3 Things about Islam

I've got to admit, this video disturbed me a little bit.



The thing about it is, I know that many Eastern religions hold with a lot of balance and relatively peaceful principles. I know that Christianity has been through the ringer with a heavy dosage of classic philosophy and Western ideals to calm it down. Not only that, but I also know that it's been riddled with spells of pure crazy like the Inquisition that only the fringe nutjobs would ever wish to revisit.

But I know of nothing in Islam that has this sobering affect, and I know nothing in the experience of Islam as a whole that would generate a desire to avoid the type of religious zealotry that brings on things like the Crusades. I know that I see people who are ardent in their faith, and this only disturbs me more. My experience is that people who are very ardent in their faith tend to be idealogical purists and have a propensity for zealotry.

Frankly, cries of bigotry and all that don't really phase me, nor should they. I hate to be this way, but most of the time, I hear about these folks refusing to really blend in with Western society, demanding their own special courts and neighborhood rules (aka refusing to adapt to Western culture even though they live in a Western country, thereby being very disrespectful). Moving to a place and then demanding your own special little quarantine is extremely disrespectful to the culture of your new home IMO. It's kind of hard to trust people and respect them when they do stuff like that.

The bottom line is that I'm looking for some logic and sanity to be injected into the situation. What am I missing?

Edit: I suppose I'm only going to get responses of how I'm a bigot for being unwilling to tolerate a culture that has a tendency to be disrespectful of mine from what I've seen.

If there is a logical reason that I shouldn't be suspicious of Muslims, like maybe that the reports of them asking for special privileges are overblown or that this video is actually misconstruing verses of the Muslim holy book, then I would be glad to listen to that.

... A beautiful little thing called politically correct.

reply to post by kimish


I'm not interested in being politically correct. I'm interested in the truth of the situation.

Moving to a place and then demanding your own special little quarantine is extremely disrespectful to the culture of your new home IMO.

Perhaps you should look at what forms USA. Here is a great answer.

Contrary to common belief, America is actually not a 'melting pot'. America is a 'salad bowl'.
A melting pot implies that people who come into the society assimilate and adopt the standard of their new adopted society, contributing something along the way. A salad bowl implies that you hold onto your culture even after you arrive, and don't take on the characteristics of the new society, so that you have a mixture of a lot of different things, but you can still tell them apart like in a salad. Cheese fondue is made up of lots of different ingredients but you can't point and say "there's the white wine" the way you can say "there's the tomatoes and there's the celery" in a salad. Another way of looking at America as a 'salad bowl' is because there are 'China Towns', 'Korea Towns', 'Little Ethiopia' to name a few. If you walk into 'China Town' (especially in San Francisco) it's like you almost really are in China itself.

If the USA really wanted a melting pot, it would outlaw all previous and held thoughts about another persons culture/heritage/beliefs/religion when they were made American citizens.

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.

Nothing in there that they have to "act" western. The greatest part of America, is that you can be a distinctly unique American. Unfortunately, people forget the part that everyone here is an immigrant at one point in time.

Maybe they will one day have the power to go into a country and impose their will..instead of asking for special provisions. You know, kind of like the western nations do.

Peace

reply to post by superman2012


Last time I checked, they're the only culture routinely demanding tolerance for separate court systems, separate financial systems (aka no usury), and random rules that apply on in their neighborhoods.

If they wanted to do this kind of thing and were willing to live away from the rest of the society like the Amish do, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but they don't do this.

Originally posted by AnIntellectualRedneck
reply to post by superman2012

 

Last time I checked, they're the only culture routinely demanding tolerance for separate court systems, separate financial systems (aka no usury), and random rules that apply on in their neighborhoods.

If they wanted to do this kind of thing and were willing to live away from the rest of the society like the Amish do, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but they don't do this.

Right, and being American citizens, they have that right, just as you do if you have cause. Why do they have to live away from everyone? If people have a problem with them, maybe they should move.

"They do this" because it tears our infrastructure down. TPTB lick their chops at that thought so they arrogantly ignore it. The Politically correct way

I agree with your point. They should assimilate or give them their own little town Like a China town. But, would everyone feel safe with the idea of a LIttle Iraq or Pakistan town? (rhetorical)? I don't think so so that maybe why we don't see Little Arabias in the bigger cities.

reply to post by superman2012


Because I believe in one rule of law for all. Having such radically different rules and expectations for one group when they're living in the midst of everybody else spreads discord and makes it difficult for a complex society to function.

Oh, and because them coming to a Western country with Western traditions, a Western culture, and a Western way of law and demanding that they get an entirely different system is disrespectful to the culture and country of their new home. The law of the land applies to everybody. Period. If they can't handle that, then they can form their own group away from other people who are willing to live by that law.

