Civilian vs. Citizen

After watching a certain movie some time ago, me and some mates have come to the following conclusion regarding Civilians and Citizens;

In our opinion we feel there should be a segregated population. Those who are Civilians, and those who are Citizens.

To further explain:

Civilians: People who live in a country living their lives normally.

Citizens: Same thing, but have served their country in some form (i.e.. Military).

We sit and see a large number of dendrophiliac (person who undertakes sexual acts with trees) hippies abusing our soldiers when they come back from international deployment. It happened in Vietnam, and its happening now as our boys come back from Afghanistan and Iraq.

It greatly saddens us to see these soldiers try to cope with the abuse. They are only doing their job. A job in which the hippies aren't capable of doing. In these troubled times, war brings peace.

The idea of Civilian/Citizen came from a movie called 'Starship Troopers'. Even though its Sci-Fi, its message brings up some important values.

Naturally, hippies cannot know what it feels like to serve. The self sacrifice in giving up their civic freedom for a life of physical hardship and possible death. In knowing they are at least doing SOMETHING creates a great sense of self worth and pride in their country.

Mere civilians are developing into soft weak people who do not have any pride in their country, and/or government. You voted for them, deal with it.

Citizens see that if it wasn't for the diplomacy of our politicians we are creating a safety barrier around ourselves, securing our future. So what if this includes USA? They are one of the greatest military forces in existence (except for China). More so, our military forces have proved themselves both in an offensive (East Timor Liberation) and defensive (the holding off of the Japanese during World War II).

Military forces are the hidden hand in a game of political poker. Both need each other, politicians need the military to back them up. And the military need the politicians to hold them back when offensive force is not required.

In short, Citizens are people who have actually done something for their country and should have special privileges, such as voting. Civilians should have this right removed until they can prove their worth to society.

Flame ahoy!

So having a job and paying federal taxes is not supporting the country?

If this split means you don't have to pay taxes anymore, then I'd be all for it.

No it refers to the feeling of actually doing something ACTIVELY for your country. You would still have to pay taxes like a good person

you defined citizen wrong:

A person owing loyalty to and entitled by birth or naturalization to the protection of a state or nation.
A resident of a city or town, especially one entitled to vote and enjoy other privileges there.
A civilian.
A native, inhabitant, or denizen of a particular place: “We have learned to be citizens of the world, members of the human community” (Franklin D. Roosevelt).

The only problem that is present is that it is a double standard. The money that goes into supporting a country should already count as 'doing something' since without such there would be no government(in the long run). What about 'hippies' that have already done there time in service and are conscious objectors to the present situation. If there were no taxes of any kind imposed on those who 'simply' want to live a peaceful life, then perhaps, otherwise it is only right for all to be of an equal status since they are all working together to keep the system functional.

Down with IngSoc! Down with Big brother!

[edit on 15-9-2004 by Crysstaafur]

Where are these tree-hugging hippies you speak of abuseing the troops who came back? And what kind of abuse? Are you talking about now or the Vietnam era? Please don't "flame" me. I'd like to know if they are being abused.

Originally posted by Ezekial
No it refers to the feeling of actually doing something ACTIVELY for your country. You would still have to pay taxes like a good person

I assume that you are speaking of that crap movie about alien bugs (it's just not worth remembering the name). Paying taxes means slaving away at a job to get the money in order to pay taxes. If that is not 'supporting' the government, then nothing is.

Is this some thing out of Star Ship Troopers? Dosn't the Story also have a system like this?

Originally posted by elaine
Where are these tree-hugging hippies you speak of abuseing the troops who came back? And what kind of abuse? Are you talking about now or the Vietnam era? Please don't "flame" me. I'd like to know if they are being abused.

It's happened a fair bit in my area (Central Queensland, Australia). A large population of the RSL heros are even scared to march on ANZAC day.


Oh, and I actaully stated about halfway through my first post that it was from 'Star Ship Troopers'.

Ezekiel do your parents know you intend to take away their right to vote? Or are they in the military too?

I have'nt seen any kind of abuse of troops here in the U.S.
If there were it would be on all the news networks. The GOP would make sure of it.

Yes, they know. And they are happy for it to happen, for they are hippys. They sometimes wonder if I was switched at birth. Well, I was born in a town with a VERY large army base on it, you never know...

Oops, double post.

[edit on 15-9-2004 by Ezekial]

It's happened a fair bit in my area (Central Queensland, Australia). A large population of the RSL heros are even scared to march on ANZAC day.

Central Queensland? Are you talking Roma or something? Wouldn't
think there'd be too many hippies out there.
I would have thought that the road trains would have got any stray
ones anyway.

Starship troopers was a SATIRE of militarism. The whole point was that these people lived in an idiot society that was getting its (rear) kicked by bugs.

But to get to your idea...

