Russian War deaths vs Jewish deaths

reply to post by truthinfact


I will agree with you but add there is another part, free and armed societies.
It is one thing to have knowledge, as knowledge is power.
But, guns allow that knowledge to be passed on.

I am glad that people now seem to realize that the jews were not the only religion to lose people.
Many christians, muslims, atheists, Etc. lost people too, and much more than jews.
This only goes to show once again that the victors write the history.

Originally posted by freethinker123
This is an interesting topic and I didn't get a chance to post my opinion in the other thread.
Firstly as OP (and others) point out other peoples have suffered genocide, including the country I am living in, as a citizen of Serbia. In WW2 the nazis and Croatian fascists brutally slaughtered at least 100,000 Serbs in war and concentration camps etc.

However, there is another point to make here. The Jews (in that time) are not nation specific, they were scattered throughout Europe. The German assualt on jewery had nothing to do with the policy of a government and was persued against Jews in every single country in which the Germans invaded or installed puppets. This was brutal and pathological. For certain the nazis stated that Slavs (Russians, Serbs etc) were an inferior race to the Germans, but Jews were first in line for liquidation. The Jews then, with no state, had nobody to protect them and many people following WW2 felt guilty that they were unable to help as Jews were removed from their society. This feeling of guilt influenced the writing of textbooks as well as helped with the foundation of Israel.

To put this 'excuse' to one side there is one other better example than Jewish / Russian suffering. It is the numbers of Jews exterminated compared to the number of Gypsies exterminated.
Firstly neither the Gyspies of Europe or the Jews had a state - as I pointed out already so the comparison is good.

But the most important point of all is that although both sufferered genocide, most people don't even know that the Gypsies of Europe suffered genocide. In fact nobody is sure how many Gypsies perished in WW2 although some statistics suggest 500,000 people.

Whilst we should all consider why it is that everybody knows about the holocaust, we should also consider why it is that NOBODY knows about the holocaust against the Gypsies.

edit on 9-1-2012 by freethinker123 because: (no reason given)

Of the six million figure given, and roughly accepted by most, 3.5 million were murdered specifically for being Jewish. This is the current, as far as I am aware, accepted number. The remaining 2.5 million Jews were killed because they were Slavs first and foremost. While the Jews were considered economic targets for persecution, it was the Slavs that the Germans particularly hated on racial grounds. Hence all the prevarication before the systemised murder of the Reich Jews, the white, northern European ones, that nobody really had a problem once all their assets had been taken off them. The Slavs on the otherhand were rounded up, stripped and shot, to begin with, until it was realised that they would serve better purpose as slave labour. Then only Slavic Jews were summarily murdered. This was two years in advance of Operation Reinhard, or what we refer to as 'The Holocaust'

reply to post by Gwampo


1. Do you really think its reasonable to compare the deaths of enemy combatants with the deaths of innocent civilians? After all - soldiers are sent into battle with the expectation that they will either win the battle or die trying.

2. I am not minimizing the deaths of civilians anywhere but do you really think its reasonable to compare the deaths of civilian populations that supported enemy combatants (russian citizens supporting russian troops) with the intentional killing of your own population. This would be the equivalent of George Bush rounding up and killing american citizens in concentration camps as opposed to the death of Iraqi citizens as a consequence of bombing raids
.
3. Yes - the fact that jews had no place in the world to immigrate to in order to escape concentration camps has a great deal to do with it.

Tired of Control Freaks

Look into the Incident at Neshabur.

Humans have been genocidal for millenia, and look, they're still doing it.

As George Carlin explains: "Because they're pests, and, because it's fun!"

Same reason Holloywood does endless movies about the army and airborne, but none about the eastern front, although thats where European theater was decided? They portray their own. I am not aware that there have been attempts to silence those who want to speak about the soviet war deads.

Please provide some sources for this calim.

It could be true but I have certainly never heard of it before.

Originally posted by Omphale

Originally posted by freethinker123
This is an interesting topic and I didn't get a chance to post my opinion in the other thread.
Firstly as OP (and others) point out other peoples have suffered genocide, including the country I am living in, as a citizen of Serbia. In WW2 the nazis and Croatian fascists brutally slaughtered at least 100,000 Serbs in war and concentration camps etc.