The hijab thing doesn't really bother me, the praying five times a day is whatever, but you cross the line when you start demanding entirely different legal rules in the name of culture. Everybody else that has this type of thing has the decency to live away from the majority who adhere to the norms of the land. There are several different groups who exist within the U.S. that have this sort of system that live away from everybody else in their own little deal; for Muslims to have the same thing while living in the middle of towns and cities is unfair to those groups and is nothing but being demanding of special privileges in the name of culture tolerance.

Originally posted by AnIntellectualRedneck
reply to post by superman2012

 

Because I believe in one rule of law for all. Having such radically different rules and expectations for one group when they're living in the midst of everybody else spreads discord and makes it difficult for a complex society to function.

Oh, and because them coming to a Western country with Western traditions, a Western culture, and a Western way of law and demanding that they get an entirely different system is disrespectful to the culture and country of their new home. The law of the land applies to everybody. Period. If they can't handle that, then they can form their own group away from other people who are willing to live by that law.

The hijab thing doesn't really bother me, the praying five times a day is whatever, but you cross the line when you start demanding entirely different legal rules in the name of culture. Everybody else that has this type of thing has the decency to live away from the majority who adhere to the norms of the land. There are several different groups who exist within the U.S. that have this sort of system that live away from everybody else in their own little deal; for Muslims to have the same thing while living in the middle of towns and cities is unfair to those groups and is nothing but being demanding of special privileges in the name of culture tolerance.

edit on 28-1-2012 by AnIntellectualRedneck because: (no reason given)

So I take it you are against Affirmative Action? The "western" country with western traditions, western culture and a western way of law were all taken from other countries, where people were living and came to, you guessed it, America. You are not a bigot. You just don't know how your country came to be made. So Jewish people are out of line for wanting days off for their holidays? Take a look at other religious holidays. These were the first I got from New Jersey. So what does it boil down to? White or go home? Christian or go home? American or go home? You allow people to become American and then want them to behave the same as you? What ethnic background is American? No, not a bigot, but definitely ignorant.

Edit:

If there is a logical reason that I shouldn't be suspicious of Muslims, like maybe that the reports of them asking for special privileges are overblown or that this video is actually misconstruing verses of the Muslim holy book, then I would be glad to listen to that.

Don't take the easy way out, do some research yourself. A YT video is not research, it is one persons viewpoint.

reply to post by spav5


Had I my way, my country would never darken the land of any nation again, whether it be for military support or military conquering.

Unfortunately, I live in a country where the aristocracy (aka government officials and lobbyists) is insistent upon gorging on as much war as it can possibly muster while sending the Proles off to die in foreign lands. Oh, and my countrymen are brainwashed enough to believe that we should risk our own necks over the ever-aggressive and usually instigating Israel.

reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck
You and I don't agree on much, but in this case, we do. It takes courage to actually state what is going on in the world today.

My first experience with middle east culture started in the 70's when the Shah was diposed and suddenly, my school in London was now half Iranian.
Not that it mattered much, I made friends with many, and learned a great deal about the culture.
I invited one friend over for a sleep-over one weekend and the friend and his parents showed up at the house with gifts!
It is a beautiful culture, rich in history and tradition.

It is also a culture that thinks the Crusades was yesterday. It is a culture that places a different value on human life. It is a culture that places a different value on religion.

Kudos and S&F

reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck


This is basically what I've thought of Islam, although my thoughts were not based on their bible as they now are. One thing that I differ with is your idea of a melting pot...I've always thought it meant inter-breeding of all nations to form a whole new race of persons.

reply to post by superman2012


It boils down to: this is a Western country with a Western law system. Our rules are based on secular law, our financial system operates with usury. The law of the land is based upon secular law that everybody has to adhere to. Those who refuse to accept this are still welcome, but, for the stability of society, they should not live amongst those who do.

There's a big difference between Jews wanting to celebrate different holidays and take those off and a Muslim wanting to have to abide by an entirely different legal system.

Little things are okay, but refusing to abide by fundamentals like our shared legal and financial systems is completely and totally unacceptable.

Again, if they want to be this separate from the rest of society, that is fine. But everybody else seems to understand that doing that while living in the midst of those who adhere to the common culture and law systems will only cause problems for both parties. They wish to exist in a separate culture, and so they separate themselves. It is highly suspicious, and quite disrupting to the community at large, that Muslims who wish to live by such a different culture and rule of law do not do the same.


And, by the way, I am against Affirmative Action. I say this as a female in the Bible Belt. Discrimination I am not fond of and should be punished severely; reverse discrimination to "level the playing field" is pure garbage. Why? Because positive discrimination is still discrimination.

Originally posted by superman2012

So I take it you are against Affirmative Action?

Ahhh words painted pink to hide the fact that are indeed insidious.

You like discrimination, it appears.

reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck


So Native Americans should leave too according to you?

Originally posted by mainidh

Originally posted by superman2012

So I take it you are against Affirmative Action?

Ahhh words painted pink to hide the fact that are indeed insidious.

You like discrimination, it appears.

