3 Things about Islam

Originally posted by superman2012

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America

The government should start by being a good role model, and follow it's own declaration before expecting others to, don't you think
No wonder american civilians are so divided.
I would like to add that Islam has no allegiance to foreign countries
(unlike judaism) Islam only has a declaration to the God of Abraham.

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reply to post by superman2012


Yeah, Western culture was supposedly made by a bunch of white guys. So what? Whether my culture is white, black, or Martian is not the issue.

If rednecks started to migrate over to Japan for some strange reason, then I would expect the Japanese to resist if we all set up in the middle of Tokyo and started demanding entire neighborhoods be held to our rules instead of Japanese law; I would expect them to be offended and resistant if we rednecks tried to live in the middle of Tokyo but absolutely refused to adhere to common Japanese law or financial customs. They would probably count us as disrespectful to their culture and way of life and wonder why we bothered to come to their country if we were going to refuse to actually abide by its rules. And rightly so.

I have no problem with any and all Muslims who want to abide by the secular law of the U.S. living next door to me.

Thing is, they themselves, by the own actions, deem that they want to live apart...by demanding a separate system of law and financial transactions.

I don't have a problem with them bringing their culture. I enjoy the architecture, have heard that many are every bit as superstitious about ghosts as me, and highly respect the care with which they treat their dead. But demanding to abide by a different rule of law and different financial rules creates a situation where they are demanding to live in a fundamentally different social order than the rest of the country.

I have no problems with them being separate. What I'm saying is that if they want to be separate, then they should be separate.

Because to live in an area surrounded by those who adhere to secular law while they demand to live by another, for them to live in this place and go so far as to declare their neighborhood to be under that different rule of law, creates a situation where you have a town with two sets of laws. You have a town with two standards, and what amounts to two political zones; this creates disunity and puts undo difficulty on the city in creating rules and regulations. Undo difficulty in citizens trying to obey the law and police trying to properly function in their duties.

And as I've said, them being so eager to live smack-dab in the middle of a secular society while refusing to be apart of that society doesn't make sense. It's like a bunch of Amish going to live in the middle of San Francisco; aka suspicious.

And on top of everything else, it's simply not fair to those whose cultures are vastly different than the norm and live away from everybody else. Those people have the common sense and decency to know the presence of their culture is only going to create problems; that these Muslims demand different treatment is demanding special privileges.

Bottom line: If they're so determined to be separate and distinct, then let them be separate and distinct.

reply to post by nusnus


Fair enough. Thank you for taking the time to address it and inject logic and reason into the situation

First of all let me say that I just looked through this thread and have not watched the video. I am just responding to the OP's words and responses I have seen.

I have to say that I agree with the OP on this, and will even take it a step further. He says that if people move here and want their own legal system then they have to have their own separate communities. I say screw that, if you come to this country and you don't like the laws then go the hell back where you came from. I believe that no one has the right to demand their own court system because our laws don't coincide with their own cultural beliefs.

The OP never mentioned anything about holidays, or disregarding a persons culture. What was said is that if you move here then you live by the laws here plain and simple. I absolutely think that muslims, jews, and anyone else has a right to observe their native holidays and customs as long as they are within the confines of U.S. law.

If you disagree with the OP and feel that people should be able move here and live by whatever law suits them then say so, and give your reasons but leave your ignorant.. err.. race card in your wallet because this has nothing to do with race.

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Same old same old, the catholic church has their own rules,
practicing jews have their own rules, mormons have theirs,
muslims have theirs, . . . as if any of that will ever change,
is highly unlikely.
For each their own, this is what makes this planet so great,
(except when force is used)


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I seen an Islamic temple here in florida it was really beautiful, better looking than a church building. I want billions of them here in America. I want Sharia law. Maybe can can replace all these churches into something more peaceful and beautiful.

reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck


I could go into an anecdote about how I actually visited a Mosque and had a discussion with three Muslim men and how they seemed normal but I won't... oh wait, I did.

On the one hand you're partially right, at least about the fact that Islam hasn't been watered down the way Christianity was. However there are plenty of normal, peaceful Western Muslims who fit in fairly well with our culture and DON'T want Sharia brought in. You can't really BLAME those that do want Sharia law (keep in mind there are a great many different interpretations of Sharia) since America is paranoid and prejudice about Muslims they aren't exactly WELCOMED openly into our culture. Need we be reminded of the whole "GROUND ZERO MOSQUE" fiasco where if that had been a church two blocks from the WTC site no one would have batted so much as an eye?

