to provide it). You want the hospitals to be forced to stay open .. but only under your terms .. which are unconstitutional. This would force them to close. Really .... ya' want to eat the cake but you want to keep it as well. It makes no sense.

reply to post by Flatfish

Completely irrelevant to the discussion.
What is being discussed - the law and individual rights in regard to forcing the Catholic Church to go against it's faith.

- US LAW says that the Church does not have to go against it's faith.

- Catholic FAITH says it can't support abortion or artificial birth control.

- NO ONE is forced to work in a Catholic hospital or school - they can work elsewhere.

- NO ONE is having their birth control withheld - if they want it they can get it elsewhere.

- The Catholic hospitals and schools are outreaches from the Church. They are part of the Church.

- Catholics are being discriminated against all so that the Obama administration can try to score points with his base before the 2012 elections.

- The Catholic church has successfully run it's hospital and school outreaches into the poorest neighborhoods for hundreds of years. But by going against the US Constitution and breaking the law, the US Government will force Catholic hospitals and schools to close their doors, thus hurting those in this country who need those outreach programs the most.

Look ... these are CATHOLIC hospitals. Not secular ones.
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
You want them open? They'll be Catholic.
You want them to go against their faith? They'll be CLOSED.

reply to post by FlyersFan


Look, you keep saying all this stuff about the U.S. Constitution protecting religious "outreach programs" and that's a bald faced lie.

Could you just show me one legal document that designates any legal rights whatsoever to religious "outreach programs?" Or better yet, just show me the phrase "religious outreach program" used anywhere in the U.S. Constitution. You can't because it isn't there. Like I said before, you're reading things into the Constitution that aren't there.

Just because you make things up and say that they're true, doesn't make it so. Apparently, you're reading an entirely different Constitution, like maybe the church constitution or something.

Originally posted by Flatfish
you keep saying all this stuff about the U.S. Constitution protecting religious "outreach programs" and that's a bald faced lie.

This really isn't rocket science. Read the First Amendment. It protects Churches and the right of people to practice their faith. Try to get through your anti-Catholic hatred and understand .. the CHURCH outreach programs are part of the CHURCH. CATHOLIC hospitals. CATHOLIC schools. These are part of the CATHOLIC CHURCH. Just because they aren't in a building with stained glass doesn't make them less a part of the CHURCH.

Jez ... I can't keep spoon feeding someone who just babbles and throws it all back up over and over.