Gaddafi loyalists take back Bani Walid

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by Freeborn
Well, none of us predicted this did we.

Libya has the potential to be at least as screwed up as Iraq.

True.

However, Iraq does have some semblance of a semi functioning Government and I think China [Which was awarded the right to develop the largest untapped fields] came out ahead of everybody.

Libya on the other hand is in total Chaos.

That's why I believe Libya could turn out worse than Iraq. It all depends though.
If the people of Libya can remain peaceful and diplomatic and make concessions with the other parties involved, if compromises can be made, than we could see peaceful resolution and the organization and formation of a new legitimate governing body.

However I must admit, I have my doubts.

Look at us here in the Westernized nations, we are at each other's throats over politics every day. The only reason things haven't become vicious and extreme is because we have the 'overwhelming force' of the government to keep us from trampling upon each other.

They don't have anything like that holding the back though. So what is to stop them? Rationality, logic, friendship or kindness?

I must admit I have my doubts.

I am merely speculating based upon what I do know and with acknowledgement that we have no up-to-date recent data about the ongoing crises or situation unfolding there. I really wish we did have some credible news information but it is lacking.

I think that pro-Caddafi forces will be there for long time. There are tribes that were loyal to the end, Caddafi family has money to enlist more people, economy that was very good relative to the area before the revolution deteriorated thus leading some people to join the forces they associate with "good old times".
Of course ,the main reasons for this comeback:
1) rebel forces were never united. And when common foe is dead the arguements about whose group gets the best parts of cake are more important then fighting remnants of enemies.
2) NATO air/navy/ground? support is no longer available. And nobody can keep 12000 US soldiers deployed a secret.

reply to post by muzzleflash


Yeah, Libya is one screwed up place.

A few of us here on ATS predicted exactly this scenario.

There are religious, political, tribal and racial differences that run deep in Libya.
Gadaffi somehow managed to keep a lid on it, probably due to him overseeing Libya grow from one of the poorest countries in the world when he took power to it having one of the highest standards of living anywhere in the world.
The people enjoyed an excellent quality of life, especially when compared to it's neighbours etc.

As I have stated in other treads I think most of the major 'western' governments would have been happy maintaining the status quo.
They had developed an understanding with Gadaffi who had long since ceased being the sponsor of international terrorism and some countries had began investing in the Libyan infrastructure as well as the oil industry.

I really don't know what caused them to side with a mish mash mixture of rebels who only had an intense dislike in Gadaffi in common and support their overthrow of a stable regime.
Anyone with even a basic and rudimentary understanding of Libya, it's people and history could foretell this happening.
And now we are committed to protecting 'our' interests in the Libyan oil fields.

It's just a complete mess and will only result in the deaths of thousands and misery for millions.

And for what?

One thing that I have learnt that MAY shed some light on things is that Libya used to be a creditor nation to other African nations...it has now become indebted to IMF and other international banking organisations.
In adddition those African nations that previously went to Libya now have little option but to go to either one of the international financial institutions or China.

Maybe something, maybe nothing?

Originally posted by muzzleflash
That's why I believe Libya could turn out worse than Iraq. It all depends though.
If the people of Libya can remain peaceful and diplomatic and make concessions with the other parties involved, if compromises can be made, than we could see peaceful resolution and the organization and formation of a new legitimate governing body.

However I must admit, I have my doubts.

Continuing with the speculation and elaborating further...

The last thing the EU needs is a basket case [Which is primarily their bastard child] on their southern doorsteps. Which bring me to your next contribution below...

Look at us here in the Westernized nations, we are at each other's throats over politics every day. The only reason things haven't become vicious and extreme is because we have the 'overwhelming force' of the government to keep us from trampling upon each other.

Agreed.

I am merely speculating based upon what I do know and with acknowledgement that we have no up-to-date recent data about the ongoing crises or situation unfolding there. I really wish we did have some credible news information but it is lacking.

This is why it is paramount not to run with every [Unconfirmed report] as if it's manna from heaven as has been the case with the "12,000 US troops from Malta" speculation that some [So Called News outlets] have released.


IMHO....

reply to post by Freeborn


Thanks to you Freeborn, Slayer, and the others for the good responses.

This is becoming a really interesting discussion.

Thanks Slayer for bringing it back up again, this topic really needs to be looked at more closely and there are many issues we need to address.

I find it sort of shocking that this all happened within the last year and yet this week in the MSM there hasn't really been any discussion of it.

So thankfully you folks here at ATS are keeping the subject alive. It is very important.

I don't really want to take this off topic but I have been very curious about the situation in Algeria and what is going on there.