Islam hasn't had as much time to adapt but it's getting there and personally, at least here in America, is a lot less dangerous than Christianity (Christian terrorism takes place in America far more often than Muslim terrorism).

reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck


So you are saying that the Jew ghettos were ok? The ghettos were used to isolate them from the rest of society, and then under Hitler were used as collection points for deportation to death camps. It started out as isolation due to religious practices.

Jewish ghettos in Europe existed because Jews were viewed as alien due to being a cultural minority and due to their non-Christian beliefs in a Renaissance Christian environment. As a result, Jews were placed under strict regulations throughout many European cities.

First off, the video you posted, and this entire discussion, have already occurred numerous times on ATS. One example:
3 things everyone needs to know about ISLAM....,
That is to say: the video is total bunk.

Secondly, since the major thrust of your thread seems to be about the legal aspect of this thing, and you specifically bring up Jews not behaving like this several times, it seems you are majorly out of the loop with regard to that specific point.

I take it you've never heard of Beth Din of America? It's been around since the 60s, and nobody made any fuss back then. They handle family law, divorce, inheritance, financial disputes, etc. specifically for Jews.

PS: It is a little bit of self-promotion, but you might like to go through this thread:
The Shariah Conspiracy

Jizyah Tax
Jizyah is a bias tax. Non-Muslims living in Islamic societies are forced to pay the jizyah tax for being a non-believer.


Just this tax alone should be enough to tell Muslims that they deserve as much equality as they allow to non-Muslims. A tax based on religious superiority? Wow...

reply to post by nusnus


Are you going to tell us that Iran interprets Sharia the same way Saudi Arabia does?

Isn't this part of the problem in the Middle East?

Justice served loudly in Shafia honour killings case
news.sympatico.ca...

news.sympatico.ca...

if nothing else,,it offers an insight into different belief systems.


Me.

Justice served loudly in Shafia honour killings case

"30/01/2012 8:32:00 AM
by Monica Bugajski
Jurors found Mohammad Shafia, his wife, and son guilty of four counts of first-degree murder. And by doing so, our system brought justice to the four women they murdered."

reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck


A well presented video. On one hand I think it's rather one sided, on the other, I don't blame him or her. Like the quran, The Bible and The Torah, The Quran is NOT literal in every verse, it's a well known fact. There are verses that are literal for the time or era they were written. As a muslim born and brought up in the UK, I think it's a shame, as both muslims and the media have equal blame in this. I feel through the study I have taken over many years my realisation boils down to this, Just like The Torah and The Bible, The Quran was revealed many hundreds of years ago, although many say that the original Bible and Torah texts are gone, the Quran has remained in it's original COMPILED form. What I mean is that when The Quran was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), because he was illiterate, he had to repeat it to his family so it could be written down and then compiled into the book we now know as The Quran. Many children are sent to schools to learn the quran so that the message does not get lost, as is of The Bible and The Torah.