The entire point of this country is that every member of it is a citizen with inalienable rights. It is based on the idea that these rights were not granted by the government but instead are a natural part of the existence of a free human being (right to free speech, religion, etc). A key aspect of the philosophy of the revolution was that PEOPLE GRANT THE GOVERNMENT POWER and that the GOVERNMENT DOES NOT GIVE THE PEOPLE THEIR RIGHTS. Therefore, if you want to do away with citizenship you'll have to do away with everything that the founding fathers and founding generation fought for...

...which reminds me of something: The revolution was a struggle between civilians with guns and a professional army that relied on a class system to maintain order. perhaps you'd feel more comfortable as a 1776 Redcoat, Ezekial?

Ultimately, if we lived in a society where you had to earn your citizenship there'd be no point in fighting for this country at all, because you would have reversed the cause of the American revolution.

And, so far as your dismissal of civilians who 'don't contribute anything'... Have you ever noticed that all the equipment the military uses to gain glory is funded by civilians and inspired by inventions american civilians cooked up. Sorry, but the Wright brothers, Thomas Edison, and Henry Ford were all civilians. Maybe the army can fight with swords and shields, though? Maybe it can pay for them with... pirated treasure?

Do you really think that America is great because it has a huge military? I hate to break it to you, but the reason America is great is because it has produced a vibrant, inventive culture. This culture is what pays for the military. Those civilians are who command the military that they pay for... don't forget that.

[edit on 15-9-2004 by onlyinmydreams]

[edit on 15-9-2004 by onlyinmydreams]

Originally posted by madhatter

It's happened a fair bit in my area (Central Queensland, Australia). A large population of the RSL heros are even scared to march on ANZAC day.

Central Queensland? Are you talking Roma or something? Wouldn't
think there'd be too many hippies out there.
I would have thought that the road trains would have got any stray
ones anyway.

Na mate, more like the beach towns where the hippies hide from the pollution.

onlyinmydreams I'm sorry if my first post didn't answer some things clearly. Here's a bit of an attempt to clear a few things up:

The segregation will only be a name thing. Civilians will still do what they usually do, free speech and all that. Citizens will have the ability to vote for change in a country they are actively working to help, instead of overthrow because of a popculture of harmony. Global peace will never happen - it's not my wish, it's just reality.

Originally posted by Ezekial

Originally posted by madhatter


onlyinmydreams I'm sorry if my first post didn't answer some things clearly. Here's a bit of an attempt to clear a few things up:

The segregation will only be a name thing. Civilians will still do what they usually do, free speech and all that. Citizens will have the ability to vote for change in a country they are actively working to help, instead of overthrow because of a popculture of harmony. Global peace will never happen - it's not my wish, it's just reality.

If people are expected to contribute to a society (pay taxes, hold jobs, etc) they should also have the right to control how that society is run. Otherwise you do not have a democracy... even if certain personal freedoms like free speech are maintained. And... do you really think that a completely militarized electorate would hesitate from eventually curtailing the rights of the civilians?

Also, what good would it do if you had freedom of speech but no way to participate in the political process? Would any freedom that was purely symbolic be worth having? Why would someone even bother to pay taxes? My guess is that the civilians in your world would rebel every twenty seconds or so.

But let's look at the pragmatical aspects of your plan...
Voting is about decision making. Do you really think that limited the number of people who can vote would generate a government that made better decisions? Do you really think that people who are conditioned to obey orders and follow strict protocols would be able to mentally adapt to changing world conditions? If you had a pool of decision makers that was entirely drawn from veterans and active duty military... you'd have very few original decisions/ideas.

Let's face it: Your plan would lower the average level of education for the electorate. How could that help the country? Yes, i know that military educates its members... the problem, though, is that such 'educations' almost always center on vocational, entry-level training. Being able to fix the wiring on a tank is all well and good, but it hardly makes one better qualified to regulate a nation than having a four year degree at a civilian college and private sector experience (one of the ironies of your plan is that legal and political scholars with PhDs would not be able to vote while some guy who specialized in fixing tank treads would).

Oh... and there's one last problem: The opportunity to become a citizen would be limited. This would be because not everyone would be able to find a spot in the military. There simply wouldn't be enough positions available. Therefore a large portion of the society would be deprived of even having the chance to become citizens. And if you just expanded the military... you'd destroy the country with the financial burden. Think of North Korea.

NOTE: The above comments are mine (OIMD)... I edited something in a way that made them appear in the citation box. Since there are no *quote* lines below my text I don't know why this is.

[edit on 15-9-2004 by onlyinmydreams]

The idea of Citizen vs Civilian was originally a part of the basis for Robert Hienliens novel 'Starship Troopers', of which the movie was a very poor rip off by a NAZI worshiping Dutchman who never read the book. If a system like that were to be implemented, the number of 'citizens' would drop like a rock every time there was a war.

I suggest you read the book. Forget the movie, it was a waste of film.

note: my comments above weren't intended to appear in the citation box

Na mate, more like the beach towns where the hippies hide from the pollution.

Okay I'm assuming your in Townsville
Yeah I got a few mates in Hervey Bay, I lived in Brisbane for a few years.
I didn't think there'd be too many Hippies out in Roma or Charleville.
cheers