I went and looked around for some information on news in Algeria but came across this story about what happened recently in Libya just yesterday:

Protesters shake up Libyan interim govt

Libya's postwar transitional government faced a political crisis Sunday after protesters ransacked its offices in Benghazi, highlighting growing nationwide unease with its leadership and triggering a shake-up in which the government's deputy chief resigned and several members were suspended.

Looks like our speculations were on the mark about the chaos unfolding in Libya politically.

The reasons I was investigating Algeria are pretty obvious, considering it borders Tunisia and Libya, I expect there to be some possible spill over effects. I find it strange that the situation has remained very quiet in relation to Algeria in the midst of all of this turmoil and conflict.

I will look deeper into the Algerian aspects and see what I can come up with. I recall that Algeria was swamped with refugees from Libya but I have seen no updates on what became of these misplaced peoples or their fate.

More important stories from Libya, I don't know about the credibility or sources of these articles but it does appear to be fairly mainstream so I guess it's acceptable for now and the purposes of this thread's discussion.


Libya NTC leader blames 'conspiracy' for recent protests
-Middle East Online

I don't know about the conspiracy claims, but if the NTC didn't see this coming they are in for some huge surprises down the road.

Civil War possible if NTC quits
-Independent Online (SA)

Dare I suggest that Civil War is not only possible, but likely, despite if the NTC quits or stays? The NTC doesn't seem to be holding the flood gates back so to speak...

Enraged Benghazi residents feel ignored, forgotten
-Daily Press

"You can see around you that there is no change. There has been no money spent on infrastructure and salaries are not being paid," said Ali al-Rabia. His voice rises in anger as he talks of how residents in Benghazi, birthplace of last year's revolution that toppled Muammar Gaddafi, had yet to see any benefit and had lost respect for the interim government

I disagree with Ali al-Rabia. There is change, for the worst. Such is the fate of many misled revolutions and it really makes one wonder who is capitalizing off of this situation?

Libya could fall into 'bottomless pit' : NTC chief
-MSNBC

Mustafa Abdel Jalil, the head of Libya's ruling National Transitional Council (NTC), warned on Sunday the country could be heading towards a "bottomless pit" after protesters stormed a government office in Benghazi when he was inside. A crowd demanding the resignation of the Libyan government smashed windows and forced their way into the NTC's local headquarters late on Saturday

I must say the 'bottomless pit' downfall began when the original governing body was toppled with the aid of international intervention without the international interventionists staying to clean up the mess. Not that they would have succeeded in fixing anything, but it would have at least have been an attempt to prevent what is beginning to unfold before our eyes.

The NTC is very weak and could easily be ousted without direct international support. And apparently the locals lean towards despising the NTC and what they stand for, so it would only enrage the population further if international support was invested into propping it up even further.

Grenades lobbed at Libyan NTC Benghazi office
-Your Middle East

Libya: Deputy Head of NTC quits after protests
-Zeenews

It appears that anyone who wants to avoid the downfall of Libyan society should have already fled months ago because I don't see any way of stopping this proverbial snowball rolling down the hill. It may be too late for NATO to fix this one at this point, no one likes the NTC and no one wants NATO involved either.

If the NTC disappears I assume that there will be half a dozen or more factions that will conduct civil war until either the nation is utterly decimated or until one of them forms a totalitarian dictatorship. Either way they look screwed to me.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
1) rebel forces were never united. And when common foe is dead the arguements about whose group gets the best parts of cake are more important then fighting remnants of enemies.

A good example: While a friend of mine was knocking about the Misrata/Zliten front, he had numerous people say to him that they would much rather be going in the opposite direction; to Benghazi.

That says it all really... and it's just as well because, to make the understatement of the decade, the situation is bloody complicated.

It appears the 'revolution' was too sudden and the international support propelled it beyond it's capacity to keep up with the pace.

For example in the American revolution it was a slow and long process, and many parties made formal agreements and concessions in order to form a transition and then more permanent governing structure.

It appears that much of this process was not present in Libya and that it was merely a heavily emotionally driven conflict without the proper intellectual and philosophical necessities required to create a sturdy foundation for which to build upon.

Of course in both Libya and the historical American revolution both situations involved international interventions, and there was much intrigue and behind the scenes meddling with typical cloak and dagger tactics, but the main difference was the coalition aspect of the local populaces.

In the US, a sturdy coalition was formed and solidified over a long process of debate and ratification, however in Libya it bore very little similarity in this respect. Perhaps this is the real problem at the core.

And when we talk about Libya, the differences between various sects of the population are so ingrained and the refusal to compromise is so great, that I am not even sure if it could have happened through legitimate ratification processes in the first place.