If you look at many a different Bible and Torah, you will find differences, but remember they are either remakes or translations. Translations differ due to the translators understanding of the language, experience, igorance and AGENDA. Some of you out there are headbutting walls out there after the comment I've just made, so sit tight, THE QURAN HAS THE SAME PROBLEM! If YOU don't know the translated language, you're not going to know the difference. YES, many translations have been manipulated to suit agendas and to indocrinate people, non-muslims and muslims are dying because of it. Interlect plays a huge part, and as many verses have esoteric/hidden meanings, not everyone is going to find it's correct meanings. Think of a dot, you are ten metres away from, move closer, it becomes a bigger dot, closer still, it's a ball, closer and it's a ball of wool, closer still and get to see the fibres of the strings that make the ball of wool, but it still a dot those those who haven't experienced what you have.
Here in the UK there are islamic schools that teach there pupils that if you see a muslim man and his beard is shorter than a fistful is to be treated exactly the same as the non-muslims. Question, what happens to a black man(no racism intended) who's facial hair takes a very long time to grow and may never grow longer than a fistful?
In Saudi Arabia, there is a massive movement which is generally called by others as the Wahabbi which began in NADJ in Saudi Arabia by a man named Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, born in 1703, who helped establish the first Saudi state, who with his followers killed countless people who did not convert to Islam, who sent muslims to redo their compulsory pilgrammage to Mecca if they had previously followed a different path of islam, and also claim the quran is to be taken LITERALLY. Although he passed away in 1792, his following and violent teachings are ever growing, the fact that that the US, UK and other EU countries are going to war with arab nations is fueling a very big fire.
Even the The Holy Prophet PBUH warned us already, in the hadith,"O Allaah bestow your blessings on our Shaam. O Allaah bestow your blessings on our Yemen." The people said, "O Messenger of Allaah, and our Najd." I think the third time the Prophet, sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam, said, "There (in NADJ)(note the birthplace of the movement above) will occur earthquakes, trials and tribulations, and from their appears the Horn of Satan." Sahih Bukhari Volume 2, Book 17, Number 147
You see, nobody will tell you about the time The Holy Prophet recieved 60 Christians into his own mosque, let them eat, drink, sleep and PRAY in his mosque, Google "TREATY OF NAJRAN".
Nobody will tell you about the fact that most of jihad or war quoted in it's proper meaning is a war with one's self(Spiritual) hence the meaning of Islam, Submission, a muslim's goal is for the hereafter, not in this present materialistic life. And did anyone tell you this,Suicide Bombers who believe that they will recieve 70 VIRGINS have a few problems.

1. SUICIDE - is NOT allow under ANY circumstances, it suggests of no faith in Allah.
2. VIRGINS - are for MARTYRS DEFENDING their relgion.
3. AND - again it's down to translation..... they are not virgins as such....it's because "Virgin" is the closest a human can imagine in one word. It's companions of PURETY, they haven't even heard a swear word, they don't know what dirt is, possibly close to angelic.
These suicide bombers have been brainwashed, just like many a muslim and non-muslim alike. Real and pure Islam is hard to find and takes an extremely long time, in this age it's near impossible.
I do fear I'll labeled a liar, for which there is nothing can do. Peace to Humanity.

reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck


And I'm no scholar so I can't justify every rule there is, I am just pointing out, that not all that you read is true, but it is hard to dispell every lie or misinterpretation there is, but you can't just pick up the Quran, read it and that's it. Some have read it countless times and still don't know it's true meanings, I also believe the Bible and Torah were just the same. Alot of so called laws actually derive from cultural acts rather than religious. Lastly, I apologise if I have offended anyone and ask for your forgiveness. My goal was not to offend but to offer my thoughts. I believe that everyone has the right to live their lives as they please and to choose their opinions, but I do also believe that falsehood has it's consequences, which will be revealed when we stand before god, which includes myself as I am no angel, never have been. Once again peace to all, and success in all good that you do.

reply to post by rsfx247


Hello there brother. I am an ex-Salafi Muslim (Wahabi). I left Islam when I realized that no All Knowing or All Powerful God would allow slavery, wife beating, value a woman's word at half of a man's, Jizyah tax on non-Muslims, etc.

The corruption of the Qur'an is DEEPER than bias or incorrect translation. You know that Arabic is written in only root consonant letters? You know that the vowels are added as diacritical marks? Well, did you know that the written Qur'an was never written with vowel markers until much, much later in history. In fact, there are multiple Arabic Qur'ans that disagree about the proper vowels! The truth is, NO ONE knows the true Qur'an anymore.

On top of that, the Qur'an was written not only in 'classical Arabic,' but it was also written in a few different dialects all mixed together. The Caliph Uthman even noticed the varying dialects of the Qur'an and he set out to standardize it.

Different vowels... different dialects... the Qur'an was corrupted the moment Muhammad died. This is a secret many sheikhs do not like to talk about.

reply to post by Deetermined


No, Iran and Saudi Arabia do not interpret ANYTHING the way they're supposed to.

Saudi Arabia is a riddle on its own since I doubt they even understand the gist of the message of Islam, if they had, they wouldn't have any of the current labor laws that force foreigners to take Saudi sponsors (modern version of slavery since you cannot even leave the city you're in unless your sponsor signs a paper saying you can), or the whole "lets apply our rules and regs to everyone BUT the Royal Family and let them get away with every little indecency they can muster" thing.

Islam is not organized religion, and it literally took down the organized government that was established by the Quraish tribes ( the most powerful one at the time). And since the Prophet Muhammad did not establish an organized government after the tribes came to Islam, this tells me that both organized government and organized religion where men are slaves to men are against the whole nature of Islam.