Insidious? No. I am against Affirmative action. Any thread that I have posted on I have been quick to point this out. I believe in true equality. I might be arguing more than I usually would on this thread only because it is singling out a particular group. Don't think you can understand me because of an argument.

reply to post by superman2012


No. Because Native Americans who wish to live in their traditional manner and exist by tribal law tend to take advantage of a thing called a reservation. From my experience and knowledge, those who don't want to live by Western rules and laws and live in the common culture that exists in the U.S. tend to have the common sense to separate themselves from it.

Much like the Amish. Much like those Mormons who still practice polygamy.

reply to post by AnIntellectualRedneck

Anyways, I see there is no getting to you. I understand what you are saying, but, these people chose to live apart from your "white" err "western" society. You are suggesting that the Islamic people be forced to live apart and their culture be ignored. Why not close the borders and immigration then?

Its been a while since I've logged onto ATS to actually post a comment, then again, I didn't really feel the need to, until now.

First off I should congratulate you on finding a video that actually deserves some kind of explanation in terms of 'educating' the public about Islam.

Second, I should inform you that I'm an educated woman, in her 30's, having grown up in Saudi Arabia and educated under Sharia itself, know very well what the rules and regulations are. Not a single Muslim user on here would come around and point a finger at what I'd have to say because well, I've done my homework and know exactly what I'm talking about.

I'd like to address these 3 things that incite worry in Westerners such as yourself, and the way the video put it, I don't blame you one bit. It actually worried me a tad as well. If I hadn't known my own religion I'd be doubting it seriously right now.

The first bit in the video was kind of vague actually, I mean, whats it trying to say? that Muslims believe the entire Quran but take the more violent ones to heart because they're newer? What nonsense is that? Honestly, in all my years of education under Saudi Sharia I've never come across a single person telling me to take the more violent ones to heart because they were newer. There is no such thing, it does not exist. Well, when you watch a video that doesn't cite sources you're bound to come across BS like this.

Anyway, if its at all going to calm your 'worries', you should be happy to know that violent verses that specifically order the Prophet and the Muslims to get up and fight were meant for a specific time and specific place. They are neither generalized rules or among the 5 top tenets of the religion. Unlike Christianity, Islam has 5 tenets that are obligatory for EVERY Muslim, to live and perform in order for them to be even considered MUSLIMS in the first place.

These are:
1.Verbal pronunciation of 'shahada', sort of like a promise that one believes in God and His messengers and His books and angels.
2. Daily prayers
3. Fasting during Ramadan
4. Giving alms
5. Pilgrimage to Mecca (for those who are physically and financially capable)

Now, do you actually see ANYTHING else in this list? This should suffice to break the all scary 'creeping Sharia' paranoia currently taking over the Western world, but it doesn't does it? Probably because people see in others what they see in themselves. Islam is not a missionary religion, it does not feel the need to go into other peoples lands, kick their butt, and forcefully convert any of them. It is a religion where people AGREE to be ruled by the same law that God says they should be ruled by. They are not forced into anything, they agree to it. Thats why so many people want Sharia courts where they live now because they want their daily issues resolved the way they agreed to. However, this does not make them immune to the law of the land. This also does not mean they will force anyone who is not a Muslim to take up Sharia law either.

Coming to the second point. Most people who don't know what Sharia is, would be easily fooled by this. Let me enlighten you a bit. Sharia law takes its basics from the Quran and the Prophets own life, HOWEVER, there are only a handful 'open laws' in the Quran. And since Islam does address the entire scope of a persons daily life, there needs to be more than just a bunch of laws to govern people with am I right? God made Sharia in such a way that the rest of those laws, almost the majority of them, would be updated, depending on the circumstance and the time in which people were living in. Because apart from those 'basic rules', the rest is meant to be developed by the leading board of Sharia counsellors. What does that mean for you? It just means people will develop required laws dependent on the circumstances and the needs of the era they live in. Oh and here's the best bit, although Muslims are required to take heed to what the local counsel advises, they are not required by God to obey them. Since unlike what Christianity or Judaism has become over thousands of years, Islam is not organized religion. There are no men responsible for leading it, there are also no men who are at the head of it. Again, a Muslim is only required to do what he or she deems necessary according to their own conscience. Its all very personal.
Edit: I'd like to add something here to avoid confusion. Muslims do not have to obey the Sharia counsel, but they do have to obey the court if and when they break a law and are taken into custody. Basically, the rules of Sharia can only be practiced at court.

Last but not least, taqiyya. Historically speaking, taqiyya is something the Shi'a practice and encourage. There are no historical accounts of the Prophet EVER practicing it. He was an exemplary man, honest to the bone, before and after he discovered he was the last messenger. However, the majority sect of Muslims, i.e. the Sunni's believe you can only practice taqiyya and hide your faith if you are faced with death alone.

God I know this is all very boring stuff, but then again, you asked for it

Hope that helps.