However, there is another point to make here. The Jews (in that time) are not nation specific, they were scattered throughout Europe. The German assualt on jewery had nothing to do with the policy of a government and was persued against Jews in every single country in which the Germans invaded or installed puppets. This was brutal and pathological. For certain the nazis stated that Slavs (Russians, Serbs etc) were an inferior race to the Germans, but Jews were first in line for liquidation. The Jews then, with no state, had nobody to protect them and many people following WW2 felt guilty that they were unable to help as Jews were removed from their society. This feeling of guilt influenced the writing of textbooks as well as helped with the foundation of Israel.

To put this 'excuse' to one side there is one other better example than Jewish / Russian suffering. It is the numbers of Jews exterminated compared to the number of Gypsies exterminated.
Firstly neither the Gyspies of Europe or the Jews had a state - as I pointed out already so the comparison is good.

But the most important point of all is that although both sufferered genocide, most people don't even know that the Gypsies of Europe suffered genocide. In fact nobody is sure how many Gypsies perished in WW2 although some statistics suggest 500,000 people.

Whilst we should all consider why it is that everybody knows about the holocaust, we should also consider why it is that NOBODY knows about the holocaust against the Gypsies.

edit on 9-1-2012 by freethinker123 because: (no reason given)

Of the six million figure given, and roughly accepted by most, 3.5 million were murdered specifically for being Jewish. This is the current, as far as I am aware, accepted number. The remaining 2.5 million Jews were killed because they were Slavs first and foremost. While the Jews were considered economic targets for persecution, it was the Slavs that the Germans particularly hated on racial grounds. Hence all the prevarication before the systemised murder of the Reich Jews, the white, northern European ones, that nobody really had a problem once all their assets had been taken off them. The Slavs on the otherhand were rounded up, stripped and shot, to begin with, until it was realised that they would serve better purpose as slave labour. Then only Slavic Jews were summarily murdered. This was two years in advance of Operation Reinhard, or what we refer to as 'The Holocaust'

reply to post by BRAVO949


Why is it that people on this website always ask for a source? If you are so curious, do the research yourself. His claims are true.

Perhaps if people took it upon themselves to research rather than waiting for others to provide a link, we would all be better informed. This is ATS, not graduate school.

My first thoughts and feelings always go out to the disabled who were the first to be exterminated.

Put into converted vans they were killed by carbon monoxide poisoning from the redirected exhaust fumes, although they are not nation specific, they were ALL exterminated.

Cosmic..

Originally posted by steppenwolf86
reply to post by BRAVO949

 

Why is it that people on this website always ask for a source? If you are so curious, do the research yourself. His claims are true.

Perhaps if people took it upon themselves to research rather than waiting for others to provide a link, we would all be better informed. This is ATS, not graduate school.

It may be true that the number of jews killed is still distuted or the exact composition of Hitlers victims, but the propaganda I am aware of, was against jews and communism. I am not aware of propaganda against slavs. I think it was the goal from the get go, to enslave the slavs, something European nations before the Germans did a long time ago.

reply to post by Cassius666


At the moment I live in what used to be Breslau. The Poles were viewed as sub-human slavs by the Germans. Schools were not needed because they only needed to know how to count to ten and work till they died.

Steppenwolf86,

If I have your main point correct you are saying that we should remember and respect all the people who died in WWII.

All these decades later it seems that if young people know anything it is that Jews died in WWII but know virtually nothing else.

With regard to your question "Why is it that people on this website always ask for a source?" - well, anyone can say anything they dream up if they do not have to provide a source.

I have never in my extensive study of WWII ever heard that the war-time government of Germany had a policy of killing Jews from Slavic countries as a priority.

I will agree that, especially in the early days of the German invasion of Poland, Jews were killed not as Jews specifically but as citizens of Poland who were "in the way" of the German military.

German bombs dropped from aircraft and Geramn artillery shells fired from a distance were not aimed at Christian citizens of Poland or Jewish citizens of Poland - they were aimed at citizens of Poland, period. Many Jews died as a result.

Is that what the poster meant?

Or did the poster mean that Germans went into Jewish ghetto and shtetls and killed Jews becaus they were Slavs? Well, the Germans certainly did not think that Jews of any sort were Slavs. If anyone can find a German document that says the policy was to kill Slavic Jews then I will admit I am wrong.

Originally posted by steppenwolf86
reply to post by BRAVO949

 

Why is it that people on this website always ask for a source? If you are so curious, do the research yourself. His claims are true.