Therefore, let me repeat this again, neither Iran nor Saudi Arabia understand these little nuances in history. Or maybe they do and they don't want to apply them?

reply to post by nusnus


Thanks for your input.

So, in your opinion, is there any region of the world that you feel is practicing a truer form of Islam over others? Or do you feel that there's an equal balance of true interpretation versus false interpretation everywhere?

reply to post by Sahabi


Hello Brother, I mean no disrepect by this, admittedly when I read that you had left Islam, I felt a little sad, but upon reading that you ex-salafi, i am not surprised. I must also admit that I have had doubts abouts several aspects over the years, but after the research that I have done, my following is much simpler. I think that islam is distorted somewhat, but I wouldn't think it would go back as far as The Holy Prophets death, and there is of course there is a golden question that remains unanswered, of all the acts and sayings of the holy prophet, I am still trying to search for one relating to his death. The Salafi/Wahabi movements have used their 'oil money' to devestating effect to promote their doctrine. Their favourite is that 'Muhammad was just a man', it is their opinion, but I would expect from somebody who has no knowledge of islam, but it's a claim of those who believe that they are the righteous ones. The Holy Prophet PBUH is mentioned in the athan, declaration of faith, salat (at least once in every second rakat) and many other islamic acts, but to the salafi, he is just a man. The Salafi/Wahabi seem to praise themselves more than the Holy Prophet, yet he was the one who willingly took on the task to try to guide humanity.

Brother, the way I see it is this, I believe in Allah and the prophets including including Adam, Jesus, Moses, Solomon, David, and Muhammad and many others and may peace be upon them all. If one chooses not to believe, then that is their choice, Allah has given us the freedom of choice. I treat everyone the same, Muslim/Non-muslim alike. Nobody is perfect, we all have our own negative aspects, so why we can just accept that we are all different and always will be, my relationship with god is my business and has almost no bearing on the way I am around others, I hear the sound of Wahabi sharpening their swords as I write this, but I have more non-muslim friends than muslim, because they are mainly more tolerant respecting my beliefs. Your behaviour towards others is key, muslim or non-muslim, respect them as you wish to be respected, and if they don't, leave them be, you would only go after them because your ego is hurt. The Salafi/Wahabi and other movements have removed the majority of the spiritual aspects of islam and the reason that they haven't removed them all, is because they haven't realised the spiritual connection yet. After all, according to the Islamic belief system are we not just parading around earth in flesh only to be judged by our actions for the eternal hereafter? And if we are spirits, so to speak, where is the spirituality gone? Did the Holy Prophet not meditate and reflect on creation in the cave which then lead to the revelation? There is the Hadith Riyad-as-saliheen published by darusalam, Saudi Arabia which has according to rumour, around 2000 hadith removed, because it doesn't tie in with their agenda. The same publishers send FREE qurans with their translations to poorer countries who none the wiser, and they hold the Arabs in high respect, but just think if they deliberately omitted hadith, what have they done to the Quran. I think that the real Islam exists but in small numbers, keeping a low profile, so they are not pursecuted.

With Islam in the state that it is in today, with all the other religions, which have the headlines are all corrupted in some way including islam, which leads to no suprise that more and more choose not to believe in god.

I once again forward my apologies to you brother, and anyone else who has found anything offensive which I have written, and please reply so that I may learn as the journey of knowledge never ends. Peace to humanity.

reply to post by Deetermined


In terms of governments, no I do not believe any single government currently in power has any idea what they need to be doing.

If they were to go back to history and look at the way the Prophet governed his people, they would all loathe to put themselves in such a position simply because it takes a lot of courage, a lot of unification, a lot of love and a lot of work to pull off what he did.

He united the tribes, then took their consent to be their leader. Notice I said consent. The form of consent they used to use was a simple handshake. There was no forcing or enforcing of any kind. No one was made king, no one was above the law and in the event of a war, the leader would be the first to go into battle. I mean, those were the good old days.

Then came this whole concept of government where people are limited in every which way, where taxes are imposed, where passports are required, where laws are made not by the people but by the governors. So the world we live in now, is an ugly, despicable place. Some might say its necessary since the number of humans have increased as much, but can you see a single government leader give up his/her rights of leadership and say: 'We don't need a government, the people can govern themselves!' ?