Too many parties are worried about having political power and exerting their influence over the other parties involved and over the nation's resources that they are failing to build the necessary unity and federation required to promote a viable nation ruled by law rather than by the whims of brutal dictators and fanatical extremists.

I am not sure if these have been posted so ..TRIPOLI — Diehards of slain Libyan dictator Moamer Kadhafi attacked a base in his one-time bastion of Bani Walid killing at least four ex-rebel fighters and wounding 20 others on Monday, a local official told AFP.

"There are at least four martyrs from the thuwar (anti-Kadhafi revolutionaries) and 20 are injured," said Mahmud Warfelli, spokesman of Bani Walid local council, in the attack -- the first major outburst of violence in the town since the end of the anti-Kadhafi conflict in October.
www.google.com...

TRIPOLI: Diehard supporters of slain Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi seized control on Monday of "the entire city of Bani Walid", his one-time bastion, after launching a brazen attack on a base there, a local official told AFP. www.channelnewsasia.com...


Libya suspends transitional government members BENGHAZI, Libya -- The head of Libya's transitional government on Sunday suspended delegates from Benghazi, the city that kicked off the movement that toppled ruler Moammar Gadhafi last year.

The suspension the latest sign of discord within the body that led the anti-Gadhafi uprising but has struggled to establish an effective government to replace his regime.

Read more here: www.kansascity.com...=cpy

NTC head may resign – if he makes it out alive’ rt.com...

A report released last week by Middle East human rights groups presents extensive evidence of war crimes carried out in Libya by the United States, NATO and their proxy “rebel” forces during last year’s war, which brought down the regime of Colonel Muammar Gaddafi. The “Report of the Independent Civil Society Fact-Finding Mission to Libya” presents findings of an investigation carried out last November by the Arab Organization for Human Rights, together with the Palestinian Center for Human Rights and the International Legal Assistance Consortium. www.wsws.org...

And to add this bit ..This article doesn't paint a good picture for Libyas neighbour ,,, Failed treasury auction
portends Egyptian disaster
By Spengler

Investors bought less an a third of the 3.5 billion Egyptian pounds (US$580 million) worth of Treasury bills offered to the market on January 22, a red flag warning that Egypt's foreign exchange position is close to the brink.

Yields on Egyptian government debt maturing in nine months jumped to nearly 16%, but the government could not place its local-currency debt to Egyptian investors, even at that exorbitant rate.

This is a new and ominous decline in the financial position of the most populous Arab country www.atimes.com...

reply to post by FlyersFan


It isn't surprising if you have seen pictures from Sirte, people fought for their leader till death, that is a leader, and the leader didn't let them down, he stayed and died for what he believed, and lead his people till death.

Reminds me of the movie "300", the inspiration which Qaddafi gave to his people, and the misery which the rebels brought to Libya, I expect the resistance to get even stronger.

Right now shops in Tripoli have been closed, and people are staying in doors because the resistance has begun street to street battles, also some sources report clashes in Benghazi.

Like Slayer said, "stay tuned".

reply to post by SLAYER69


You people are just not much informed about the truth there.

West can end all the problems in months if wanted. Like there was a gib chaos after Islamic revolution in Iran.

Iran could overcome those daily terrorist attacks after years.

But in Iraq , there is not hope.
In Afghanistan , there is no hope.

It is not that US couldn't do it. It is because they don't want the chaos to stop.

I mean , Iran could end chaos 30 years ago. Other countries can do it too.

reply to post by SLAYER69

"There are 300 pro-Gaddafi guys in that town," says Suleiman Hatir, a fighter from the eastern town of Tobruk. "They have committed crimes and they are living in Bani Walid."

Libya militias prepare to retake Bani Walid from Gaddafi loyalists

Just a little old fashion Jail break.......

Letting those arrested for "war crimes" out of jail...........

This is why we have 12000 troops ready on Malta,Right?

Originally posted by TheLoony
Good for them. They got screwed, royally, with the overthrow (unnecessary) and the setting up of a central bank was the kicker. If anyone needs to know whether it was right or wrong, there's your answer. They are now slaves to the International Banking Cartel.

Thats it in a nutshell. Rothchild isn't happy with owning the entire civilised world, now he's after Africa. I feel sorry for the new "rebels" Ghadaffi's loyalists, because theyre about to get reamed by the system...again.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


Those who fell for US parasitical plans in middle east , will pay for their stupidity.

I mean , those rebels.

the MSM had me thinking that Gadhafi loyalists were essentially erradicated?

It's great to see some men are still loyal.

The man was wrongfully persecuted and diposed.

nvm.