Perhaps if people took it upon themselves to research rather than waiting for others to provide a link, we would all be better informed. This is ATS, not graduate school.

reply to post by BRAVO949


I apologise for not responding sooner.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This is a thread that I did some years ago now, and it still stands as the most definitive summary of the current research available on the internet...and right here, exclusively for ATS. It only stretches to 2 pages and will provide you with all the information that you need. Guarenteed. Though should you have any questions, I would appreciate it if you would post them here.

All the best

Will check the thread forthwith.

In the meantime here is an excellent, in my view, speech directly related to this subject.

Originally posted by Omphale
reply to post by BRAVO949

 

I apologise for not responding sooner.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This is a thread that I did some years ago now, and it still stands as the most definitive summary of the current research available on the internet...and right here, exclusively for ATS. It only stretches to 2 pages and will provide you with all the information that you need. Guarenteed. Though should you have any questions, I would appreciate it if you would post them here.

All the best

Originally posted by BRAVO949
Will check the thread forthwith.

In the meantime here is an excellent, in my view, speech directly related to this subject.

He's largely preaching to the converted in my case, and while I admired his stance as an advocate, I think that he could have been less divisive. And anyone who refers to Rosa Luxemberg as a personal heroine is okay by me.

"I am, I was, I shall be."

Sorry - but what do you mean by "This is a thread I did some years ago"?

Did you create the tread under a different user name, spcifically KilgoreTrout?

I skimmed through every post and read all of several of them. I did not see anything that states or supports your post about Jews being killed because they were Slavs. There were some long posts that I did not read every word of, so if you could identify the exact post that supports your claim that would be appreciated.

Just a reminder, though. History is not someone's opinion. History is what is documented and what can be produced as physical evidence.

The ATS member KilgoreTrout made this statement in the thred you suggested I look at. Please read this segment from this post.

Post from ATS thread suggested

All too often here on ATS you find that those who put forward the arguments that diminish the holocaust are unable to refute simple contradictions. For example, how could the jews have died due to starvation by the supply lines being cut, when a) there is no record of supply lines being cut and b) the camps were not recieving supplies at that point in the war. If you have studied the period of the 2nd world war this is obvious, if all you have done is read one web site that has presented only the information that supports the hypothese then not so obvious.

I hope to God you do not consider that paragraph to be "history" or that is proves anything. As presented, every aspect of it is opinion, proves nothing and supports nothing.

When a person makes a statement like this "If you have studied the period of the 2nd world war this is obvious" it makes me not want to read anything else they write because it is a meaningless statement.

Originally posted by Omphale
reply to post by BRAVO949

 

I apologise for not responding sooner.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

This is a thread that I did some years ago now, and it still stands as the most definitive summary of the current research available on the internet...and right here, exclusively for ATS. It only stretches to 2 pages and will provide you with all the information that you need. Guarenteed. Though should you have any questions, I would appreciate it if you would post them here.

All the best

What I meant was that Slavs in general, Jewish or not, were viewed as sub-humans.

I am well aware of that. I agree that was a horrible attittude that the Germans had and it has not been condemned or even spoken about by the news media, movies, in literature etc. in the Wesr.

I do not think it is a conspiracy to cover it up but I think, well know, that the Jewish new media owners, publishers, and movie directors and producers have their own agenda to promote and no reason to right any wrong or even expose any wrong with regard to how the Germans treated Slavs in WWII or at any time.

I know this for a fact because I have talked to Jews who have told me this directly but German Jews treated Ost Juden (Eastern Jews) exactly the way Christian Germans treated Christian Slavs. When Russian Jews fled to Germany after the early pograms of the 20th century the German Jews were as unwelcoming as German Christians - maybe more so.

There is such thing as a Slavic Jew, by Jewish definition - however.

There was no love lost between Ost Juden and Poles either for that matter. Many if not most Ost Juden felt they were superior to Slavs and Poles and other people in Central / Eastern Europe were happy to see Jews sent off to concentration camps. Of course there were exceptions and Christians did hide or in ways help Jews.

Originally posted by steppenwolf86
What I meant was that Slavs in general, Jewish or not, were viewed as sub-humans.

Dear steppenwolf86,

I hope you can now understand why I asked Omphale to back up his / her statement with regard to an earlier post.

It has been several days now and still no response.

It is very likely that there is no way to support the original post because it is not valid.

Unlike others I don't think people usually lie on ATS. I think they believe what they are writing and may think they have read or heard something that supports what they are posting. However, we should not allow anyone to post anything without challenging them, especially an imporatant historical fact.

Originally posted by steppenwolf86
What I meant was that Slavs in general, Jewish or not, were viewed as sub-humans.